Skill gap isn't wide enough

LadyNalcarya · March 2020

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Sustain is easier, which is nice, because most of my builds are so highly tuned that even 1 wrong cast required 1-2 heavy attacks to regain sustain - doing that is really annoying but I also dont like sacraficing stuff for sutain. So like a pre-teen-dopamine-junkie I will enjoy this "resources dont matter if you weave" system.

As for the gap. Top players did 50-60k unbuffed, unexperienced players did 8k. The gap needed closing, how much is to be debated but something needed to be done.

This could be fixed by teaching players. Weaving is an essential dps mechanic, but it's not explained anywhere in game. It's unreasonable to expect a casual player to google stuff and watch youtube tutorials, most people won't do that so the basics must be explained in game. Skill advisor is a thing, and people seem to actually follow it (look at those magsorcs with clannfears), but it's kinda misleading and outdated. I think they should just buff heavy attack/werewolf easy mode builds (for those who cant light weave) and add tutorials, this way they could raise the floor without breaking the whole system.

eso_lags · March 2020

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

What a terrible excuse. If you cant put out the damage then dont do the content. You cant expect to be hand held through everything. Or you could always take the time to work on your build and rotation to get higher numbers to where a guild will accept you and then run content when you can. Maybe not a core team but that doesnt seem to be what you would want anyway if you cant play consistently.

Or find a more casual guild that also does trials. There is just no excuse for people that cant or wont try harder and its sad to see zos try to make excuses for them at the expense of competitive players.

Its not even this change that bothers me as much as it is the whole mindset of it. Players with high APM do better, well no ***. The skill gap is too much, well why wouldnt it be? Why reward people for not trying as hard as others? What competitive mmo does this ***? And it will only get worse, they've been dumbing this game down since one tamriel little by little. And this mindset is so bad for small scale, competitive, pvp players.

dontpickmeimbad · March 2020

Marto wrote: »

I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.

Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.

I can't speak for other games than elder scrolls and gw2, but many of gw2's dps rotation require more APM than eso rotations do in order to maximize dps. Considering that you have permanent quickness in optimized groups, the average skill on most classes takes less than 0.5 seconds to execute, thus puts the required APM to play it on a higher level than eso. Gw2 players just don't complain as much about it (but they complain about plenty other things in return).

There are so many misconceptions among players/forum users in regards to both, other games as well as eso combat, that I am not surprised that the devs don't often take advice from the player base. However, I guess that this is similar for all or least most video games: Players of every game think that their game is the most skillful, that they know better than the devs, the devs never listen, etc.

ZarkingFrued · March 2020

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

Maybe you shouldn't expect to do end game content if you don't play consistently? This game is one that some people sink 1000's of hours into a year. There's no point in them sinking that time in if they can just beat all of the hardmode content with zero dedication. They will move on. I'm not trying to be mean, but it's not realistic for everyone to be equally powerful in a MASSIVE multiplayer Online RPG.

ZOS_Volpe · March 2020

Greetings,

We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.

leepalmer95 · March 2020

APM is literally irellevant, different builds, classes, situations all have different apm. Nothing to do with the combat of this mmo. Some dev saw a SC2 stream or something.

They should be trying to increase the average skill of the average player instead of sugar coating 99% of the game for them and giving them no tutorials/ inventives to improve. There are people who have played the game for years whose entire 'skill' is to use a skill then light attack with a bow 8 times.

Catering to those type of players won't achieve anything. Theres no help for them.

eso_lags · March 2020

leepalmer95 wrote: »

APM is literally irellevant, different builds, classes, situations all have different apm. Nothing to do with the combat of this mmo. Some dev saw a SC2 stream or something.

They should be trying to increase the average skill of the average player instead of sugar coating 99% of the game for them and giving them no tutorials/ inventives to improve. There are people who have played the game for years whose entire 'skill' is to use a skill then light attack with a bow 8 times.

Catering to those type of players won't achieve anything. Theres no help for them.

Exactly. I've played so many mmos and eso is one of the most casual/beginner friendly mmos I have ever seen. Too easy in most cases if you ask me. People should go try to play an mmo where everything is hard and players are constantly setting you back. Maybe then they would have some perspective.

