rambo4uub17_ESO wrote: »

But......why not allow "perfected versions". You could have a shrine in each zone the set originates in and if you have certain zone achievements be eligable to upgrade.

Thinking WAY too far outside the box. We've been asking for updated perfected versions of Master and Maelstrom weapons for years. They fail to make that logical update so they won't bother doing something as interesting as that for these niche sets.

That is a new mechanic my friend, new mechanics are sold in chapters.

@Kadoin Do you care to explain more than just putting "Lmao, NO"

Otherwise... you kinda of sound like an anti-vaxxer screaming into the wind... Please explain how any of these sets would be problematic VS the current existence of NMA and Elemental Succession...

If you can't explain your reasoning then you have little reason to be in a discussion centered around numbers and not opinions.

@Charon_on_Vacation The reason I didn't include Innate Axiom is because typically class abilities have the best scaling in the game in addition to having very little drawbacks between all three skill lines.
While I could see the set being buffed to a value like 500 and not 550 with the small tradeoff of missing out on other skills the class skill lines are far too wide and varied to give an overall buff of 550 WD/SD to them.

For those who also read this the reason I can see Innate Axiom buffed to 500 is because of it's set bonuses.
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical, Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell and Weapon Damage to your Class abilities.

Note that despite the (4) item bonus being like NMA the (2) and (3) are not both stats, and so a total stat loss is lost on that bonus making it immediately worse than NMA even if it was buffed to 500 SD/WD to class abilities.

Kadoin wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Do people seriously not understand just how OP his suggestion would be? lmao, NO.

Please explain it to us.

I would love to hear how Netch giving 550 Spell Damage to Shock abilities would be OP when Elemental Succession gives 550 Spell Damage to Shock, Fire and Frost Damage, as well as carrying over to the opposite bar for 4s.

The funny thing is that Succession isn’t even one on the top sets currently in the game. But buffing something useless, up to a state still slightly weaker than another off-meta set, that would just be too OP.

I don't know, the fact that succession requires you to take a specific action to keep it up while Netch does not? This makes a difference when and where you can't simply light attack or use a skill to keep the buff of succession up. It has a cost through the limited opportunity you have in combat if you want to keep the buff up as much as possible.

Realistically, this opportunity cost is why succession is balanced v. New Moon Acolyte, and why people would choose New Moon Acolyte over succession anyway even if the 1-2-3 piece of New Moon were not superior to Succession.

If Sun, Netch, Maiden, blah were buffed to the 5 piece power of Succession, exactly what downside would they have v. Succession besides being only one damage type? They would have no opportunity cost, and unlike NMA no cost increase on abilities, but 100 percent uptime on one damage type.

Succession carrying over to another bar doesn't matter if you must first take a predetermined action after rolling, after blocking, after healing, or whatever you are doing, to keep the buff of the set up if you want to maximize damage or continue your rotation without the damage bonus when you're not fighting a target dummy and an enemy can bite back.

That's why it's not meta in PvE or PvP, but yet you come here and use the set to try to justify buffing sets that would have no downside to their application?

lol, no.

Affecting one damage type is a massive downside. Using Netch as an example, you might think it would make a good set for a Sorcerer because they use the most Shock Damage. In reality, the set doesn’t affect their Crystal Frags, Curse, Twilight or Scamp pets, Mines, Mystic Orb, Elemental Weapon, or 2/3 of Force Pulse. It’s also a significant loss to use double Lightning staves to make your Light Attacks and Wall buffed by the Netch set, since Inferno is stronger. So yeah, the set would have to be pretty strong to make up for all the things it doesn’t affect. Honestly 550 Spell Damage would not be enough.

MagDK is a little better with Silks of the Sun, since most of their skills are Fire damage. Still, they have skills like Orb and 2/3 of Force Pulse that are not affected. Again comparing to Succession, which currently gives the recommended 550 Spell Damage, with nearly 100% uptime, and buffs all 3 hits of Force Pulse, but is still not meta. I think it’s safe to say that even with 550 Spell Damage, Sun would not be meta or OP.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honestly, I would to see Julianos and Hunting’s buffed as well. 299 weapon or spell damage is just too little compared to the new sets released. This would add more flexibility to builds especially since they can be crafted. 550 Would be to much but 400-450 would be nice. Then these older sets would see more use again. God forbid they possibly make it back in the meta bis contingent.

