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An Objective Look At The Proposed LA/HA Changes

Skjaldbjorn
Skjaldbjorn
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AN OBJECTIVE LOOK AT THE PTS ATTACK CHANGES
For this post, I wanted to give an objective, precise perspective from an end-game PVE player to highlight some of the good, some of the bad, and some of the (likely) unintended consequences of the proposed changes.

THE GOOD:
All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.

This is actually a terrific change that opens up build diversity. It won’t see much use in end-game PVE content, but it actually enables players the freedom to do things “their way” a little more and shouldn’t carry any negative consequences.


[*] Heavy Attacks no longer restore any resources.
[*] Partially Charged Heavy Attacks (also called Medium Attacks) now start scaling at the same damage as Light Attacks, and scale up to a maximum of their respective cap, to ensure they always deal more damage than a Light Attack but never more than a fully-charged Heavy Attack.
[*] Heavy Attacks now do varying damage based upon their cast time, and are built to always deal approximately 10% more DPS when weaving them with abilities when compared to Light Attack weaving.


I bunched all these changes together for simplicity. As much as players are confused here, this actually makes a ton of sense. Heavy attacks should do more damage than light attacks. You spend longer channeling them, it’s common sense. No issues here at all.


All weapon-based Light Attacks will restore 200 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.

This is…interesting. It has some real potential, but also some very bad consequences we’re going to get into later. This change is kind of a 50/50 on whether it’s actually good or bad for the long-term health of the game.



THE BAD:
Decreased the damage of Light Attacks by approximately 78%, and streamlined their cooldowns to have less variance between weapon types.

This is actually terrible. Like, this is one of the worst proposed changes I have seen yet in ESO. Do light attacks need to be nerfed? Yeah, probably. The power creep in ESO is still quite absurd and reducing LA damage is a good way to blanket bring damage down without leaving some classes stranded. Instead of this, I would propose something along the lines of;

Light Attack damage reduced by ~30-40%

This way, you can bring it down further if the ultimate goals aren’t being met without completely dismantling a LA rotation playstyle. Isn’t the point to have the freedom to play in a multitude of different ways?


Empower: This buff type now increases the damage of your next fully-charged Heavy Attack by 2500, rather than increasing Light Attack damage by 40%.

I get the idea behind this change, but it makes skills like Wrecking Blow feel absolutely horrendous. This is a change that makes sense in context but is actually pretty bad in actual practice.



UNINTENDED (?) CONSEQUENCES:
This is the bread and butter of what I really wanted to touch on, because this is the part that Zenimax missed in Summerset with the initial shift to LA heavy rotations. It ended up giving us a Nightblade meta for a ~year because the supporting sustain changes weren’t addressed until later.

The biggest issue/concern with what is being proposed here is the heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach, as well as the realism that the needed paired changes won’t come immediately. You guys have a history of making sweeping changes to core mechanics and then saying “now wait six months to see our ideas fleshed out”. That’s poor game design. Changes like this have to come with their supporting changes in one package, or not at all.


RACIAL DISCREPENCIES:
This needs to be broached IMMEDIATELY if these changes are to go through. The proposed changes would funnel every DPS into one of two races; Orc or High Elf. Race diversity (what little there is) would die instantly beyond RP reasons. Orcs and High Elves are the “raw power” races who have their core weakness as sustain. With the proposed LA changes, there’s no reason at all to play anything else, as they can easily sustain their LA rotation with no drawbacks.

This dismantles the entire purpose behind the initial race changes. If this went through, I can only imagine the backlash as players demanded more race change tokens. We selected our races after the initial rework with the game state in mind. It is ludicrous to expect players to dump significant money into the game every time you make these sweeping changes. Min/max is a reality, and if you want your end-game players here after this is released, this MUST be addressed, either through race rebalancing, a new race passive system, or free race change tokens, and I don’t mean like…two.


DK META?:
This brings back memories of the “dev enforced” Nightblade and Necro metas. DKs having the only tool in the game to ramp heavy attack damage could quickly devolve into a DK-only meta, the likes of which we saw shades of during Morrowind. It’s vitally important when making changes this big to critical core systems that the needs of all classes be addressed IMMEDIATELY, not “down the road sometime”. You guys have struggled badly with balance previously, and this seems like another step in that woeful direction.


BASH WEAVING:
Currently on the PTS, bash weaving does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than light attacks. Bash weaving is already a problem, but now you are replacing the “APM Issues” surrounding light attack weaving with the same issues, in fact much worse, surrounding bash-weaving. Combat is going to become a toxic hellhole if 5-6k of your DPS is coming from bashing, which we’re already seeing. Bashing shouldn’t even do meaningful damage without a shield, as that makes zero sense contextually, but this change pushes bash-weaving into the central DPS mechanic field instead of a secondary option to squeeze out a bit more DPS. That is a bad, bad, BAD idea, that is directly counter-intuitive to everything you claim to want to accomplish with these changes. If players can’t light attack weave, you think they can effectively BASH WEAVE!?