Regardless the combat is so intricate and well done in eso (when it works) that its fun because you can actually outplay someone or multiple people based on your skill and experience. And by skill being knowledge of the game, your class, your opponents class, various builds, sets, timing, etc. But if they take that away whats left? And the tone of that post seems like thats the direction they want to head in.

Like I said before people are going to start spouting this nonsense now that gina posted it. I've already seen them doing it. "The skill gaps too high, players with have higher APM have an unfair advantage". Now they will act like this has always been a hot topic, and it hasnt. Im just mind blown that zos would admit they feel this way, and worried about where this path leads us. Dont reward players for playing good or fast or accurately, dont incentivize others to try harder.. No, just make it easier for them to do better without trying harder, in other words make it easier for them to be mediocre. Sad.

karekiz · March 2020

dontpickmeimbad wrote: »

Players of every game think that their game is the most skillful, that they know better than the devs, the devs never listen, etc.

Ohh god this is so true.

I remember when WoW was launching people that played EQ1 were calling it a baby game because you could SOLO quests, and didn't even have to do a CORPSE RUN. Could you imagine NOT having to group and learn roles? Not having to learn to kite at roughly level 12 of 50? Learning how to root rot in your teens? Such skill-less game would never be good.

Rikumaru · March 2020

Marto wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.

I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.

Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.

Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.

It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).

The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.

ESO's combat is slow. Not only is it slow, but precise aiming isn't even required. If you think the game requires high APM because someone needs to press 2 buttons in a second then you have bigger issues you need to clear up. Players can hit 2 KPS by smashing their face on the keyboard, it's really not difficult. Also dodging, blocking and using abilities at the correct timing is exactly how the game should operate.

You want to compare it to other games? Okay sure, look at league for an example. One of the most popular games in the world with a skill ceiling so high that the most gifted players in the world can spend their entire lives trying to improve and will never reach the skill ceiling. Other examples? Rhythm games such as osu you need insanely high KPS alongside aiming in one of the gametypes to play it to a high standard. It's high enough KPS for the players to actually need to physically train to improve. Don't think I need to go over the shooter genre, as I'm sure even someone like you are aware of the skill it takes to play a competitive shooter.

"Oh but this is an MMO" I can hear you already saying. Well, okay what about BDO then? A game which encourages and shows tutorials of real animation cancelling with higher KPS counts than ESO will ever need. Hows that for comparisons?

IAVITNI · March 2020

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

I'm in guilds that i literally never run with and have been in one for almost 4 years. In those 4 years I've probably done 10 trials with them? It's a poor argument.

There should really be a dps check to start queuing for vet dungeons. Gives newer players something to work for and makes it so you don't have to carry.

I can pull 30k dps in horrid gear no buffs purple weapons. Stamplars can pull insane parses just by spamming jabs, no rotation needed.

Two easy solutions for this are
1: actually balance classes so that if a stamplar has an easy rotation, other classes do too
2: encourage people to actually learn the game instead of handing out achievements like participation ribbons

Bryath · March 2020

I feel like other MMOs I've played (DaoC, EQ2, Aion) had a much smaller 'skill gap', which seems odd since in those games you needed to juggle 2-4 12key hotbars. I have no data to back that up, of course, but I don't recall many situations in those games where you felt like you weren't contributing much to a group or had a groupmate who couldn't pull his weight.
It seems to me that PvE grouping would be less quarrelsome, and PvP would be more enjoyable for most, if top players were 50-100% more effective than the average player instead of 400% like it is now.

Victor_Blade · March 2020

All the PvP newbies who got animation cancelling and light attacks nerfed so they can play slow heavy attack builds, thank you. Now we don't have to run proper PvP build anymore. Just heavy attack ultimate you to death on every class.

I hope you don't end up hurting yourself more when you realise you can't adapt faster than the people who bullied you into making rant posts about how animation cancelling is bad game design.

Vahrokh · March 2020

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Sustain is easier, which is nice, because most of my builds are so highly tuned that even 1 wrong cast required 1-2 heavy attacks to regain sustain - doing that is really annoying but I also dont like sacraficing stuff for sutain. So like a pre-teen-dopamine-junkie I will enjoy this "resources dont matter if you weave" system.

As for the gap. Top players did 50-60k unbuffed, unexperienced players did 8k. The gap needed closing, how much is to be debated but something needed to be done.

