Stamden and the piercing cold passive

JinMori · April 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Passives should be more "inclusive", i don't like passives that are useless for either mag or stam.

These % modifier buffs should apply to both stam and mag.

And they should also rework some passives, like the sorc one where you get magicka back when your pet dies, that is such a *** passive. But there are more.

I agree. Another example of this is the Templar “Balanced Warrior” passive that increases Weapon Damage by 6%. Similar passives on other classes (like Sorc’s “Expert Mage”) work for both Magicka and Stamina builds, but Magicka Templar does not gain 6% Spell Damage. This is one of the reasons that Stamplar is much better than Magplar currently.

Magplar gains some 2k spell resistance, which compared to 6 % weapon damage... Come on, it's pretty clear which one is better. Just give 6 % to both. And it's not like stamplar does not benefit from the spell resistance.

Passives should be as inclusive as possible, this isn't wow, we are not playing a single specialization, these class skilline allow us to choose between stam and magicka, therefore the passives should reflect that.

There are so many just really bad passives in this game.

I think necromancer overall does passives the best way, aside from the healing and tanking tuned passives, the rest of them have some use for basically all builds., which is how it should be, even some tanking and healer passives have some use outside of their respective roles.

Instead, i think sorc has the worst passives overall.

And the rest is in the middle, still they could be way better, and more useful.

i'd also say far too much of magden's power is in passives and slotted effects. when it needs a bunch of power siphoned from those into it's actual damage skills.

I don;t think that's necessarily true though, if we compare warden skills to other classes, they are about there, the big problem is that to deal maximum dps bear is required, and pets do not fit well in content.

But if we look at abilities, sub assault is good, cliff racer is good, fetcher is one of the best st dots, winter's revenge is basically the best aoe dot after graveyard, bear does the most damage of any ulti in the game, but it comes at a big cost.

If we compare classes and the dps they can achieve we can see that usually the classes that pull the best dps, also have the best passives.

Aside from nightblade, nb, has good passives, but really bad abilities. And dk is the contrary, some good passives, but mostly pretty bad, but some really good abilities.

But, i would like to see better abilities, as well as better passives.

For example, the northern storm ulti, should have either increased duration, or more damage, the difference between this skill and elemental rage tooltip is enormous. I am a firm believer that class ultimates should generally be better.

WrathOfInnos · April 2020

JinMori wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Passives should be more "inclusive", i don't like passives that are useless for either mag or stam.

These % modifier buffs should apply to both stam and mag.

And they should also rework some passives, like the sorc one where you get magicka back when your pet dies, that is such a *** passive. But there are more.

I agree. Another example of this is the Templar “Balanced Warrior” passive that increases Weapon Damage by 6%. Similar passives on other classes (like Sorc’s “Expert Mage”) work for both Magicka and Stamina builds, but Magicka Templar does not gain 6% Spell Damage. This is one of the reasons that Stamplar is much better than Magplar currently.

Magplar gains some 2k spell resistance, which compared to 6 % weapon damage... Come on, it's pretty clear which one is better. Just give 6 % to both. And it's not like stamplar does not benefit from the spell resistance.

Passives should be as inclusive as possible, this isn't wow, we are not playing a single specialization, these class skilline allow us to choose between stam and magicka, therefore the passives should reflect that.

There are so many just really bad passives in this game.

I think necromancer overall does passives the best way, aside from the healing and tanking tuned passives, the rest of them have some use for basically all builds., which is how it should be, even some tanking and healer passives have some use outside of their respective roles.

Instead, i think sorc has the worst passives overall.

And the rest is in the middle, still they could be way better, and more useful.

i'd also say far too much of magden's power is in passives and slotted effects. when it needs a bunch of power siphoned from those into it's actual damage skills.

I don;t think that's necessarily true though, if we compare warden skills to other classes, they are about there, the big problem is that to deal maximum dps bear is required, and pets do not fit well in content.

