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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
BRP DW (BlackRose Prison Dual Wield) Adjustments
Expert
✭✭✭✭
Hi there, I remember Pirate Skeleton over-performing to an extent that most players were using it just because of Major Protection. Once it received its slap of nerfs people went to different sets. Very fair changes to Pirate Skeleton, but a new set BRP DW was re-introduced that provides more than Pirate Skeleton. We're talking major protection, expedition, and evasion while keeping some side damage for AOE.
Would suggest Major Protection being removed from BRP DW, or make it yield minor protection instead. This weapon set is starting to plague the game with extra tankiness, would be logical to take steps as before when we were up against Pirate Skeleton.
That's it, just feedback that I've tested and I already know it's a major concern on Live.
Cheers!
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Would suggest Major Protection being removed from BRP DW, or make it yield minor protection instead. This weapon set is starting to plague the game with extra tankiness, would be logical to take steps as before when we were up against Pirate Skeleton.
That's it, just feedback that I've tested and I already know it's a major concern on Live.
Cheers!
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
3
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Aznox✭✭✭✭✭Would suggest Major Protection being removed from BRP DW, or make it yield minor protection instead.
So your suggestion is to remove Major Protection from this set :
https://eso-sets.com/set/spectral-cloak
And that's it ? Some high quality feedback right here, ZoS team better not miss that ping
Edited by Aznox on March 30, 2020 5:18PMAznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).2 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I wouldnt call Pirate change a "fair change", it was overperforming for a lot indeed but nerf jsut killed it, instead of just balance.
Duals being suboptimal is rather subjective so apart from this Major Protection most strongest major survivability buff and zos clearly showed that they see it that way by changes of Pirate, Steadfast Hero and how it implemented for Ironblood. And thus current brp contradict a bit in its powerlevel to this vision of zos:WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).
1. Duration of buff exactly same as duration of by far weaker buff from comparable weapon - brp resto with its Major Vitality, which is not even Major Mending.
2. how this buff implemented in other sets:
A. For something that considered as strongest buff it possible to have permanent uptime without cooldown/downtime, ofc will require to spam skill but that actually easy with reduce cost of affiliated skill.
B. It is possible to get buff on demand.
So for brp its' strongest buff with high uptime that you can get on demand with theoretical no cooldown. That contradict to how this work for rest of sets, where zos to prevent set from granting "staggering power" major protection works either:
1. Being kiss-curse set that in exchange of long duration cant be used on demand and apply strong debuff with rather long cooldown (ironblood, pirate) Even Ironblood with theoretical high uptime cant de facto reach even 60% uptime reliably.
2. In exchange of possibility to be used on demand it has very low duration and ridiculously low uptime (steadfast hero)
Probably reduce duration to 2sec from 3s would be enough as it fix all contradictions from above but I guess if zos will touch set they just nerf it into oblivion.Edited by Cinbri on March 31, 2020 4:13AM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wouldnt call Pirate change a "fair change", it was overperforming for a lot indeed but nerf jsut killed it, instead of just balance.
Duals being suboptimal is rather subjective so apart from this Major Protection most strongest major survivability buff and zos clearly showed that they see it that way by changes of Pirate, Steadfast Hero and how it implemented for Ironblood. And thus current brp contradict a bit in its powerlevel to this vision of zos:WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).
1. Duration of buff exactly same as duration of by far weaker buff from comparable weapon - brp resto with its Major Vitality, which is not even Major Mending.
2. how this buff implemented in other sets:
A. For something that considered as strongest buff it possible to have permanent uptime without cooldown/downtime, ofc will require to spam skill but that actually easy with reduce cost of affiliated skill.
B. It is possible to get buff on demand.
So for brp its' strongest buff with high uptime that you can get on demand with theoretical no cooldown. That contradict to how this work for rest of sets, where zos to prevent set from granting "staggering power" major protection works either:
1. Being kiss-curse set that in exchange of long duration cant be used on demand and apply strong debuff with rather long cooldown (ironblood, pirate) Even Ironblood with theoretical high uptime cant de facto reach even 60% uptime reliably.