PAINFUL TRUTH:
So, this last tidbit if just realism. We end-gamers aren’t going back to heavy attack rotations. You’d have to buff heavy attack damage like 200% to make it worth it. We’re not asking for our “APM” (which is nonsensical in this scope but whatever) to dominate everyone, but we should be rewarded for being able to weave effectively, and this doesn’t do that. It’s too heavy-handed and reactionary, and I don’t mean this offensively, but it caters to the lowest common denominator.

In WoW, which I played at the very high end-game for six and a half years, the game saw massive lulls in players and subs when Blizzard elected to cater to more casual players, through things like “welfare epics” and “dumbing down” class rotations. Don’t make that mistake.

Bridge the gap, raise the floor, lower the ceiling some, but don’t just scrap some of the really good, thoughtful changes that have come down the pipes.

IN CONCLUSION:
I understand the overall goal here, but I think there’s better ways to accomplish it. Has anyone considered having sustain NOT tied to attacks? What if sustain was a class + race combination, and instead light/heavy attacks were themed around the rotation you prefer. If heavy attacks did 2-3x more damage than a light attack, it would give them some level of viability and actually enable choice, particularly if sustain was not at all tied to attacks. If you buff in-class and in-race sustain and opened the doors for the concept of sustaining a rotation not to be intrinsically chained to something many deem to be too high of a skill floor, more players would be able to engage.

For example, if you used a light attack rotation and aren’t good at weaving in the current meta, your DPS will drop and you’ll likely run out of resources. That’s a very ugly two-headed beast. However, if light attack damage was lowered in favor of heavy attacks being buffed and class (read: not weapon) skill damage rising slightly, to put more onus on players’ ability to use their skills properly, coupled with sustain changes proposed above, this would resolve a litany of issues.

1. The DPS loss for missing weaves would be lower
2. Sustain is completely self-contained within the kit, so poor weaving isn’t as detrimental
3. Race diversity blooms even farther and becomes more expansive
4. Heavy attack rotations become more viable
5. Rotations are more variable and open to playstyle adaptations
6. Classes can be stronger inherently through class skills, which most players seem to want

Just saying, game design isn’t as hard as you’re making it every year or two.
Edited by Skjaldbjorn on March 24, 2020 8:59AM
  • ElvenVeil
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    One of the common complaints I hear in eso among most pvpers is that there is too much tank meta.. decreasing light attack damage will only further the 'tank meta'. do light attacks do too much damage atm ? ofc they don't, otherwise you wouldn't see complaints about enemies being too tanky in the first place...

    Above it all I find the timing unbelievably stupid .. the last year or so of eso has been turbulent to say the least. Constant changes in random directions forcing people to change builds every few months.. Then the promised performance fix that clearly made the game worse than before for a lot of players. What people want in eso is stability, and a breather from the constant changes to the game... but zos is famously out of touch with their veteran playerbase, and they will just quit with zos keeping this up. Every single pvp player that I know and talk to have more or less given up on the game at this point, and radical changes to core mechanics is just a nail in the coffin for many I believe.
    Edited by ElvenVeil on March 24, 2020 10:47AM
  • StShoot
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    But HAs curently do more dmg than LAs, LAs however do more dps than HAs if weaved correctly.

    Its just way to risky to overbuff HAs. I remeber the times when Mag dks send everything to oblivion with Foss+Ha, is that what we want ? There are allready gankbuilds that are capeable of oneshoting players, buffing has will make it even easyer. Thats said do you think the "low apm players" aka new players, which zos wanted to help with this change will enjoy being oneshoted ?

    I agree with the other positiv things you said, i realy love it that La/Ma/Ha scale with your highest offensive value, as long as they still return stamina if its a stamina weapon and magica if its a magica weapon, if they change that it would be a big drawback for tanks and pvp.
  • Thevampirenight
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    Well I think only the extreme meta min/maxers would go with orc and altmer with everything.

    Every race is useful for something despite what people might think. Sustain races are still useful added to the new light attack that will give back resources. More resources means more high Apms and dps. More sustain+light attack returns plus+ sustain food and well I can see that being very good for long term sustained ability spam with good dps. Dps might not be the best of the best but still can do quite a lot with sustained dps and I'm a combat/mechanics noob.