But if we look at abilities, sub assault is good, cliff racer is good, fetcher is one of the best st dots, winter's revenge is basically the best aoe dot after graveyard, bear does the most damage of any ulti in the game, but it comes at a big cost.

If we compare classes and the dps they can achieve we can see that usually the classes that pull the best dps, also have the best passives.

Aside from nightblade, nb, has good passives, but really bad abilities. And dk is the contrary, some good passives, but mostly pretty bad, but some really good abilities.

But, i would like to see better abilities, as well as better passives.

For example, the northern storm ulti, should have either increased duration, or more damage, the difference between this skill and elemental rage tooltip is enormous. I am a firm believer that class ultimates should generally be better.

I think I’m with @ESO_Nightingale here. Warden active skills are lackluster.

Cliff Racer is “standardized” to the same damage and cost as other spammables like Elemental Weapon, but Ele Weap also brings Spell Orb and status effects. The off-balance from Racer is usually redundant in group content, and it’s damage type (magic) is the weakest because it cannot proc status effects or benefit from Engulfing Flames. Even Crushing Shock is a better active skill since it has a cheaper cost and better damage types. Cliff Racer is basically just Swallow Soul without the heal. It is used solely for the 2% damage done passive when slotted.

Deep Fissure/Sub Assault is pretty much the Warden equivalent of Blastbones, and AoE burst every 3s. However it scales with Spell/Weapon Damage with a coefficient of 1.51, while Blastbones gets a coefficient of 1.68. This means that the Warden skill is about 10% weaker than the Necro version. For the Magicka morph, this gap is partially closed by the “10% magic damage” passive, so it’s only about 4% weaker than Blastbones. But again, magic damage is inherently worse than fire, it cannot proc Burning, and with Engulfing Flames active Deep Fissure hits about 14% lower than Blastbones (assuming BB cast from melee range and Stalking Blastbones gets no extra damage).

Winter’s Revenge is good, there’s no denying that.

The bear can be hit or miss. It literally tends to miss, especially against large enemies like dragons in vSS. It’s also pure single target, and has to travel between enemies before it can do damage, making it terrible for trials like vAS and vCR.

JinMori · April 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Passives should be more "inclusive", i don't like passives that are useless for either mag or stam.

These % modifier buffs should apply to both stam and mag.

And they should also rework some passives, like the sorc one where you get magicka back when your pet dies, that is such a *** passive. But there are more.

I agree. Another example of this is the Templar “Balanced Warrior” passive that increases Weapon Damage by 6%. Similar passives on other classes (like Sorc’s “Expert Mage”) work for both Magicka and Stamina builds, but Magicka Templar does not gain 6% Spell Damage. This is one of the reasons that Stamplar is much better than Magplar currently.

Magplar gains some 2k spell resistance, which compared to 6 % weapon damage... Come on, it's pretty clear which one is better. Just give 6 % to both. And it's not like stamplar does not benefit from the spell resistance.

Passives should be as inclusive as possible, this isn't wow, we are not playing a single specialization, these class skilline allow us to choose between stam and magicka, therefore the passives should reflect that.

There are so many just really bad passives in this game.

I think necromancer overall does passives the best way, aside from the healing and tanking tuned passives, the rest of them have some use for basically all builds., which is how it should be, even some tanking and healer passives have some use outside of their respective roles.

Instead, i think sorc has the worst passives overall.

And the rest is in the middle, still they could be way better, and more useful.

i'd also say far too much of magden's power is in passives and slotted effects. when it needs a bunch of power siphoned from those into it's actual damage skills.

I don;t think that's necessarily true though, if we compare warden skills to other classes, they are about there, the big problem is that to deal maximum dps bear is required, and pets do not fit well in content.

But if we look at abilities, sub assault is good, cliff racer is good, fetcher is one of the best st dots, winter's revenge is basically the best aoe dot after graveyard, bear does the most damage of any ulti in the game, but it comes at a big cost.

If we compare classes and the dps they can achieve we can see that usually the classes that pull the best dps, also have the best passives.

