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The "Nightblades nerf" whining logic makes absolute no sense to me.
Pr0Skygon
✭✭✭✭✭
A year or two ago, NB is by far the most OP class, in both their mag and stam version, in both PvE and PvP.
People at the time asked for a NB nerf. The NBs main, of course, disagree, and ask to buff the other classes instead.
In the last 4 patches or so, ZOS added an AOE stun for all classes, gave stamSorc (which was one of the most boring class at the time) a mechanic similar to NB Grim focus, and now ZOS is going to give everyone the ability to go invisible through the new vampire skill line (which has already been possible with potion).
And now I keep stumble upon NB mains complaining their lack of "identity" and "NB receiving indirect nerfs" and "ZOS should buff NB soon, the class is like an underdog now".
I just don't get it. Seriously, what kind of logic is this.
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
People at the time asked for a NB nerf. The NBs main, of course, disagree, and ask to buff the other classes instead.
In the last 4 patches or so, ZOS added an AOE stun for all classes, gave stamSorc (which was one of the most boring class at the time) a mechanic similar to NB Grim focus, and now ZOS is going to give everyone the ability to go invisible through the new vampire skill line (which has already been possible with potion).
And now I keep stumble upon NB mains complaining their lack of "identity" and "NB receiving indirect nerfs" and "ZOS should buff NB soon, the class is like an underdog now".
I just don't get it. Seriously, what kind of logic is this.
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
14
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well, it’s not that strong. Usually people who complain about NBs have less experience and think it’s the class that beat them when it’s the player. The overwhelming majority of pvpers are stam and magsorcs so it skews popular opinion a lot. They’ve been the strongest classes for a while and whenever one of the other classes gets close it spawns a bunch of complaint threads because they’re used to their class carrying them.
Basicly sorcs and stam all tell each other how bad they have it and reinforce each other, despite being stronger.
There’s also lots of settings. Group pvp vs BGs vs dueling vs solo which forms people’s opinions. Like when people say stam are strong, they’re not talking about group cyrodiil play. So when people talk about being weak they’re talking about the setting they don’t do well in, and others being strong they’re talking about settings where they don’t do well too.Edited by Iskiab on April 7, 2020 3:04PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten28 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, it’s not that strong. Usually people who complain about NBs have less experience and think it’s the class that beat them when it’s the player. The overwhelming majority of pvpers are stam and magsorcs so it skews popular opinion a lot. They’ve been the strongest classes for a while and whenever one of the other classes gets close it spawns a bunch of complaint threads because they’re used to their class carrying them.
Basicly sorcs and stam all tell each other how bad they have it and reinforce each other, despite being stronger.
Is this a nerf sorc thread ? Sorc in not at the top of the meta, it's just in a good spot.
Stamcro is above everything, other stam classes and magsorc/plar/dk does well and then you have the bottom 3 (magnecro/den/NB).
Going back to the thread
There is no reason to think that the new vampire skill line is a NB indirect nerf.
If dark stalker is what a stamblade really want, he can have the buffed version of it at vampire stage 1.
The new vampire is basically a magblade buff line, which was much needed.9 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭A year or two ago, NB is by far the most OP class, in both their mag and stam version, in both PvE and PvP.
People at the time asked for a NB nerf. The NBs main, of course, disagree, and ask to buff the other classes instead.
In the last 4 patches or so, ZOS added an AOE stun for all classes, gave stamSorc (which was one of the most boring class at the time) a mechanic similar to NB Grim focus, and now ZOS is going to give everyone the ability to go invisible through the new vampire skill line (which has already been possible with potion).
And now I keep stumble upon NB mains complaining their lack of "identity" and "NB receiving indirect nerfs" and "ZOS should buff NB soon, the class is like an underdog now".
I just don't get it. Seriously, what kind of logic is this.
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
1. PvP players make up a small minority here;
2. Asking for buffs to other classes != asking for ZOS to make the NB skillset widely available to all classes. I'm not sure why you think that's what we were asking for, or why you find it illogical for a class to be upset with no class identity. This is NOT what NBs had in mind when they asked for buffs to other classes...6 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Excuse me but... year or two ago... ? What does it have to do with anything ? Just because at some point, long time ago they were strong, does it mean that they should remain in a garbage can now ? ? ?
Currently NBs (both mag & stam) are in a very bad spot. Stam NB is the worst stamina class and mag NB is the worst magicka class in ESO. Multiple experience veteran players says that. You even have graphs that say that lol.
ZOS over-nerfed NBs way too much (probably to to sell Nerco), it is as simple as that.
Class comparisment - Harrowstorm
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519931/pvp-class-stengths-weaknesses-graphs-harrowstorm/p1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI2SO2vA3TQ
Class comparisment - Dragonhold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q-W0BsD6s
Not much has changed since...Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 7, 2020 3:21PM20 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A year or two ago, NB is by far the most OP class, in both their mag and stam version, in both PvE and PvP.