    So I'm kinda thinking bs on this one that sustain races would be useless. I'm sure several players could find uses for them for their builds. So I don't think everyone would gravitate to Altmer and Orcs. Then the ones that already gravitate to Bretons and Orcs. Many still are fans of the other races enough to still use those races for other reasons. Not everyone is bis enough to go run an orc for example or a breton right now. Some will go for Nords and Bosmer and Khajiit and Dunmer and other races because they like the lore and they like the feel or they like the models.

    I do find your post insightful though so I do think you bring up some good points. The race thing is the thing I do disagree with you with as many might not funnel into Orc and Altmer. Though the must be bis race and min max crowd might go that route.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on March 24, 2020 11:42AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • L_Nici
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    DKs will be broken af. Take sword and shield, a 5 piece full damage a 5 piece for health and healthreg since you don't need mag and Stamreg anymore, heavy armor, for the passive that you restore ressources with heavy attacks as well, take the DK passive that allows 3k more damage on heavy attacks and your completely broken DD-Supertank is ready to *** with everything in PvP. You will recover ressources with literally every single move you do thanks to the poison and burn recovery, with light attacks in between and with the heavy ones to use your off balance stun.

    Overall heavy armor will be played even more and light and medium die out completely.
    Edited by L_Nici on March 24, 2020 11:55AM
    PC|EU
  • Parrot1986
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    Well I think only the extreme meta min/maxers would go with orc and altmer with everything.

    Every race is useful for something despite what people might think. Sustain races are still useful added to the new light attack that will give back resources. More resources means more high Apms and dps. More sustain+light attack returns plus+ sustain food and well I can see that being very good for long term sustained ability spam with good dps. Dps might not be the best of the best but still can do quite a lot with sustained dps and I'm a combat/mechanics noob.

    So I'm kinda thinking bs on this one that sustain races would be useless. I'm sure several players could find uses for them for their builds. So I don't think everyone would gravitate to Altmer and Orcs. Then the ones that already gravitate to Bretons and Orcs. Many still are fans of the other races enough to still use those races for other reasons. Not everyone is bis enough to go run an orc for example or a breton right now. Some will go for Nords and Bosmer and Khajiit and Dunmer and other races because they like the lore and they like the feel or they like the models.

    I do find your post insightful though so I do think you bring up some good points. The race thing is the thing I do disagree with you with as many might not funnel into Orc and Altmer. Though the must be bis race and min max crowd might go that route.

    From a PVE perspective sustain already isn’t an issue so the light attacks change just gives us more of something we already have lots of. I run Breton just now but on PTS I can comfortable run Altmer without any consideration to sustain I.e sets like False god or citrus food and rarely dip below 50%. That was doing some dungeons and target dummy.

    APMs isn’t something I’m sure links directly to resource and dps. This tracks skill usage light attacks but also movement, block roll dodge etc which for a Magika character is a totally different resource pool doesn’t directly impact dps. Personally I have fairly high light attack ratio to skills and cast 6 dots/buff skills and 1 spammable in my rotation and generally casting on cooldown anyways so there isn’t any scope to increase this.

    If heavy attacks become the new meta this means less skills spam because a heavy attack takes 2 seconds to fire but that’s 2 skills effectively you can’t cast. Thata my biggest issue with this change. I agree not everyone is going to shift race and not every other race is going to be useless but ther will be a genuine shift in optimal race for Magika especially.
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    Well I think only the extreme meta min/maxers would go with orc and altmer with everything.

    Every race is useful for something despite what people might think. Sustain races are still useful added to the new light attack that will give back resources. More resources means more high Apms and dps. More sustain+light attack returns plus+ sustain food and well I can see that being very good for long term sustained ability spam with good dps. Dps might not be the best of the best but still can do quite a lot with sustained dps and I'm a combat/mechanics noob.

    So I'm kinda thinking bs on this one that sustain races would be useless. I'm sure several players could find uses for them for their builds. So I don't think everyone would gravitate to Altmer and Orcs. Then the ones that already gravitate to Bretons and Orcs. Many still are fans of the other races enough to still use those races for other reasons. Not everyone is bis enough to go run an orc for example or a breton right now. Some will go for Nords and Bosmer and Khajiit and Dunmer and other races because they like the lore and they like the feel or they like the models.

    I do find your post insightful though so I do think you bring up some good points. The race thing is the thing I do disagree with you with as many might not funnel into Orc and Altmer. Though the must be bis race and min max crowd might go that route.

    That's my point. If you care about your DPS, you'll go Altmer/Orc. As an example, my Stamden is currently Redguard. While I do prefer their appearance, the main reason is sustain. I cannot comfortably sustain a long fight rotation on Stamden with Orc. It's rough. However, you need to realize what this change means.

    Redguard currently gives 950 Stam/5 sec.

    If you LA every second as you weave, Orcs would gain 1000 Stam/5 sec, making them, effectively, Redguards without losing any of their critical passives.

