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Damage should be in the skills not Light Attacks
Marteene
✭✭✭
After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
Edited by Marteene on March 23, 2020 5:56PM 1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
1
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Marteene✭✭✭For clarity's sake, I was suggesting that if this change were to continue forward, every Damage Skill needs a minimum of a 33% damage increase.0
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pma_pacifier✭✭✭After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Iv'e made a very similar suggestion, if they are gonna do this, they should buff abilities to cover for the loss of damage from light attacks.1 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think that if Zos really want to simplify the rotation, you just need to increase and standardize the time of the dots and buffs, as well as reduce the damage to the aircraft and increase the damage from abilities. In total, we get that players who do not know how to weaving will not be so dramatically worse from pro players.PC/EU0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭zadrotscrolls wrote: »I think that if Zos really want to simplify the rotation, you just need to increase and standardize the time of the dots and buffs, as well as reduce the damage to the aircraft and increase the damage from abilities. In total, we get that players who do not know how to weaving will not be so dramatically worse from pro players.
It doesn't matter what they do, they will always be.1 -
Dogzey✭✭✭Light attacks being so important is why the combat feels way smoother than any other mmo. It’s boring having skills do the work take guild wars 2 as an example find that so boring because light attack weaving isn’t a thing.PS4 EU [810CP] - (Clairvoyance)
PvE High Elf Mag DK - Irelia Dragneel (Voice of Reason) (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer)
PvE Orc Stam DK - Minato Uzamaki
PvE Breton Templar - Ashura Namikaze (Voice of Reason)
PvE Altmer Magcro - Zeref Dragneel
PvE Orc Stamcro - Saphira Dragonsbane (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer)
PvE Orc Stam Sorc - Laxus Dreyar
PvE Imperial DK Tank- Tartarus the Abyss
PvE Dumner Magblade - Apex the Destroyer (Flawless Conqueror)
PvE/PVP Orc Stamblade - IIzuna Uchiha
PvE Altmer Warden Healer - Lady Netch
PVP Dumner Mag DK - Lady Embers
Clears
vAS HM
vMoL HM
vHoF HM
vCR +1
vSS
Craglorns HM2 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭Light attacks being so important is why the combat feels way smoother than any other mmo. It’s boring having skills do the work take guild wars 2 as an example find that so boring because light attack weaving isn’t a thing.
I think light attack weaving will still have its benefits, as it will assist in sustain.
Personally, I don't think light attacks make combat feel smooth or fun. I don't mind it anymore, but I prefer the oomph in my damage be from skills.2 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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^This^zadrotscrolls wrote: »I think that if Zos really want to simplify the rotation, you just need to increase and standardize the time of the dots and buffs, as well as reduce the damage to the aircraft and increase the damage from abilities. In total, we get that players who do not know how to weaving will not be so dramatically worse from pro players.
It doesn't matter what they do, they will always be.
It does not matter what is done to try and "help" players who are underperforming - because anything a potato can do well, a more experienced and more skilled player can do even better.2 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pma_pacifier wrote: »After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?
At first glance, lowering LA damage by over 75% seems like it will take away some of the gap between those who weave well and those who don't. The caveat is that this lowering of LA damage is somewhat offset by the increased recovery: players who can weave well will now be able to run more damage instead of recovery in their builds, so the gap probably will not be reduced quite as much as some may think. We'll need actual testing to judge the situation fairly in terms of whether the gap has narrowed or widened and how the ceiling and floor have moved.
One of the potential issues with lowering LA damage this much is that if there turns out to be a substantial lowering of dps across the board, that could put high dps checks out of reach for more players. In other words, it would restrict endgame content even more. If a reduction in the gap between players is the devs' goal, is putting harder content out of reach for more players going to be acceptable collateral damage? That's where raising the damage on abilities would come in, to help raise both ceiling and floor. (As for the raising of heavy attack damage, that doesn't seem to address the issue that heavy attacks have historically taken too much time to contribute effectively to dps. If they still represent a dps loss, they will now be even more detrimental, as they will no longer provide the resource return that justified or even required their use in the first place.)
Improving the damage of abilities could help offset any lowering of the dps ceiling to help with "dps checks," i.e. when the game "checks" you to see if you have high enough dps to complete that bit of content successfully and move on. If the group doesn't have enough dps, they will wipe on that mechanic either directly, like through a timed one-shot for the group that you must race to preempt (as in some hard mode bosses' execute phases), or indirectly, like being overwhelmed by adds that keep popping up the longer the fight goes on. Dps checks are more straightforward than some other mechanics in that you either have the dps to pass or you don't. As such, they are some of the more simple (and simplistic) tests in any dungeon or trial. To remove dps checks completely would require reworking any such encounters to include some other mechanic to preserve their level of challenge, but doing so would also lower the value of having good dps in the first place. It's possible to lower the dps necessary to pass these checks a bit if indeed the dps ceiling is reduced by these upcoming changes. Alternatively, buffing abilities to make up for the reduction of light attack damage could enable the dps checks to remain while raising the floor and ceiling so that players might still meet those dps checks with practice and so that all players, no matter the content, get more power out of the skills they cast.
