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Skill gap isn't wide enough
Alchimiste1
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This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
1)General direction
I really don't understand why the developers would want to decrease the skill gap. If you are playing an mmo is it not normal for you to want to improve ? and this shouldn't be exclusive to new players. Its my opinion that for an mmo to thrive the end game shouldn't become stale. Don't reduce the skill ceiling but introduce mechanics that can make it bigger, that way end game players/veterans have something to shoot for. Just some quick things off the top of my head that contribute to the skill gap are: animation canceling which has taken a hit recently with cast times and these block changes or bash weaving. One thing that I thought was cool was the ability to brace for landing. Maybe you shouldn't take zero damage from falling off a cliff but reducing the damage taken if you do it on purpose would be nice. That way you can capitalize on the mistake of those that didn't react properly. Its mechanics like that that allow the game to shine more, it doesn't all have to be about class skills. Even the previous terrain under bridges were some things that could be used to your advantage. I don't really play in coordinated groups but I'm sure some that do can list more things.
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my left mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their left mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
3) Conclusion
In all honestly I don't know the extent to which these la/heavy attack changes would alter the game but the frustrating part is that the developers have chosen to propose these changes for the reason of decreasing the skill gap. This is an mmo, please don't kill the end game. Introduce more mechanics, make dungeon/trials more challenging, give the end game players a reason and a method for wanting to get better too.
Edited by Alchimiste1 on March 24, 2020 7:02PM 1)General direction
I really don't understand why the developers would want to decrease the skill gap. If you are playing an mmo is it not normal for you to want to improve ? and this shouldn't be exclusive to new players. Its my opinion that for an mmo to thrive the end game shouldn't become stale. Don't reduce the skill ceiling but introduce mechanics that can make it bigger, that way end game players/veterans have something to shoot for. Just some quick things off the top of my head that contribute to the skill gap are: animation canceling which has taken a hit recently with cast times and these block changes or bash weaving. One thing that I thought was cool was the ability to brace for landing. Maybe you shouldn't take zero damage from falling off a cliff but reducing the damage taken if you do it on purpose would be nice. That way you can capitalize on the mistake of those that didn't react properly. Its mechanics like that that allow the game to shine more, it doesn't all have to be about class skills. Even the previous terrain under bridges were some things that could be used to your advantage. I don't really play in coordinated groups but I'm sure some that do can list more things.
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my left mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their left mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
3) Conclusion
In all honestly I don't know the extent to which these la/heavy attack changes would alter the game but the frustrating part is that the developers have chosen to propose these changes for the reason of decreasing the skill gap. This is an mmo, please don't kill the end game. Introduce more mechanics, make dungeon/trials more challenging, give the end game players a reason and a method for wanting to get better too.
24
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RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
---
Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.21 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.3 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.
I don't quite understand what you are saying. lets say you had 90k dps, I don't think that would solve your issue of finding people to play with because you aren't in a guild. Forgive me if I assume wrong but I'm under the impression that if you aren't in a guild its likely the content you are trying to do is veteran dungeons but I'm certain every veteran dungeon is clear able with 60k dps. I don't think there is a dungeon with a hard dps check out.8 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
if you are taking about from a pve perspective sustain already isn't an issue, you'll only end up over sustaining7 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
if you are taking about from a pve perspective sustain already isn't an issue, you'll only end up over sustaining
And the change to the damage is not an issue either. It is likely to close to what it was pre-Morrowind and the top damage dealers will still be top damage dealers.
Still, have you actually tested this or just reacting to the notes Gina published yesterday?1 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »The skill gap absolutely needs to be decreased. There's literally a 60k-90k+ DPS gap. It makes it a nightmare for people like me, who can't play consistently enough to be in a guild, to find group members good enough to do content with. I don't necessarily think some of these changes help correct that gap, but the gap does not need to be as astronomically large as it is. They need to implement something intuitive that increases the damage of lower tier players, and has no effect on upper tier players.
I don't quite understand what you are saying. lets say you had 90k dps, I don't think that would solve your issue of finding people to play with because you aren't in a guild. Forgive me if I assume wrong but I'm under the impression that if you aren't in a guild its likely the content you are trying to do is veteran dungeons but I'm certain every veteran dungeon is clear able with 60k dps. I don't think there is a dungeon with a hard dps check out.
It's not fun being paired with a dps that pulls 10k or less dps. I dont mind carrying in base content, but once I want to do a DLC dungeon, all bets are off. Also, finding decent people to do trials with, at the times I play at, is extremely tedious.
More people strong enough to do content = more people doing contentAdd a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
---
Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.6 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
if you are taking about from a pve perspective sustain already isn't an issue, you'll only end up over sustaining
And the change to the damage is not an issue either. It is likely to close to what it was pre-Morrowind and the top damage dealers will still be top damage dealers.