2. In exchange of possibility to be used on demand it has very low duration and ridiculously low uptime (steadfast hero)
Probably reduce duration to 2sec from 3s would be enough as it fix all contradictions from above but I guess if zos will touch set they just nerf it into oblivion.
Keeping constant uptime would require using 1/3 GCDs on Blade Cloak, you would only have time for one heal and one damage skill between Blade Cloak spam. Sure you can do this to troll, but you’re not a threat to anybody like this.
Suggesting it should be a 2s buff would make it completely useless. You would cast Blade Cloak, get Major Protection, cast one other skill, lose the Major Protection.
IMO sets that provide valuable buffs or debuffs based on RNG are always a bad design. A player should be able to control their set procs.1 -
nublife01✭✭✭✭A simple nerf to this set without destroying it would just be to change it from a % damage reduction to phys/spell resistance so that penetration still affects it. That along with greatly buffing spell pen on spriggan and spinners so that there is a direct strong counter to stacking resistances literally makes all the sense in the world to me.3
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A simple nerf to this set without destroying it would just be to change it from a % damage reduction to phys/spell resistance so that penetration still affects it. That along with greatly buffing spell pen on spriggan and spinners so that there is a direct strong counter to stacking resistances literally makes all the sense in the world to me.
I would almost consider taking minor protection for the entire duration instead. Sure it's not amazing and it certainly doesn't need to be neccessary given the fact that you can slot undo, but lets be real.. undo sucks. It's been broken for over a year. I'd be more than happy to get reliable minor protection uptime when I swap bars as well as being able to remove undo from my bar.
Resistance would feel pretty weak at 3s unless it was like 15k resistance or less for longer duration. I think Minor Protection at least mixes up builds because Wardens and Templars already get max uptime on it, negating the need for this set. Thats what we should want, we don't want 1 set used on every pvp setup. It's just boring.
In reality, I think it's okay how it is, they overnerfed pirate skeleton, it shouldn't be used as a basis for an argument here.
Edit: wanted to add, I think the real issue is major/minor buffs/debuffs as a whole. They aren't intuitive and major buffs are often way too powerful and difficult to balance for. I believe they should all be steamlined to 8/20% for example.Edited by MashmalloMan on March 31, 2020 3:41AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I wouldnt call Pirate change a "fair change", it was overperforming for a lot indeed but nerf jsut killed it, instead of just balance.
Duals being suboptimal is rather subjective so apart from this Major Protection most strongest major survivability buff and zos clearly showed that they see it that way by changes of Pirate, Steadfast Hero and how it implemented for Ironblood. And thus current brp contradict a bit in its powerlevel to this vision of zos:WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).
1. Duration of buff exactly same as duration of by far weaker buff from comparable weapon - brp resto with its Major Vitality, which is not even Major Mending.
2. how this buff implemented in other sets:
A. For something that considered as strongest buff it possible to have permanent uptime without cooldown/downtime, ofc will require to spam skill but that actually easy with reduce cost of affiliated skill.
B. It is possible to get buff on demand.
So for brp its' strongest buff with high uptime that you can get on demand with theoretical no cooldown. That contradict to how this work for rest of sets, where zos to prevent set from granting "staggering power" major protection works either:
1. Being kiss-curse set that in exchange of long duration cant be used on demand and apply strong debuff with rather long cooldown (ironblood, pirate) Even Ironblood with theoretical high uptime cant de facto reach even 60% uptime reliably.
2. In exchange of possibility to be used on demand it has very low duration and ridiculously low uptime (steadfast hero)
Probably reduce duration to 2sec from 3s would be enough as it fix all contradictions from above but I guess if zos will touch set they just nerf it into oblivion.