All of this really depends on the numbers that we see come out of the current testing.4 -
pma_pacifier✭✭✭pma_pacifier wrote: »After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?
At first glance, lowering LA damage by over 75% seems like it will take away some of the gap between those who weave well and those who don't. The caveat is that this lowering of LA damage is somewhat offset by the increased recovery: players who can weave well will now be able to run more damage instead of recovery in their builds, so the gap probably will not be reduced quite as much as some may think. We'll need actual testing to judge the situation fairly in terms of whether the gap has narrowed or widened and how the ceiling and floor have moved.
One of the potential issues with lowering LA damage this much is that if there turns out to be a substantial lowering of dps across the board, that could put high dps checks out of reach for more players. In other words, it would restrict endgame content even more. If a reduction in the gap between players is the devs' goal, is putting harder content out of reach for more players going to be acceptable collateral damage? That's where raising the damage on abilities would come in, to help raise both ceiling and floor. (As for the raising of heavy attack damage, that doesn't seem to address the issue that heavy attacks have historically taken too much time to contribute effectively to dps. If they still represent a dps loss, they will now be even more detrimental, as they will no longer provide the resource return that justified or even required their use in the first place.)
Improving the damage of abilities could help offset any lowering of the dps ceiling to help with "dps checks," i.e. when the game "checks" you to see if you have high enough dps to complete that bit of content successfully and move on. If the group doesn't have enough dps, they will wipe on that mechanic either directly, like through a timed one-shot for the group that you must race to preempt (as in some hard mode bosses' execute phases), or indirectly, like being overwhelmed by adds that keep popping up the longer the fight goes on. Dps checks are more straightforward than some other mechanics in that you either have the dps to pass or you don't. As such, they are some of the more simple (and simplistic) tests in any dungeon or trial. To remove dps checks completely would require reworking any such encounters to include some other mechanic to preserve their level of challenge, but doing so would also lower the value of having good dps in the first place. It's possible to lower the dps necessary to pass these checks a bit if indeed the dps ceiling is reduced by these upcoming changes. Alternatively, buffing abilities to make up for the reduction of light attack damage could enable the dps checks to remain while raising the floor and ceiling so that players might still meet those dps checks with practice and so that all players, no matter the content, get more power out of the skills they cast.
All of this really depends on the numbers that we see come out of the current testing.
Very well explained. I get it now. Actually the adjustment to skill damage values would go really well with the added change of light attack sustain. Would seem to be good in terms of PVE in compensation but now when we look at PVP, it's like when DoTs were over-buffed. Ouch. There's a lot of consideration here. I still can't get the logic around their justification though. LA Weaving would be critically required only for what you said DPS Checks hence it was a non-issue at the first place.
Only benefit was that perhaps casual players who don't weave could now just use it for sustain after spamming their skills and LA till they regain their resources back. But then again its the same as just doing heavy attacks once you're out of resources, all without weaving anything in between. ALL of that assuming that these casual players had issues with sustain too at the first place and don't really like heavy attacks.0 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It does not matter what is done to try and "help" players who are underperforming - because anything a potato can do well, a more experienced and more skilled player can do even better.
This is very true. To a point. There will always be goods and bads no matter what the mechanics of the game evolve into over time. And the goods will and should outperform the bads.
Where it "matters" is in the degree to which the gap exists, how big the gap is. And that can be affected, for better or worse, by changes to mechanics.Edited by Mindcr0w on March 23, 2020 7:56PM2 -
Marteene✭✭✭pma_pacifier wrote: »
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?
Increasing base skill damage would, as someone mentioned above, lower the skill gap but allow for players in DPS check situations to meet or exceed the standard. Also, no one likes losing damage, especially if that is your role and you’re good at it. The current change doesn’t lower the skill gap but makes it more untenable. Everyone I know who is testing and getting good numbers today is performing 150+ bash weaves, a mechanic that shouldn’t even be inherent to DPS. The skill gap as of the change this morning has never been more pronounced.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭pma_pacifier wrote: »
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?
Increasing base skill damage would, as someone mentioned above, lower the skill gap but allow for players in DPS check situations to meet or exceed the standard. Also, no one likes losing damage, especially if that is your role and you’re good at it. The current change doesn’t lower the skill gap but makes it more untenable. Everyone I know who is testing and getting good numbers today is performing 150+ bash weaves, a mechanic that shouldn’t even be inherent to DPS. The skill gap as of the change this morning has never been more pronounced.