Still, have you actually tested this or just reacting to the notes Gina published yesterday?
Do I need to test ? I already end up with like 80% resources at the end of a 21mil parse on a magdk and maplar. There is no way that with the proposed changes people wont over sustain and there is no way to build more damage. The fact that you thing that damage should be the same years later in a game like this means you missed my point. This is an mmo there should be progression.Edited by Alchimiste1 on March 24, 2020 6:04AM5 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
if you are taking about from a pve perspective sustain already isn't an issue, you'll only end up over sustaining
And the change to the damage is not an issue either. It is likely to close to what it was pre-Morrowind and the top damage dealers will still be top damage dealers.
Still, have you actually tested this or just reacting to the notes Gina published yesterday?
Do I need to test ? I already end up with like 80% resources and the end of a 21mil parse on a magdk and maplar. There is no way that with the proposed changes people wont over sustain and there is no way to build more damage. The fact that you thing that damage should be the same years later in a game like this means you missed my point. This is an mmo there should be progression.
think*0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
if you are taking about from a pve perspective sustain already isn't an issue, you'll only end up over sustaining
And the change to the damage is not an issue either. It is likely to close to what it was pre-Morrowind and the top damage dealers will still be top damage dealers.
Still, have you actually tested this or just reacting to the notes Gina published yesterday?
Do I need to test ? I already end up with like 80% resources and the end of a 21mil parse on a magdk and maplar. There is no way that with the proposed changes people wont over sustain and there is no way to build more damage. The fact that you thing that damage should be the same years later in a game like this means you missed my point. This is an mmo there should be progression.
I think you need to read the post you just quoted and commented on. There is no mention of the resource return as I was not replying to that part of your last comment.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
Maybe You havn't noticed but currently DDs are puting all their stats into damage.12 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭what're you talking about ? you brought up sustain right ? I replyed saying its a non issue and you would simply over sustain, also I can confirm people said they were over sustaining on pts.Edited by Alchimiste1 on March 24, 2020 5:44AM0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭you guys do realise that what's going to happen with this patch is everyones dps drops right?
like, if you do 60k dps then you'll do 58k while someone doing 80k will do 70k?5 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
In pve there's nowhere to go when it comes to damage. DDs are already at their maximum stats. This will directly hit pve damage. People who can't weave and rely on heavy attacks won't be able to sustain when they stop giving resources back, so they will still need to learn how to weave, at least occasionally. Low skill people will most likely be hit the hardest and since they never had the inclination to get better, they won't be able to adapt and overcome.PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat6 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"8 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
Ive played all of those games you listed and came back for eso's fast paced combat. To you eso feels clunky but to me all of those game felt restrictive and clunky. Also all of the other things you said you can do them in eso's combat. Now people are going to start saying APM when one day ago they didnt even know what APM was just like they dont know anything about eso's complex combat that zos has basterdized the past two years.Edited by Kalante on March 24, 2020 11:01AM16 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭you guys do realise that what's going to happen with this patch is everyones dps drops right?
like, if you do 60k dps then you'll do 58k while someone doing 80k will do 70k?
People who do 60k will still lose 7-15k. Check lower parses and see how much their light attacks do.
The lower tier DPS is about to get worse.7 -
PhantomOcelot✭✭✭
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
1. Eso combat is not too fast. You are pressing 2 buttons per second. Your active ability and a light attack. That's it. Yes bash weaving can add a third button, but it's not required of you to do so. I never did it and i am not that far off in terms of dps compared to the top parses. Besides if you are playing tank or heal, you don't need to worry about it at all.
2. You are comparing eso to games that were meant to be slow on the combat side of things. Compared to games like Dota or Starcraft, ESO is very slow.
3. "It's unrealistic". And everything else in the game is then? Eso isn't trying to be realistic.
4. "It's immersion breaking". Maybe, not gonna argue with that.
5. "It's unintuitive". I HATE this statement. It's being thrown around with no meaning behind it. Every single game mechanic in every single game can be called unintuitive and it won't mean a damn thing. What is intuitive then? Does anyone throwing that word around knows what they mean by it?
6. You are missing a very important point. If proposed changes will go through (and lets be real here, knowing zos, they will), it's gonna make the game slower for the top 5% of the endgame meta chasers. Because heavy attacks now do more damage, top dds will want to do them. But less experienced players (especially lower cp level players) won't be able to sustain the heavy attack rotation. So they will have to do the faster and more difficult light attack rotation. If this patch will go live it will do the opposite of what you want.