Keeping constant uptime would require using 1/3 GCDs on Blade Cloak, you would only have time for one heal and one damage skill between Blade Cloak spam. Sure you can do this to troll, but you’re not a threat to anybody like this.
Suggesting it should be a 2s buff would make it completely useless. You would cast Blade Cloak, get Major Protection, cast one other skill, lose the Major Protection.
IMO sets that provide valuable buffs or debuffs based on RNG are always a bad design. A player should be able to control their set procs.
Major protection should not be available on demand (same goes for skills like deaden pain). Major protection (and major vitality) should be only viable through class ultimates. That way classes can remain powerful and unique.
Blackrose dw/resto weapons should have more of a "maelstrom approach" where they offer unique effects without being completely overtuned, because lets face it, both the dw and resto is overtuned in their own ways.6 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I wouldnt call Pirate change a "fair change", it was overperforming for a lot indeed but nerf jsut killed it, instead of just balance.
Duals being suboptimal is rather subjective so apart from this Major Protection most strongest major survivability buff and zos clearly showed that they see it that way by changes of Pirate, Steadfast Hero and how it implemented for Ironblood. And thus current brp contradict a bit in its powerlevel to this vision of zos:WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).
1. Duration of buff exactly same as duration of by far weaker buff from comparable weapon - brp resto with its Major Vitality, which is not even Major Mending.
2. how this buff implemented in other sets:
A. For something that considered as strongest buff it possible to have permanent uptime without cooldown/downtime, ofc will require to spam skill but that actually easy with reduce cost of affiliated skill.
B. It is possible to get buff on demand.
So for brp its' strongest buff with high uptime that you can get on demand with theoretical no cooldown. That contradict to how this work for rest of sets, where zos to prevent set from granting "staggering power" major protection works either:
1. Being kiss-curse set that in exchange of long duration cant be used on demand and apply strong debuff with rather long cooldown (ironblood, pirate) Even Ironblood with theoretical high uptime cant de facto reach even 60% uptime reliably.
2. In exchange of possibility to be used on demand it has very low duration and ridiculously low uptime (steadfast hero)
Probably reduce duration to 2sec from 3s would be enough as it fix all contradictions from above but I guess if zos will touch set they just nerf it into oblivion.
Keeping constant uptime would require using 1/3 GCDs on Blade Cloak, you would only have time for one heal and one damage skill between Blade Cloak spam. Sure you can do this to troll, but you’re not a threat to anybody like this.
Suggesting it should be a 2s buff would make it completely useless. You would cast Blade Cloak, get Major Protection, cast one other skill, lose the Major Protection.
IMO sets that provide valuable buffs or debuffs based on RNG are always a bad design. A player should be able to control their set procs.
Major protection should not be available on demand (same goes for skills like deaden pain). Major protection (and major vitality) should be only viable through class ultimates. That way classes can remain powerful and unique.
Blackrose dw/resto weapons should have more of a "maelstrom approach" where they offer unique effects without being completely overtuned, because lets face it, both the dw and resto is overtuned in their own ways.
We’ll have to disagree there. The Blackrose Dual Wield and Resto are marginally useful in a few situations. They have a moderate opportunity cost to balance the strength of the buff. I don’t want to see either end up completely useless in all builds like the Blackrose Destro.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I wouldnt call Pirate change a "fair change", it was overperforming for a lot indeed but nerf jsut killed it, instead of just balance.
Duals being suboptimal is rather subjective so apart from this Major Protection most strongest major survivability buff and zos clearly showed that they see it that way by changes of Pirate, Steadfast Hero and how it implemented for Ironblood. And thus current brp contradict a bit in its powerlevel to this vision of zos:WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like there have been plenty of threads suggesting this. The set seems fine to me, balanced by the extremely short duration of the Major Protection and the fact that it is tied to dual wield (a suboptimal weapon type for tanks or PVP builds).
1. Duration of buff exactly same as duration of by far weaker buff from comparable weapon - brp resto with its Major Vitality, which is not even Major Mending.