Aside from nightblade, nb, has good passives, but really bad abilities. And dk is the contrary, some good passives, but mostly pretty bad, but some really good abilities.

But, i would like to see better abilities, as well as better passives.

For example, the northern storm ulti, should have either increased duration, or more damage, the difference between this skill and elemental rage tooltip is enormous. I am a firm believer that class ultimates should generally be better.

I think I’m with @ESO_Nightingale here. Warden active skills are lackluster.

Cliff Racer is “standardized” to the same damage and cost as other spammables like Elemental Weapon, but Ele Weap also brings Spell Orb and status effects. The off-balance from Racer is usually redundant in group content, and it’s damage type (magic) is the weakest because it cannot proc status effects or benefit from Engulfing Flames. Even Crushing Shock is a better active skill since it has a cheaper cost and better damage types. Cliff Racer is basically just Swallow Soul without the heal. It is used solely for the 2% damage done passive when slotted.

Deep Fissure/Sub Assault is pretty much the Warden equivalent of Blastbones, and AoE burst every 3s. However it scales with Spell/Weapon Damage with a coefficient of 1.51, while Blastbones gets a coefficient of 1.68. This means that the Warden skill is about 10% weaker than the Necro version. For the Magicka morph, this gap is partially closed by the “10% magic damage” passive, so it’s only about 4% weaker than Blastbones. But again, magic damage is inherently worse than fire, it cannot proc Burning, and with Engulfing Flames active Deep Fissure hits about 14% lower than Blastbones (assuming BB cast from melee range and Stalking Blastbones gets no extra damage).

Winter’s Revenge is good, there’s no denying that.

The bear can be hit or miss. It literally tends to miss, especially against large enemies like dragons in vSS. It’s also pure single target, and has to travel between enemies before it can do damage, making it terrible for trials like vAS and vCR.

Mmm, i think you may be correct actually, on second thought.

The reason why i had my vision on the spammable skewed is because of all the % modifiers from animal companion, so the tooltip can get a bit crazy compared to other spammables, but the skill itself is not that great.

And it only procs off balance and scales in damage if you are further away, and that is not really a good thing, as we have to get closer to drop our dots.

I still support the idea of making both abilities and passives better though, that has not changed.

Warden has a lot of skills that allow to have buffs and debuffs that are not available in unoptimized groups, and i don;t think that's necessarily bad, but some skill are way too restrictive, for example, why couldn't cliff racer just apply off balance and that's it?

Nemesis7884 · April 2020

when warden originally came out it increased physical and cold damage but then it got changed because of all the whining that warden was too strong in pvp

im doing the kill pvp achievements right now for the colors...im nearly done with most classes, while warden is still in the 20s...

ESO_Nightingale · April 2020

JinMori wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Passives should be more "inclusive", i don't like passives that are useless for either mag or stam.

These % modifier buffs should apply to both stam and mag.

And they should also rework some passives, like the sorc one where you get magicka back when your pet dies, that is such a *** passive. But there are more.

I agree. Another example of this is the Templar “Balanced Warrior” passive that increases Weapon Damage by 6%. Similar passives on other classes (like Sorc’s “Expert Mage”) work for both Magicka and Stamina builds, but Magicka Templar does not gain 6% Spell Damage. This is one of the reasons that Stamplar is much better than Magplar currently.

Magplar gains some 2k spell resistance, which compared to 6 % weapon damage... Come on, it's pretty clear which one is better. Just give 6 % to both. And it's not like stamplar does not benefit from the spell resistance.

Passives should be as inclusive as possible, this isn't wow, we are not playing a single specialization, these class skilline allow us to choose between stam and magicka, therefore the passives should reflect that.

There are so many just really bad passives in this game.

I think necromancer overall does passives the best way, aside from the healing and tanking tuned passives, the rest of them have some use for basically all builds., which is how it should be, even some tanking and healer passives have some use outside of their respective roles.