People at the time asked for a NB nerf. The NBs main, of course, disagree, and ask to buff the other classes instead.
In the last 4 patches or so, ZOS added an AOE stun for all classes, gave stamSorc (which was one of the most boring class at the time) a mechanic similar to NB Grim focus, and now ZOS is going to give everyone the ability to go invisible through the new vampire skill line (which has already been possible with potion).
And now I keep stumble upon NB mains complaining their lack of "identity" and "NB receiving indirect nerfs" and "ZOS should buff NB soon, the class is like an underdog now".
I just don't get it. Seriously, what kind of logic is this.
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
You very, very conveniently forget that NBs were -losing- stuff at the same time - buffs on skills (Minor Berserk, Fracture, stamina regen), had skills neutered (nerfs of Path, Crippling Grasp), ultimate cast times introduced. So it's not just other classes buffed, NBs were nerfed along the way, and now you basically have no business bringing NB to the group, other classes do the same, just, you know. Better. Class identity is not about being better than others; it's having something unique to bring, while other classes have own unique things to fit into the whole.Edited by John_Falstaff on April 7, 2020 3:36PM29 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well, it’s not that strong. Usually people who complain about NBs have less experience and think it’s the class that beat them when it’s the player. The overwhelming majority of pvpers are stam and magsorcs so it skews popular opinion a lot. They’ve been the strongest classes for a while and whenever one of the other classes gets close it spawns a bunch of complaint threads because they’re used to their class carrying them.
Basicly sorcs and stam all tell each other how bad they have it and reinforce each other, despite being stronger.
Is this a nerf sorc thread ? Sorc in not at the top of the meta, it's just in a good spot.
Stamcro is above everything, other stam classes and magsorc/plar/dk does well and then you have the bottom 3 (magnecro/den/NB).
Going back to the thread
There is no reason to think that the new vampire skill line is a NB indirect nerf.
If dark stalker is what a stamblade really want, he can have the buffed version of it at vampire stage 1.
The new vampire is basically a magblade buff line, which was much needed.
Yea, I don’t see the big deal about the new vampire passives either. It’s a knee jerk reaction I think, happens every time PTS is up.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten4 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
azjuwelz✭✭✭✭The big question is what are the advantages of the Nightblade class once the new vampire skills come?
Serious question.
I can look at every other class and point to something the offer--tanking skills, great healing line, streak, jabs, defile, purify...
I no longer see a class strength for nightblades.
That's the problem.Xbox-NA
Guildmaster of Nightmothers Deadly Deals
PVE/PVP Stamblade: Ylandra Silverthorn
PVE Magwarden healer: Raw'zl Dah Zel
PVE DK Tank: Greta Feuerwerk
PVP StamDK: Helga Feuerwerk
PVP Necro Healer: Dratha Helbain
PVE Magcro: Dorian Fey
PVE Magblade: Arivssa Thaoral
PVE Magsorc: Eldara Birchwood12 -
Feizao✭✭✭did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsPS4 NA lsoSO4P
EP - Dark Elf - MagBlade Vamp
EP - Nord - Stam/MagDk
EP - Argonian - StamCro
EP - Nord - StamPlar/Hybrid Healer
AD - Khajit - StamBlade/Tank
AD - Khajit - StormSorc/Hybrid WW
DC - Breton - MagDen1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
(you just need to scroll down):did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
If it was 8 seconds, then it would be debatable... but 3 seconds... just LOL... It is true what ppl say. RIP NBs next patch I guess. Nercblades, Wardblades, Tempblades, Sorcsblades & DKblades incoming. I can not imagine the horrors it will bring and how broken combos you will get.
NB had unique fear CC, Teleport style gap-closer, Charged attack by gathering stack with LA (Bow) and invisibility. All of it is not unique anymore and every class has access to it in either same or better way. NB was basically loosing idenity over last year and now it will be gone for good. At this point I don't think buffs will help much. Without a rework - NB class is doomed.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 7, 2020 9:54PM9 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....3 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
(you just need to scroll down):did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
If it was 8 seconds, then it would be debatable... but 3 seconds... just LOL... It is true what ppl say. RIP NBs next patch I guess. Nercblades, Wardblades, Tempblades, Sorcsblades & DKblades incoming. I can not imagine the horrors it will bring and how broken combos you will get.
NB had unique fear CC, Teleport style gap-closer, Charged attack by gathering stack with LA (Bow) and invisibility. All of it is not unique anymore and every class has access to it in either same or better way. NB was basically loosing idenity over last year and now it will be gone for good. At this point I don't think buffs will help much. Without a rework - NB class is doomed.
You need to be vampire stage 4 with the drawback that come with.
You will never be a vampire for that passive only. It's good, but not enough to take all the malus for no reason.
4 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...9 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+Skills
It’s nice to actually see the numbers. From the looks of it, yea it’s meant to mesh with NB. I think you’ll see some stage 1 vampires for those that like the passives, and stage 4 full vampires on any class. I can’t think of a mag class that wouldn’t be able to make a build out of stage 4.