@Hotdog_23 Julianos/Hundings is fine as 300 weapon damage because it has no condition attached to it. All the higher damage sets have some condition or the other for it. Julianos/Hundings might seem underpowered but their five pc bonus is equivalent in stat density to penetration sets like Spriggan or crit sets like Mother's Sorrow, both of which are considered great sets. Comparing Spriggan to Twice Fanged Serpent, TFS gives significantly higher penetration than Spriggan, but Spriggan is still preferred in PvP due to the fact it has no conditions.

Kadoin wrote: »

And yet you can still have downtime v. Sun, War Maiden, etc. I know how the set works, doesn't change anything that I said... in fact I should even have stated that the set limits your build and rotation to keep the effect on. You're describing exactly that.

@Kadoin So you're telling me the difference of 0.2 seconds of the Elemental Succession buff being down VS War Maiden or any of the other sets will make a difference between Elemental Succession currently being considered a bad set and the War Maidens and others being considered OP?

I'll let you formulate that one into a somehow presentable argument, but I will tell you right now you can't. The reason I chose Elemental Succession specifically for this argument is because it's currently considered a bad set; and if something that buffs 3 schools of damage is a bad set with a less than 0.2 second downtime then something that buffs a single school of damage with 0 seconds of downtime will be worse.

550 is too high with he exception of say soul shine considering that set is even more limited than elemental ones.

If NMA is the basis of comparison the bonus damage should match NMA. Downside being that these do not affect light attacks nor do they affect primary heals. This and the imposed limitation of the sets already balances out the 5% cost penalty of NMA.

Sets like Sun and Sword Singer could also be differentiated by only buffing the sets to around 430/440 but than adding a 3% cost reduction.

400 is low but 550 is just ridiculous for a 0 proc condition.

Kadoin wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

@Kadoin Hi do you mind re-reading Elemental Successions effect? The "actions" you claim it takes are things that you would have up anyway and so don't really have any bearing on the set. As I said in my OP ES only has a downtime of MAYBE one spell; but if you re-read the set bonus you'll see that any damage of that type can proc it's effect not just casting a spell of that type. This includes all DoTs which as a DPS you should no doubt have up anyway; so even with this perk of not having to actively worry about rotation to keep the buff up it isn't anywhere near a meta set; this is because again it limits the skill options and makes it less desirable because you are giving up buffs from every other school of damage and their coefficients won't scale as well without the 550 buff. I can block and roll dodge while having my DoTs continue ticking and I'd hope you can do the same honestly. One Wall of Elements and one Inferno Staff DoT will keep the buff going for 2-3 cycles on average.

That argument has now been debunked so do you have any others?

@Charon_on_Vacation Oh don't get me wrong these sets aren't going to be "not underpowered" with these buffs; the drawbacks are just too far. I already conceded that Innate Axion getting buffed to 500 WD/SD isn't problematic I just don't know the scaling on EVERY class ability, and I know class abilities on certain classes are exactly what give them their incredible power in PvP. If PvE was my only concern them I'd say 550 in a heartbeat but I know that could be detrimental to the current PvP environment in this case I'm mostly looking at Templars Power Of The Light + Biting Jabs and Wardens Shalks + Cutting Dive.

And yet you can still have downtime v. Sun, War Maiden, etc. I know how the set works, doesn't change anything that I said... in fact I should even have stated that the set limits your build and rotation to keep the effect on. You're describing exactly that.

EDIT: Oops I assumed people would understand the phrase "it has a cost through the limited opportunity you have in combat if you want to keep the buff up as much as possible" to include rotation and skill bar setup. But okay, whatever.

These single damage type boosting sets have a cost through limited opportunity in combat if you want to get as much use from the set as possible. This is the skill bar setup. Netch's Touch only buffs a handful of skills, none of which are a spammable. The sacrifice is that your better and more useful skills don't get the additional damage from the spell bonus.

You can't even make a decent PvE DPS build with Netch's Touch. Not sure about PvP because I dont do it.

I agree with buffing these sets. Except mDK, no class will fully benefit the one element damage increase the way NMA does because of that one or two skills that do different type or light attack.
Even in case of mDK and Sun, benefit from set is lower than Succession or other specific element sets due to having max hp bonus.

Also let's not forget about Ysgramor, that buffs frost damage this way and Light Speaker that buffs resto staves but LS is the topic for another thread to rework older healing sets.