Instead, i think sorc has the worst passives overall.

And the rest is in the middle, still they could be way better, and more useful.

i'd also say far too much of magden's power is in passives and slotted effects. when it needs a bunch of power siphoned from those into it's actual damage skills.

I don;t think that's necessarily true though, if we compare warden skills to other classes, they are about there, the big problem is that to deal maximum dps bear is required, and pets do not fit well in content.

But if we look at abilities, sub assault is good, cliff racer is good, fetcher is one of the best st dots, winter's revenge is basically the best aoe dot after graveyard, bear does the most damage of any ulti in the game, but it comes at a big cost.

If we compare classes and the dps they can achieve we can see that usually the classes that pull the best dps, also have the best passives.

Aside from nightblade, nb, has good passives, but really bad abilities. And dk is the contrary, some good passives, but mostly pretty bad, but some really good abilities.

But, i would like to see better abilities, as well as better passives.

For example, the northern storm ulti, should have either increased duration, or more damage, the difference between this skill and elemental rage tooltip is enormous. I am a firm believer that class ultimates should generally be better.

I think I’m with @ESO_Nightingale here. Warden active skills are lackluster.

Cliff Racer is “standardized” to the same damage and cost as other spammables like Elemental Weapon, but Ele Weap also brings Spell Orb and status effects. The off-balance from Racer is usually redundant in group content, and it’s damage type (magic) is the weakest because it cannot proc status effects or benefit from Engulfing Flames. Even Crushing Shock is a better active skill since it has a cheaper cost and better damage types. Cliff Racer is basically just Swallow Soul without the heal. It is used solely for the 2% damage done passive when slotted.

Deep Fissure/Sub Assault is pretty much the Warden equivalent of Blastbones, and AoE burst every 3s. However it scales with Spell/Weapon Damage with a coefficient of 1.51, while Blastbones gets a coefficient of 1.68. This means that the Warden skill is about 10% weaker than the Necro version. For the Magicka morph, this gap is partially closed by the “10% magic damage” passive, so it’s only about 4% weaker than Blastbones. But again, magic damage is inherently worse than fire, it cannot proc Burning, and with Engulfing Flames active Deep Fissure hits about 14% lower than Blastbones (assuming BB cast from melee range and Stalking Blastbones gets no extra damage).

Winter’s Revenge is good, there’s no denying that.

The bear can be hit or miss. It literally tends to miss, especially against large enemies like dragons in vSS. It’s also pure single target, and has to travel between enemies before it can do damage, making it terrible for trials like vAS and vCR.

Mmm, i think you may be correct actually, on second thought.

The reason why i had my vision on the spammable skewed is because of all the % modifiers from animal companion, so the tooltip can get a bit crazy compared to other spammables, but the skill itself is not that great.

And it only procs off balance and scales in damage if you are further away, and that is not really a good thing, as we have to get closer to drop our dots.

I still support the idea of making both abilities and passives better though, that has not changed.

Warden has a lot of skills that allow to have buffs and debuffs that are not available in unoptimized groups, and i don;t think that's necessarily bad, but some skill are way too restrictive, for example, why couldn't cliff racer just apply off balance and that's it?

i think we need to make our offensive skills better, but detract that power from the sheer amount of raw damage passives/passive slots that we have. i want to make warden better from a fun and design point of view. but i don't want to make them overpowered as the passive damage we have is a bandaid for our bad design. it's just not as fun when most of your class skills feel boring and uninspired. i like what the class can offer with deep fissure and northern storm, but everything else feels like a cheap knock off version of other pre-existing skills.

Nemesis7884 · April 2020

I do think with all the other changes to stamden and other classes and skills and their current state they could think about reintroducing the physical damage bonus to the passive.... or alternatively you could add a physical penetration bonus (why because "frozen" armor is brittle)

ESO_Nightingale · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I do think with all the other changes to stamden and other classes and skills and their current state they could think about reintroducing the physical damage bonus to the passive.... or alternatively you could add a physical penetration bonus (why because "frozen" armor is brittle)

i don't think physical penetration is a good idea, because stamden specifically needs help in pve. not pvp. i think we want to try to limit the potential gain they get in pvp but increase the power they get in pve.