2. how this buff implemented in other sets:
A. For something that considered as strongest buff it possible to have permanent uptime without cooldown/downtime, ofc will require to spam skill but that actually easy with reduce cost of affiliated skill.
B. It is possible to get buff on demand.
So for brp its' strongest buff with high uptime that you can get on demand with theoretical no cooldown. That contradict to how this work for rest of sets, where zos to prevent set from granting "staggering power" major protection works either:
1. Being kiss-curse set that in exchange of long duration cant be used on demand and apply strong debuff with rather long cooldown (ironblood, pirate) Even Ironblood with theoretical high uptime cant de facto reach even 60% uptime reliably.
2. In exchange of possibility to be used on demand it has very low duration and ridiculously low uptime (steadfast hero)
Probably reduce duration to 2sec from 3s would be enough as it fix all contradictions from above but I guess if zos will touch set they just nerf it into oblivion.
Keeping constant uptime would require using 1/3 GCDs on Blade Cloak, you would only have time for one heal and one damage skill between Blade Cloak spam. Sure you can do this to troll, but you’re not a threat to anybody like this.
Suggesting it should be a 2s buff would make it completely useless. You would cast Blade Cloak, get Major Protection, cast one other skill, lose the Major Protection.
IMO sets that provide valuable buffs or debuffs based on RNG are always a bad design. A player should be able to control their set procs.
Major protection should not be available on demand (same goes for skills like deaden pain). Major protection (and major vitality) should be only viable through class ultimates. That way classes can remain powerful and unique.
Blackrose dw/resto weapons should have more of a "maelstrom approach" where they offer unique effects without being completely overtuned, because lets face it, both the dw and resto is overtuned in their own ways.
The DW is extremely op, the resto is just strong imo.
PC EU
PvP only2 -
nublife01✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »A simple nerf to this set without destroying it would just be to change it from a % damage reduction to phys/spell resistance so that penetration still affects it. That along with greatly buffing spell pen on spriggan and spinners so that there is a direct strong counter to stacking resistances literally makes all the sense in the world to me.
I would almost consider taking minor protection for the entire duration instead. Sure it's not amazing and it certainly doesn't need to be neccessary given the fact that you can slot undo, but lets be real.. undo sucks. It's been broken for over a year. I'd be more than happy to get reliable minor protection uptime when I swap bars as well as being able to remove undo from my bar.
Resistance would feel pretty weak at 3s unless it was like 15k resistance or less for longer duration. I think Minor Protection at least mixes up builds because Wardens and Templars already get max uptime on it, negating the need for this set. Thats what we should want, we don't want 1 set used on every pvp setup. It's just boring.
In reality, I think it's okay how it is, they overnerfed pirate skeleton, it shouldn't be used as a basis for an argument here.
Edit: wanted to add, I think the real issue is major/minor buffs/debuffs as a whole. They aren't intuitive and major buffs are often way too powerful and difficult to balance for. I believe they should all be steamlined to 8/20% for example.
I just think % damage reduction is a terrible mechanic that has caused this tank meta. It is literally why necro's are so strong. If there is a passive to resist damage there should be a passive to penetrate it plain and simple.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Major protection is one of the top three buffs in the game. People will use whatever gives it to them. So either remove it from the game entirely or live with it. Take Major Protection out, then something else entirely becomes "over performing" then people start whining to remove that.
What they need to do is make ALL of the major buffs/debuffs harder to get. That includes major brutality/sorcery. Major brutality and sorcery should have less availability than minor brutality/sorcery - and those two are rare. Minor protection and berserk are just stupid now. Everything has it.
The necro implementation is actually a pretty good design, much better than the insane, on demand uptime you get from BRP DW. The availability is tied to having an available corpse, and duration to the number of corpses. It is easy to use PVE, and much more unreliable in PVP. You could tweak that by either limiting it to corpses the caster generates/kills, or reduce the duration per corpse.
Edited by katorga on March 31, 2020 2:28PM0