Edited by PhantomOcelot on March 24, 2020 11:26AM9 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
I can get on board with this. Another comparison is Monster Hunter, which has fast paced combat, and doesn't have nearly the same amount of APM.Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
---
Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
Nobody if forcing You to play with the use of fast paced combat. Even build relying on slow rotation can get more then enough DPS to clear all veteran and almost all HM content. Fast paced combat just rewards people with skill to perform it but that doesn't mean everyone else is left without any options. And frankly the reason why so many people cannot complete hardest content is very often because they do not dodge , block , use abilities at correct time or move properly. Also ESO is ESo not "any other game". Stop comparing it to other titles to support Your agenda because even devs themselves said that fast paced combat is what makes ESO different from other games and they want that. Maybe You should take a step back and objectively look at that.3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Do I need to test ?
Yes, you do. The entire point is to see how this actually works and feels. Sitting back and saying, "I read the patch notes so I know how this will feel, and then numbers it returns," won't work, because, frankly, you don't.1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
A lot of people who have problems with the current system seem to think that it's too fast. And when you ask them to do a dummy parse, you will often see that they literally spam skills way too fast, so fast that their skills and light attacks dont register, and they need to slow down and focus on precision to improve their dps. I had the spamming problem, too, when I started.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not realistic", though. ESO doesnt have a single non-magical class, and the whole setting is very high fantasy. Even weapon abilities are not realistic, trying to use dizzying swing in real life would probably get you killed.Edited by LadyNalcarya on March 24, 2020 1:47PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU3 -
Icaruzs✭✭✭APM is greatly reduced my ping.
Not everyone have less than 100 ping. Most of people have 100~300 (depending where you live)2 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skill gap is becoming smaller and smaller every patch, if you haven't noticed every change is to make it smaller then we failed as players. Literally all the best people are slowly quitting because this is truly a First-Person Narrative-Driven cash hungry game.Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling3 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »Do I need to test ?
Yes, you do. The entire point is to see how this actually works and feels. Sitting back and saying, "I read the patch notes so I know how this will feel, and then numbers it returns," won't work, because, frankly, you don't.
did you actually read what I said? you only quoted a small part. That was rhetorical, I said I already end my parse with like 80% resources there is no way that with the added resource boosting mechanics I wont over sustain. And surprise after testing the over sustain is incredible. You can swap to dual wield on a magplar and still have enough sustain on the 21mil. The only thing this does is decrease overall dps because there exists no way to trade over sustain for more dpsEdited by Alchimiste1 on March 26, 2020 12:02AM2 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
1)General direction
I really don't understand why the developers would want to decrease the skill gap. If you are playing an mmo is it not normal for you to want to improve ? and this shouldn't be exclusive to new players. Its my opinion that for an mmo to thrive the end game shouldn't become stale. Don't reduce the skill ceiling but introduce mechanics that can make it bigger, that way end game players/veterans have something to shoot for. Just some quick things off the top of my head that contribute to the skill gap are: animation canceling which has taken a hit recently with cast times and these block changes or bash weaving. One thing that I thought was cool was the ability to brace for landing. Maybe you shouldn't take zero damage from falling off a cliff but reducing the damage taken if you do it on purpose would be nice. That way you can capitalize on the mistake of those that didn't react properly. Its mechanics like that that allow the game to shine more, it doesn't all have to be about class skills. Even the previous terrain under bridges were some things that could be used to your advantage. I don't really play in coordinated groups but I'm sure some that do can list more things.
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
3) Conclusion
In all honestly I don't know the extent to which these la/heavy attack changes would alter the game but the frustrating part is that the developers have chosen to propose these changes for the reason of decreasing the skill gap. This is an mmo, please don't kill the end game. Introduce more mechanics, make dungeon/trials more challenging, give the end game players a reason and a method for wanting to get better too.
There will still be a gap between players. That gap will narrow a bit with this update. This update seem fair given how big the gap currently is.
What this is update is trying to resolve is helping a majority of players that are being left out of high end content because they have slow reaction time with light weaving attacks and paying attention to mechanics, which I would state is very true. This change would allow some players to focus a bit more on mechanics so they don't have to worry as much as about weaving light attacks because their ability to perform these actions are not on par with top players. Top players will still be able to produce more damage but the damage gap will shrink.
This update makes sense.1 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
1)General direction
I really don't understand why the developers would want to decrease the skill gap. If you are playing an mmo is it not normal for you to want to improve ? and this shouldn't be exclusive to new players. Its my opinion that for an mmo to thrive the end game shouldn't become stale. Don't reduce the skill ceiling but introduce mechanics that can make it bigger, that way end game players/veterans have something to shoot for. Just some quick things off the top of my head that contribute to the skill gap are: animation canceling which has taken a hit recently with cast times and these block changes or bash weaving. One thing that I thought was cool was the ability to brace for landing. Maybe you shouldn't take zero damage from falling off a cliff but reducing the damage taken if you do it on purpose would be nice. That way you can capitalize on the mistake of those that didn't react properly. Its mechanics like that that allow the game to shine more, it doesn't all have to be about class skills. Even the previous terrain under bridges were some things that could be used to your advantage. I don't really play in coordinated groups but I'm sure some that do can list more things.