Indeed.
On a typical meta stam DPS (just for example), no one cares about sustain. Sustain is not an issue. Builds are pure damage.
The only thing the additional sustain via LAs gives you is ... more stamina to bash weave.
So now, bashing is literally more DPS than light attacking. By a wide margin.
And now people who can't be bothered to learn to LA weave will continue to have lower damage *and* they won't be able to sustain! Brilliant!
Honestly I had far more fun playing this game when I ignored the PTS, didn't read patch notes, and just showed up to raid. It's legitimately impressive that ZOS can manage to invent this many dumb changes every *** patch.Edited by LiquidPony on March 23, 2020 8:50PM1 -
DeathStalker✭✭✭✭✭After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
I have severe arthritis in both hands and simply can't perform light attacking weaving consistently. I love this idea in combination with the changes on pts. A lot of people talk that light attack weaving is 100% a learning thing but for people like me, there is no amount of learning that will take all the pain out of my hands and wrists.3 -
tauriel01✭✭✭✭Yeah, i feel like the goal is admirable--reducing the gap between the top end and the low end--but the way it's being accomplished is wrong. rather than lowering the ceiling--who the eff cares what the twitch reflex people can do? they will be there anyway no matter what changes you make--ZOS should be raising the floor. If the reliance isn't on light attack weaving to have dps that will allow the "average joe" to complete content, then light attack weaving stops being the be all, end all it is. ZOS, take your DPS bell curve, chop off the lower 10% that are never going to "get it" and chop off the upper 10% that are going to get crazy DPS numbers regardless of what you do and focus on the remaining 80% of your customer base. What can you do to ensure those players can succeed at hard content to the extent you feel they should? pretty sure doing anything to reduce the DPS of the upper 10% isn't going to be the answer. Why don't you look at increasing the damage that SKILLS do, so that reliance on light attacks for DPS isn't a thing anymore?1 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭pma_pacifier wrote: »After running about 10 parses this morning a few things are apparent, if this massive overhaul of the LA/HA system goes out
1) Heavy attacks need a massive damage buff (otherwise DPS will receive its biggest nerf ever and some content will be unclearable ie. vSS HM Eternal Servant)
2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that. HAs dont fit the theme of every class and thus should not be the "spammable" for everything
3) The LA sustain one is actually cool BUT if it continues at the expense of DPS groups that struggle with DPS checks like vHoF Assembly General Exhaustion will no longer have a fair shot at clearing.
This needs a lot of consideration and math. DPS in trials isn't in a horrible place on live currently but if this went into effect as is, the majority of the "endgame raiding", score pushing, knowledgeable theory-crafting, and high tier PvP communities would likely leave the game.
Noob here.
Shouldn't the change lower the skill gap as intended, hence its easier for a casual player like me to perform as well as you? Can you elaborate DPS checks? I think ZOS should remove that requirement too because "many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb"
Need your insight. Feels like your suggestion of damage increase be a good idea. I also think we need more recovery from light attacks because I think I still need to light attack weave so that I can dps check?
Why should a new player or casual be able to beat the end game content of a massive online game? The point of end game content is to challenge veterans who play this game a lot.Edited by ZarkingFrued on March 23, 2020 9:43PM0 -
satanio✭✭✭✭Yes.
StamDK DW/bow Maw&Rele&Lokke
full LA rotation ->75k dps: https://www.esologs.com/reports/1NKp2cT4bHW7mPzY#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1
--Warning: next rotations contain Molten Armaments, other classes will perform worse with HA.--
hybrid LA&HA rotation -> 72k dps: https://www.esologs.com/reports/jHCvMn8WyQ63FpaR#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1
full HA rotation -> 68k dps: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CgZ9mKrhcxaXvn2t#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1
full HA rotation with CP adjusted -> 71k dps: https://www.esologs.com/reports/VjqrQAGtm9vBMWkL/#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1
gap would not be so wide anymore, but some content (vSS HM) will get infinitely harder, maybe undoable.Edited by satanio on March 24, 2020 3:07PM0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Skills should be carrying the workload of DPS, as it stands they don't LAs have been doing that.
In pretty much every other game, the point of having a skill is to do something better with your time than a basic swing.
The only reason people don't just spam LA here is because they can't cancel a LA with a LA and machinegun things down.
Light Attacks have overshadowed skills in ESO for a long time, and I feel that's counterintuitive to combat design.
Make skills special again and make Heavy Attack better than Light Attack -- it's this way in other games for good reason.
2