The abilities look cheap, cheap enough you could make a stam or hybrid vampire.Edited by Iskiab on April 7, 2020 10:40PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.
That's a flawed logic. New skill line doesn't necessarily enhance stealth plastyle, it supersedes it. Which means you now can have same playstyle on any class, but surprise, surprise, other classes are just better in other regards. So, stealth playstyle plus superior toolkit of other classes - win win.11 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
@iCaliban you're missing this part too ^
Stage 4 vamp + Sprinting for 3 seconds straight =/= "Free cloak, on demand, no cost and no casting that consumes GCD"
If you think NB's would ever unslot an actual on demand Cloak, then you're gravely mistaken. It doesn't require an ability to cast, it doesn't mean you're not wasting a GCD... you have to sprint for 3 seconds straight. Thats wasting 3 GCD's... We also don't understand how the passive works, does damage interupt it? Will the 3 seconds stay? The numbers are still a work in progress.
8 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
@iCaliban you're missing this part too ^
Stage 4 vamp + Sprinting for 3 seconds straight =/= "Free cloak, on demand, no cost and no casting that consumes GCD"
If you think NB's would ever unslot an actual on demand Cloak, then you're gravely mistaken. It doesn't require an ability to cast, it doesn't mean you're not wasting a GCD... you have to sprint for 3 seconds straight. Thats wasting 3 GCD's... We also don't understand how the passive works, does damage interupt it? Will the 3 seconds stay? The numbers are still a work in progress.
If base cloak is superior, then its not a nb nerf. The damage buffs to vamp, something a great many NBs run, disproportionately buffs them. Which is mostly a good thing.
Biggest problem for mag blade besides damage is burst healing. The vamp rework gives them both.1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Cloak will still be better than sprinting as a vampire. You can’t sprint into sneak with vampire, but you can cloak into sneak with the vampire reduced sneak time passive.
NBs will be able to sprint (when low on mag) - cloak - sneak and stay invisible... unless a sorc streaks you down, but that’s all part of counter play.
It looks to me like they made vampire so it’d mesh well with magblade, but other classes can use it too... which makes absolute sense. They’re redoing vampire, not nightblade, and want everyone to be able to enjoy it if they want.Edited by Iskiab on April 8, 2020 3:35AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. If you thought a single-target NB ganker was bad, just wait until the Necro Grave Robber bombers get their instant stun back, (it's now AOE by the way) you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear. We're talking almost instant deletion of entire groups of people with zero counterplay.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.Edited by Langeston on April 8, 2020 11:51AM10 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
7 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.4 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
Edit : found the video -> go 9.35s
https://youtu.be/RiC-fdgDLZQ?t=569
He looses invisibilty when he stop running and it take about 3s to enter in it
Edited by Aedaryl on April 8, 2020 12:28PM1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭
When I said "significant length of duration" I simply meant that the invisibility lasts as long as you are sprinting, and with 50% reduced sprint cost that will be quite a while. As far as difficulty lining up a combo, I don't see that as being much of an issue.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
I think it will be useful both offensively and defensively.2 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭
When I said "significant length of duration" I simply meant that the invisibility lasts as long as you are sprinting, and with 50% reduced sprint cost that will be quite a while. As far as difficulty lining up a combo, I don't see that as being much of an issue.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
I think it will be useful both offensively and defensively.
Well it is an issue for attacking.
You cannot charge a heavy attack into a skill while being invisible like cloak.
You need to stop sprinting which reveals you THEN use an attack while you are not invisible anymore. That's not the same at all2 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
When I said "significant length of duration" I simply meant that the invisibility lasts as long as you are sprinting, and with 50% reduced sprint cost that will be quite a while. As far as difficulty lining up a combo, I don't see that as being much of an issue.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
I think it will be useful both offensively and defensively.
I just did a short test. On live server, I sprinted for 10 seconds to see how much stamina it consumes. With "zero" sprint cost reduction - it costed 4K stamina to sprint for 10 seconds, that is 400 stamina / second with no cost reduction. With Well-Fitted trait, CP and vampire, you can probably get this to something lower than 100 stamina / second.
Well, I think of it like... imagine if cloak was:
- "Toggle" with a 3 seconds cast time.
- You always sprint, while this effect is active.
- While active, consumes 100 resources (mag/stam) / second.
- Drinking a potion, casting an ability or dealing dmg disables the effect.
I wrote that for a better comparesment. ^
You need to sprint for it to work, so you can not cast skills, but on the other side of the coin - you don't need to slot any skill, it is almost free (does not consume resources) and you have 1 extra room on your bar. So this is more or less "on pair" with Cloak (Cloak costs resources, last for 2,9 seconds and you have to re-cast it over and over and it takes a slot on your bar).
So for a passive ? It will be probably the strongest passive in game - and will lead to many cancerous & broken builds.0 -
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