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
3) Conclusion
In all honestly I don't know the extent to which these la/heavy attack changes would alter the game but the frustrating part is that the developers have chosen to propose these changes for the reason of decreasing the skill gap. This is an mmo, please don't kill the end game. Introduce more mechanics, make dungeon/trials more challenging, give the end game players a reason and a method for wanting to get better too.
There will still be a gap between players. That gap will narrow a bit with this update. This update seem fair given how big the gap currently is.
What this is update is trying to resolve is helping a majority of players that are being left out of high end content because they have slow reaction time with light weaving attacks and paying attention to mechanics, which I would state is very true. This change would allow some players to focus a bit more on mechanics so they don't have to worry as much as about weaving light attacks because their ability to perform these actions are not on par with top players. Top players will still be able to produce more damage but the damage gap will shrink.
This update makes sense.
Not really. What happens if the vet players leave the game and now those players that weren't at top tier to be the new top tier and they just can't carry the weaker players?
If people don't want to practice that's on them because at the end of the day content can be completed with 20-30k dps. And if you can't get to that 70k mark that people want unfortunately the hardest vet content shouldn't be for you.
That is why we have solo play open world, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet hm dungeons, trials, vet trials, vet hm trials. There is something for every skill level, if you go outside your skill level that's on you, why ruin it for people that can complete that particular skill level?5 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Oddly the entire OP is incorrect concerning the change. Those that do well with LAs will have better sustain meaning they can put more stats into damage.
It all really needs to be tested to see how it really works out and it seems OP has not done that part.
You already go fully into damage in PvE. You might need recovery food, that's it.6 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sustain is easier, which is nice, because most of my builds are so highly tuned that even 1 wrong cast required 1-2 heavy attacks to regain sustain - doing that is really annoying but I also dont like sacraficing stuff for sutain. So like a pre-teen-dopamine-junkie I will enjoy this "resources dont matter if you weave" system.
As for the gap. Top players did 50-60k unbuffed, unexperienced players did 8k. The gap needed closing, how much is to be debated but something needed to be done.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade1 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Sustain is easier, which is nice, because most of my builds are so highly tuned that even 1 wrong cast required 1-2 heavy attacks to regain sustain - doing that is really annoying but I also dont like sacraficing stuff for sutain. So like a pre-teen-dopamine-junkie I will enjoy this "resources dont matter if you weave" system.
As for the gap. Top players did 50-60k unbuffed, unexperienced players did 8k. The gap needed closing, how much is to be debated but something needed to be done.
Maybe they could practice? Who on earth had 8 k DPS. I could do that with my big toe while watching outlander and eating popcorn. 🤣 Stop trying to make the game so dumbed down that what I just few robed is possible.4 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »This post might be all over the place but I'll try my best to organize it as best I can
2) APM
Moving on to APM. I know they mention some players have high APM but really the required APM needed to reach peak utility isn't that high. This is because the game already has global cool downs. No matter how much I spam my right mouse button, I'm not going to get more than 1 light attack in a second. I am certain that almost everyone in this game can learn to press their right mouse button once per second if they wanted too. If a player seems like they are using a lot of abilities at once its more than likely due to knowing where their skills are on their bar so they don't really have to think about what to press. More importantly I don't see why that's a problem, a person doing more should be rewarded accordingly. I really don't want to see some 1 bar heavy attack magsorc build doing comparable dps to someone who has perfected their rotation.
I don't know why people are so... reluctant on accepting that ESO combat is too fast.
Compare it to other Elder Scrolls Games. Compare it to modern RPGs like The Witcher or Dragon Age Inquisition. Compare it to action MMOs like Tera or Guild Wars 2. No matter which way you look at it, ESO combat is too fast.
Other action games have abilities that take 1, 2, or up to 3 seconds to perform. Meanwhile ESO has a global cooldown of less than 1 second.
It's unrealistic, immersion breaking, unintuitive, and it leads to a meta where high APM matters more than engaging twitch-reactions (Like dodging, blocking, or using abilities at the correct time).
The game is too fast, and needs to be slowed down. Anyone saying heavy attacks are "snore inducing" needs to take a step back, and objectively look at ESO and how it compares to literally any other game.
Ive played all of those games you listed and came back for eso's fast paced combat. To you eso feels clunky but to me all of those game felt restrictive and clunky.
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