    Warden is arguably one of the worst sustain classes in the game atm, but I can effectively sustain blue food on Redguard in the current climate. Orcs would EASILY be able to sustain blue food, and other stam DPS races would become completely irrelevant almost immediately, barring significant changes.
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    L_Nici wrote: »
    DKs will be broken af. Take sword and shield, a 5 piece full damage a 5 piece for health and healthreg since you don't need mag and Stamreg anymore, heavy armor, for the passive that you restore ressources with heavy attacks as well, take the DK passive that allows 3k more damage on heavy attacks and your completely broken DD-Supertank is ready to *** with everything in PvP. You will recover ressources with literally every single move you do thanks to the poison and burn recovery, with light attacks in between and with the heavy ones to use your off balance stun.

    Overall heavy armor will be played even more and light and medium die out completely.

    I don't really PVP so I can't speak to a lot of this, but I will say I played during the HA meta in Morrowind, and how utterly dominant DKs were was frustrating as hell. Moving from a Stamcro meta to a Stam DK meta really isn't an improvement. It's irritating how these sweeping, core mechanic changes roll through with little regard to what they do for the long-term outlook of PVE DPS.
  • AinSoph
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    Rn, I'm kinda wondering how Imbue Weapon will work now considering it was THE weaving skill.
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    AinSoph wrote: »
    Rn, I'm kinda wondering how Imbue Weapon will work now considering it was THE weaving skill.

    Oh wow, I completely forgot about that skill. I haven't checked that. I doubt it's changed though, since they didn't announce it. So basically it was already not great, and got even worse. Yikes.
  • SidraWillowsky
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    Great post, and excellent points.

    I had the same thoughts re. why people who are looking to min/max would choose anything other than a few races at this point. Who needs Bretons and Redguards?
  • Khivas_Carrick
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    The only thing ZoS needs to do to make different builds better is buff the *** out of Heavy Attacks.

    Make em hit like a truck so a hyper casual or noob player can just do HA and a skill and bam, they're ok enough for most things lol

    You can have the option to be a lumbering Orc using HA/WB or a Redguard using LA/Jabs or some ***.

    ZoS over here overthinking, about to reinvent the wheel by making it a square lol
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
  • xaraan
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    One detail I want to add about LA/HA using highest offensive stat: If they did the same thing as some ulti's and did not include pen, crit and CP into this, then it may still not be good to mix your weapon types up. Prob only matter in the most min/max sense I suppose though.

    I also want to echo and even add to the resource restore: I don't think it should happen on either type of attack at all. I did suggest doing three LA in a row, no skills between them, offer a restore b/c it is good for emergencies. But having them build up a stack while you do other stuff isn't good. And they should not be on heavy attacks.

    All the restore does as it is is make some sets like false gods, worm, hircine, etc. useless now and make any race that's not orc or high elf useless for dps. Even in tanking resource management would be so much easier you might as well be Nord (in addition to the other reasons to already be a Nord for tanking). Any change to resource management makes any race that gets bonuses better or worse along with those changes. Make resources too stingy and suddenly the races that only get resource management buffs become useful, with this the opposite is happening. I think taking away the resource return from LA and HA makes those players choosing straight DPS buff races have to be spot on with what the do to maintain resources and keeps races with resource management passives useful.

    I agree the LA nerf is too high as well. 80%? That's a pretty solid chunk of DPS on a good player actually, just looking at my metrics, that's about a 10% nerf to my parse. Should LA damage come down? Yes, but I agree maybe 30-40% makes more sense.

    Last - the change to heavy armor passive was not well thought out. Why even have it? Why would I risk my life while tanking to make a heavy for 300/600 rss return when I could just weave or spam some light attacks to never have issues? That probably needs to be reworked entirely to make sense with the proposed changes. Though could still be useful if we got rid of LA/HA resource return entirely. (Though I do think the number is too small vs risk making a heavy attack in some end game HM content).

    edit: Forget what I said: ZoS Just do what Code posted: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517845/how-the-la-ha-changes-fail-to-fulfill-zoss-stated-goals-and-what-could-be-done-instead/p1
    Edited by xaraan on March 24, 2020 11:07PM
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • akdave0
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    SO for a healer, you now will have LA instead of HA to restore?
  • JinMori
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    This sustain race, damage race is causing quite a bit of problems at this point.

    I think they may need to just pull the trigger on this and allow us to pick and choose our passives, as long as they make sense for the race.

    For example, swift warrior makes sense for nord or redguard or imperial, so why couldn't we choose it?

    Adrenaline rush is a bit more of a problem though, because it's clearly a redguard passive.

    Anyway, i think they need to do this, so races are now more of a cosmetic choice.
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