I can literally show you that you can do 32k with *one* attack (my record is 37k and, of course, I forgot saving the pic!).

So, what excuse is there to do 8k?

xF1REFL1x · March 2020

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

There are great guilds out there wanting players to join. I went out of my comfort zone to join one but am so glad I did. We are always helping players learn trials, raise their dps, aquire better gear to grow together as a guild and make friends. You don't need to be on all the time playing to join a guild... there are apps for our phones we use to keep everyone up to date with trials, builds, events, etc. No skill gap needs to change... many players just need to seek out players who are willing to help like most of us did... because we wanted to improve. I suggest finding a guild and giving it a shot!

validifyedneb18_ESO · March 2020

xF1REFL1x wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

There are great guilds out there wanting players to join. I went out of my comfort zone to join one but am so glad I did. We are always helping players learn trials, raise their dps, aquire better gear to grow together as a guild and make friends. You don't need to be on all the time playing to join a guild... there are apps for our phones we use to keep everyone up to date with trials, builds, events, etc. No skill gap needs to change... many players just need to seek out players who are willing to help like most of us did... because we wanted to improve. I suggest finding a guild and giving it a shot!

In my experience, while the social aspect of guilds is great, many people reach a (pretty low) wall in terms of improvement where their either cannot be bothered to farm out transmute, dont practice LA weaving, cant run vMA or wont build a zoosorc to do it the easy way. There is also another angle which I took, which is I dont want to play the meta but the meta is all there is for good DPS. I had a 25k DPS character, and while it would easily outsurvive both tanks in every pull, it was also an unfairly-low level of DPS to take to a trial.

xF1REFL1x · March 2020

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

xF1REFL1x wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

There are great guilds out there wanting players to join. I went out of my comfort zone to join one but am so glad I did. We are always helping players learn trials, raise their dps, aquire better gear to grow together as a guild and make friends. You don't need to be on all the time playing to join a guild... there are apps for our phones we use to keep everyone up to date with trials, builds, events, etc. No skill gap needs to change... many players just need to seek out players who are willing to help like most of us did... because we wanted to improve. I suggest finding a guild and giving it a shot!

In my experience, while the social aspect of guilds is great, many people reach a (pretty low) wall in terms of improvement where their either cannot be bothered to farm out transmute, dont practice LA weaving, cant run vMA or wont build a zoosorc to do it the easy way. There is also another angle which I took, which is I dont want to play the meta but the meta is all there is for good DPS. I had a 25k DPS character, and while it would easily outsurvive both tanks in every pull, it was also an unfairly-low level of DPS to take to a trial.

I started out with a 25k stamblade. I was only running easy stuff with my new guild but as uncomfortable as it was sent my parse to the guy who I saw was very good on a stamblade and after about a month was hitting up to 80k. These guys would actually watch me parse and helped me improve my rotation and gear setup. I'm finally in their core team. I've transmuted what they wanted me to... switch classes, whatever they asked me to do that was better for the team I would do. It's up to every player to decide how they want to grow in this game... wish you the best in your pursuit.

Papachico · March 2020

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

60-90k gap? the fact that you are just incompetent at using a LA between every skill or in your case representing this gap using gear at all is indeed the nightmare you should and will deal with.

TheFM · March 2020

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

xF1REFL1x wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.

There are great guilds out there wanting players to join. I went out of my comfort zone to join one but am so glad I did. We are always helping players learn trials, raise their dps, aquire better gear to grow together as a guild and make friends. You don't need to be on all the time playing to join a guild... there are apps for our phones we use to keep everyone up to date with trials, builds, events, etc. No skill gap needs to change... many players just need to seek out players who are willing to help like most of us did... because we wanted to improve. I suggest finding a guild and giving it a shot!

In my experience, while the social aspect of guilds is great, many people reach a (pretty low) wall in terms of improvement where their either cannot be bothered to farm out transmute, dont practice LA weaving, cant run vMA or wont build a zoosorc to do it the easy way. There is also another angle which I took, which is I dont want to play the meta but the meta is all there is for good DPS. I had a 25k DPS character, and while it would easily outsurvive both tanks in every pull, it was also an unfairly-low level of DPS to take to a trial.

I can do25 k dps by spamming a single ability, how on earth can it be that low?