Nemesis7884 · April 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I do think with all the other changes to stamden and other classes and skills and their current state they could think about reintroducing the physical damage bonus to the passive.... or alternatively you could add a physical penetration bonus (why because "frozen" armor is brittle)

i don't think physical penetration is a good idea, because stamden specifically needs help in pve. not pvp. i think we want to try to limit the potential gain they get in pvp but increase the power they get in pve.

i also always try to have passives make thematically sense

what you could do is increase dot damage, thats mostly pve...if you want to be specific, stamden got added two bleeds...weapons got bleeds, you could give them an additional bonus to bleed damage (since it no longer goes through armor its not a pvp thing anymore)

that would also be thematically fitting (wounds not closing well cause of cold or something)... it might on the other hand shoehorn stamdens a little bit into bleed sets tough, but there are now quite a few of those as well

ESO_Nightingale · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I do think with all the other changes to stamden and other classes and skills and their current state they could think about reintroducing the physical damage bonus to the passive.... or alternatively you could add a physical penetration bonus (why because "frozen" armor is brittle)

i don't think physical penetration is a good idea, because stamden specifically needs help in pve. not pvp. i think we want to try to limit the potential gain they get in pvp but increase the power they get in pve.

i also always try to have passives make thematically sense

what you could do is increase dot damage, thats mostly pve...if you want to be specific, stamden got added two bleeds...weapons got bleeds, you could give them an additional bonus to bleed damage (since it no longer goes through armor its not a pvp thing anymore)

that would also be thematically fitting (wounds not closing well cause of cold or something)... it might on the other hand shoehorn stamdens a little bit into bleed sets tough, but there are now quite a few of those as well

I mean, i would be okay with piercing cold increasing bleed damage by like +15% as that's a very specific damage type, and not a widely spread. but i don't think it's as good as +6% pure physical damage instead after minor berserk is removed imo.

xaraan · April 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

10% buff to physical damage is a bit much. Maybe if it was just the poison buff it would be ok, but probably not 10% as even a Warden DPS wouldn't be using that much Ice damage when you look at the various sources of poison a DPS uses. Not talking about available skills, but skill actually used. Plus, you can still get some benefit from the ice passive, especially in PvP where Ice can be a good enchant and the ulti and a couple warden ice skills can be very useful.

Probably adding something like 10% to ice damage and 5% to poison or something similar might not be too crazy.

i don't know if you're quoting me. but i'm suggesting 6% physical and frost damage on piercing cold.

Oh, no, was just talking about the OP's suggestion. Yours is more reasonable, though I think 6% buff to all physical is a bit much. I'd still lean to just buffing poison damage if it were me. (But it's not me, it's zos, so up to them in the end)

ESO_Nightingale · April 2020

xaraan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

10% buff to physical damage is a bit much. Maybe if it was just the poison buff it would be ok, but probably not 10% as even a Warden DPS wouldn't be using that much Ice damage when you look at the various sources of poison a DPS uses. Not talking about available skills, but skill actually used. Plus, you can still get some benefit from the ice passive, especially in PvP where Ice can be a good enchant and the ulti and a couple warden ice skills can be very useful.

Probably adding something like 10% to ice damage and 5% to poison or something similar might not be too crazy.

i don't know if you're quoting me. but i'm suggesting 6% physical and frost damage on piercing cold.

Oh, no, was just talking about the OP's suggestion. Yours is more reasonable, though I think 6% buff to all physical is a bit much. I'd still lean to just buffing poison damage if it were me. (But it's not me, it's zos, so up to them in the end)

my suggestion was to remove minor berserk to better balance it out. better skills means more reason to slot them, don't have to run bird of prey to get a buff in pve.