Kittytravel wrote: »

@Kadoin
93.52% uptime in 39 seconds. That's 2.53 seconds of downtime in a 39 second fight.
So my bad, it was .06 seconds of downtime inbetween.
But if you actually believe that this set is "bad" because of .06 seconds of average downtime and not because the bonuses to specific schools only is always just worse than having everything get extra damage then fine; keep your belief and go. I'm not interested in a mislead opinion of how this would be "op" with your faulty logic knowing once upon a time you thought "Dead-Water's Guile" was going to be incredibly broken. If three skills of damage at 550 bonus with .06 seconds of downtime between isn't OP then neither will 100% uptime at one school of damage be OP.

@IAVITNI ... You say it yourself... Downside is that it doesn't affect light attacks. And primary heals? No my friend they affect NO heals. And if you are referring to NMA here... Yes. NMA Scales for all heals... because it's dual-stat...
NMA balanced 5% cost penalty? You're kidding right? A set doesn't get considered "BiS craftable" because it's balanced... it gets considered a BiS craftable because it's a cut above the rest... That's what BiS means...
And... what? 3% cost reduction for less damage when a set like NMA has a 5% cost increase for more damage makes no sense? If people are already using NMA with a cost increase why the hell would anyone care about cost reduction?...

I'm not here asking for these sets to be "better" than NMA, where NMA sits is fine with me because something has to sit there. That's how an MMO works something will always be considered BiS for certain reasons; but these sets being brought to 550 would only help niche builds which the game prides itself on; it wouldn't break a damn thing in the entire meta.

I highlighted Sword-Singer and Sun as they do affect heals for the builds they tend to be found on-2H rally builds and magicka DKs. Warmaiden (which is left out) affects Strife healing and jabs healing. So yes "my friend" it doesn't affect primary heals but it does affect healing to a notable extent. Maybe learn the game before you start flaming.

People use NMA but many compensate that extra cost increase by investing slightly more into sustain either through sets/enchants or via gameplay. It is also heavily used because stam sustain is ridiculous easy atm. There's a reason it isn't mag meta.

If you literally match these sets to NMA 5 pc values they will be used as a cost efficient alternative, especially for magicka. Sun and sword singer should be singled out because they affect significant sources of healing for the builds they would be used on. War Maiden isn't as much as an issue because they affect secondary/tertiary sources of healing but if they were subjected to say 430/440 damage with a cost decrease they would still have the same power budget as NMA.

Comparing Sun to succession, succession wins every time damage wise. A cost decrease would make Sun the most effective set for fire damage while succession would still be the highest damage set for lightning frost and fire. Both would have a niche but both would obtain similar power levels.

Kittytravel wrote: »

@IAVITNI First off I wanna start off with thank you for not just spouting mindless objections and instead highlighting your concerns in a concise manner with reasoning. I don't have every skill in the game memorized and so I completely forgot Rally even had a heal built into it.

I did admit earlier on specifically for Sword-Swinger that I could see it being the most abused of the bunch, I don't particularly agree with 430/440 having the same power budget due to NMA other stats VS SS namely in penetration. It also forfeits power to the biggest burst stam heal Vigor but I can see with your argument that 550 might push it a tad over the top and maybe 500 is a better sitting point. Rally can be used to heal but it wouldn't be anywhere near as efficient as Vigor since it takes time to scale up and you'll need to burst heal through certain matchups to stay alive.

The War Maiden concern is merited because you are right; jabs is currently one of if not the most overtuned spammable in the game on any class and I could see this becoming problematic... I'd wager to make these changes safer jabs would have to be brought better in line with other class spammables.

I already knew that Silks of the Sun could be most effectively used on a DK but due to all the limitations it comes with you'd be sacrificing a large amount of healing to accomplish it so I can't see it being used very much in PvP. Flame Lash has a built in CD to its heal so that's not a good alternative and Dragon Blood scales off HP not spell stats. Obsidian Shard is the last one to look at but the morph has such subpar damage that I can't see it being reliably used just to accomplish the 550 SD on SotS personally; especially since to be using all this you'd no doubt be a MagDK and therefore would be losing a very large chunk of SD on your Annulment.

The cost decrease doesn't mean a lot to me since in my experience 70-80% of PvP matchups in battlegrounds come more down to burst and less down to resource sustain. Each fight breaks out for around 5-20 seconds and after that a victor emerges. I haven't seen many drawn out fights (though I know they are out there) where sustain becomes the main source of determining a victor.

