Aznarb wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

It's a buff to experienced players who play a tank like they play a DD. People who light-weave their abilities. People who are able to quickly light-attack and then just as quickly re-engage their block. (i.e., "High APM")

But I'd say that for most tanks, this would be a nerf. A lot of people play support roles because they can't manage the high-APM finger gymnastics needed to be a DD.

It also means you can't get a burst of stamina in an emergency. A single heavy attack restores 2830 stamina on my tank--this is with 12% in Tenacity and the Revitalize heavy armor passive. And a heavy attack with a 1H&S is very quick; it's only a 0.8s channel.

So in the span of 0.8s, you can gain 2.8K stamina. There are times when the proverbial brown waste matter is hitting the proverbial fan, when I'm preoccupied with just staying alive, when I'm most likely clenching and permablocking, and during that time, if I notice that I'm getting low on stam, I can usually find an opportunity to drop block for less than a second and I've gotten back a nice burst of stam to sustain me. You can't get a burst of resources like that with light attacks.

So, in some cases, this would be a buff. If it's a high-APM player who doesn't really block-cast and who weaves everything, in a fight where things are going well (and thus they probably won't need a burst of stam in a pinch), yea, I'd say it's a buff.

But it's otherwise a nerf. And I would say that overall, it's a nerf. And a big one at that.

More importantly, it's a change that does the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goal of lowering the effects of skill gaps. The kinds of tanks that will benefit from this are the experienced tanks. And the people hurt by this the most are the new ones who will be permablocking much of the time.

well said

That's why I asked him. Haha. I dont claim to be a tanking expert, but @code65536 is as skilled and knowledgeable about tanking and ESO in general as anyone I know. As I stated, it smelled like a buff to me. I am certainly above average on my APM, and I 100% play a tank like a DPS. I weave everything I can, it's just second nature at this point.

I'm doing the same on each of my healer (less since last patch, A/C cause to many skill not firing, boring) and even if I wont weave, I don't need more mana regen, I've enough with pot (I barely use them if I don't need buff) and Orb.

The Tank of my group never feel the need to LA or HA too.
He barely need orb too, so..

It's mostly about build and playstyle.
No one force the OP to weave with his tank, it's not a sustain nerf, just a change.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

It's a buff to experienced players who play a tank like they play a DD. People who light-weave their abilities. People who are able to quickly light-attack and then just as quickly re-engage their block. (i.e., "High APM")

But I'd say that for most tanks, this would be a nerf. A lot of people play support roles because they can't manage the high-APM finger gymnastics needed to be a DD.

It also means you can't get a burst of stamina in an emergency. A single heavy attack restores 2830 stamina on my tank--this is with 12% in Tenacity and the Revitalize heavy armor passive. And a heavy attack with a 1H&S is very quick; it's only a 0.8s channel.

So in the span of 0.8s, you can gain 2.8K stamina. There are times when the proverbial brown waste matter is hitting the proverbial fan, when I'm preoccupied with just staying alive, when I'm most likely clenching and permablocking, and during that time, if I notice that I'm getting low on stam, I can usually find an opportunity to drop block for less than a second and I've gotten back a nice burst of stam to sustain me. You can't get a burst of resources like that with light attacks.

So, in some cases, this would be a buff. If it's a high-APM player who doesn't really block-cast and who weaves everything, in a fight where things are going well (and thus they probably won't need a burst of stam in a pinch), yea, I'd say it's a buff.

But it's otherwise a nerf. And I would say that overall, it's a nerf. And a big one at that.

More importantly, it's a change that does the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goal of lowering the effects of skill gaps. The kinds of tanks that will benefit from this are the experienced tanks. And the people hurt by this the most are the new ones who will be permablocking much of the time.

well said

That's why I asked him. Haha. I dont claim to be a tanking expert, but @code65536 is as skilled and knowledgeable about tanking and ESO in general as anyone I know. As I stated, it smelled like a buff to me. I am certainly above average on my APM, and I 100% play a tank like a DPS. I weave everything I can, it's just second nature at this point.

I'm doing the same on each of my healer (less since last patch, A/C cause to many skill not firing, boring) and even if I wont weave, I don't need more mana regen, I've enough with pot (I barely use them if I don't need buff) and Orb.

The Tank of my group never feel the need to LA or HA too.
He barely need orb too, so..

It's mostly about build and playstyle.
No one force the OP to weave with his tank, it's not a sustain nerf, just a change.

HA on tank is very common atm, especially for longer fights. It is definitely a sustain nerf.

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

As i LA on my tank as if im on an dps this change seems to me as an buff as HA leaves you open to an big hit more often then not and LA doesn't and having an slow constant income of stam with LA over needing to put yourself in an bad spot doing an HA sounds like an better way to tank

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Like I said, it about playstyle and build.
Our Tank never, ever, used a HA since Frostvault monster set was released.
This set is very strong and every tank struggling should use it.

She also use infused jewel with CD-pot reduction.
And the classic Alkosh-Yolna (most of the time can switch depend content) everything with sturdy.

Don't know if it will help you, I just let this here.
I don't said HA is not common, just they're not needed.

Your tank wears Stonekeeper day to day to all content?

...and he keeps calling himself a tank?

(Or, rephrasing that: of course, if you don't care about your group's performance and your duty as support role, you can build in such a way that you won't have to resort to HAs for resources often, but you know, most of us tanks do care.)

We don't do scoring and we cleaned almost everything, so they're is no need to change, also our off-tank use a 3rd Sympho set so we don't need more support for ressource and on most trial bloodspawn isn't needed, Earthgore still used in VCR+ run obviously, but that all.
So yeah she keep it and do is job great despite you like it or not.

I can't even find a proper response to that. I just can hope you realize how narrow-minded it is, to say "you can build a selfish tank with good sustain, therefore HA resource return nerf is a non-issue". People who say that: 1) do not understand the philosophy of a support role, 2) are the reason why the game keeps getting dumbed down. In fact, there's only one step from such statement to: "you can build a dungeon team out of 3 DDs and clear things faster, therefore if healers are nerfed, it's a non-issue, because healers aren't needed".

So, thank you for "valuable advice", of course, but as a tank, I'll keep wearing support sets as needed for the group and won't be considering selfish builds as a valid solution for sustain nerfs.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Like I said, it about playstyle and build.
Our Tank never, ever, used a HA since Frostvault monster set was released.
This set is very strong and every tank struggling should use it.

She also use infused jewel with CD-pot reduction.
And the classic Alkosh-Yolna (most of the time can switch depend content) everything with sturdy.

Don't know if it will help you, I just let this here.
I don't said HA is not common, just they're not needed.

Your tank wears Stonekeeper day to day to all content?

...and he keeps calling himself a tank?

(Or, rephrasing that: of course, if you don't care about your group's performance and your duty as support role, you can build in such a way that you won't have to resort to HAs for resources often, but you know, most of us tanks do care.)

We don't do scoring and we cleaned almost everything, so they're is no need to change, also our off-tank use a 3rd Sympho set so we don't need more support for ressource and on most trial bloodspawn isn't needed, Earthgore still used in VCR+ run obviously, but that all.
So yeah she keep it and do is job great despite you like it or not.

I can't even find a proper response to that. I just can hope you realize how narrow-minded it is, to say "you can build a selfish tank with good sustain, therefore HA resource return nerf is a non-issue". People who say that: 1) do not understand the philosophy of a support role, 2) are the reason why the game keeps getting dumbed down. In fact, there's only one step from such statement to: "you can build a dungeon team out of 3 DDs and clear things faster, therefore if healers are nerfed, it's a non-issue, because healers aren't needed".

So, thank you for "valuable advice", of course, but as a tank, I'll keep wearing support sets as needed for the group and won't be considering selfish builds as a valid solution for sustain nerfs.

If this thing goes live, I likely won't have a choice but do it too XD

I mean, there's always a choice. My subscription ends less than a month from now, so I'm considering better pastures. Would leave ESO to entitled HA spammers who also need a medal, to meat shields in Stonekeeper that call themselves tanks. Every game's born, lives and dies, and I could always use some free time elsewhere.

And yet, you still not giving any decent answer and still act like a somehow "better" player.
Which make me think, you're not really one and just act like, like many in this forum.
The same type of guy who said everywhere "i quit and wont come back !" but yet, they're all still here..
Since it's obvious now you not gonna provide me any answer about the subject, I wish you a good day.

I thought you'd already get by now that after declaring that Stonekeeper is a thing that makes HA nerfs a non-issue, few would actually care what you think. ^^ Show logs with 100% major force uptime, and then you can claim tanks don't need Bloodspawn and can do with Stonekeeper. But it's obvious that you're not going to provide those.

And yes, I've spent seven nice months away from ESO, and it's a non-issue to spend no end of them away again. Forums? That's the kind of circus that I can watch regardless of whether I'm in game or not.

zvavi wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

The fun thing here is : you don't bring any useful information.
So, tell me, what should she use as monster set since you seem to have an incredible secret ?

We don't need more ressource : so no need sympho on here, 3 is enough for our group.
We don't need more Horn uptime, we're already at 100% uptime, so no need Bloodspawn.
Earthgore for obvious mec' in VCR like said before.
Warden set ? We don't need more mitigation and MT is most of the time to far from group for this.
Throvokun (don't remember th exact name) ? We never feel the need to have an AoE minor maim.

Gonna be honest, I don't see.
So if instead of being rude for no reason, I'll be glad if you give me your point.

Yes but consider this, what if she could sustain with heavy attacking, and wear for example, thuurvakun. I mean yes, you dont need the minor aoe maim, but it is better than nothing, and can save the group. Yes, since resources from stonekeeper can be received by changing your play style.

In addition you said she wears it for all content, i dont believe you have 100% warhorn in dungeons, i dont believe dds have all the sustain they need in dungeons (specifically pug). I dont believe aoe minor maim is not useful in vBRP or vDSA.