Sad that the devolution of the forums has led you to actually thanking me for objective arguing with reasoning lol. (to avoid misinterpretation, that's a jab at forum culture not you)

The cost reduction/increase, especially on sword singer would be a very big deal. Tooltip wise, 440 vs 550 is only a couple hundred but the cost difference would end up being 8%, so ultimate uptime would be notably stronger. Honestly the 3% was a "random" number but basing it off marksman, 5% cost reduction with say a 430/440 damage boost would be really good. But again, that's only for sword-singer and sun. For sets like automaton, if you match it with NMA it will see use. The argument of Vigor being affected is shaky since many people 1 bar NMA, and Vigor isn't always on that bar. But for arguments sake, matching sets like auto to 481 damage with a 3% cost reduction could be worth exploring, though I still think the cost reduction would be over the top if the damage is matched. You could even turn those sets into % modifiers at 10% and that would still be fairly balanced while also making gearing more interesting.

Going back to Sun again, a mdks primary heal is actually burning embers and that does get buffed by sun. Sun is still considered a solid set on mDK. It's just that there are better alternatives that are newer and players tend to flock to them. Back in the day sun and BSW were considered BiS for mDK. BSW is still a viable option and it was actually nerfed since then.

The line of pen is strong on NMA. But again, NMA does require build changes either via gear, passives or playstyle. The 5% isn't a non-factor it's just that players adapted, even if that means they weave 3 heavy attacks instead of 2 in a fight.

The 2-4 pcs are a tough topic. Yes, the pen is really strong but max stat still has value. On a set like sun, that extra line of health makes it very easy to run tri glyphs and switch to ghastly eye balls and still meet requirements for health and stamina on a mag build. That variance allows for build variety. Yes the pen is the strongest damage wise, but a dead dps is no dps so you can't marginalize sustain via max stat or other stats like health or crit.

The mention of BGs gives me a better idea of where you're coming from. I'm going to assume you're a stam player. Magicka has sustain issues. BiS race for magicka is almost always breton because of that, yet stamina can go orc/nord no problem. Even bosmer offers damage and it is considered a sustain race. That means that at base stamina gets either +200 extra weapon damage or +3k resistance while magicka gets 8% sustain, which in your words doesn't matter as much (for YOUR specific playstyle btw) and yet almost all magicka builds slot ele drain.

And if you're basing this off group play where sustain means less meaning NMA % increase cost is less impactful that is more an issue of group play, specifically effectiveness of cross healing. Defensive abilities cost A LOT more than offensive ones. In group play, a healer can normally absorb all sustain drain because healers can forgo offensive stats in favour or BOTH sustain and survivability and still keep their group alive while being nigh unkillable themselves. This means, the biggest intended resource sink is nullified in group play.

NMA should provide the most damage (with 100% uptime) as a set. That's the entire purpose of it but it comes with a cost or "kiss-curse". Matching specialty sets to NMA would already provide the "kiss-curse" in that they don't affect heals etc. But that's 1 less heavy attack in your offensive rotation or a sustain glyph you can swap out for a damage glyph so they can still potentially pull ahead damage-wise.

Adjusting those sets in this way doesn't create some clear cut winner. If damage is still an issue than maybe the 2-4 bonuses could be looked at on the specialty sets or maybe NMA should lose the pen bonus. If sustain bonuses are useless than players are obviously over sustaining especially considering stam builds can literally run 0 sustain investments and be fine in both group and solo ow gameplay.

@IAVITNI I think I have a better view of where you're coming from now. My main issue with these sets is actually PvP balance and their potential to break that spectrum. Much as I'd like to be concerned about PvE balance, there will always be something broken there and ZOS won't care to fix it. Otherwise the Zaan/Velidreth/Marseelok issue would have already been addressed imo. Zaan a little less so but Velidreth holds its place quite well in both AoE and single target scenarios and has been considered a BiS option since it's release while several other monster sets are a non-option due to it's existence and mechanics.

But yeah my reasoning on why I'm not as concerned with the PvE side is just that; it doesn't affect other players very much. PvE for people who are pushing leaderboards has always been mix/max and so they will always flock to whatever set gives the greatest min/max for the best of the min/max classes; just like when prior to the abom nerfs people were running several Necro's in a group to get the highest uptime on M. Vuln. For people who aren't pushing leaderboards well, we will make our owns builds regardless of what is "meta".

I'm still not entirely sure the 8% cost reduction on ultimates would still add very much to the set if it only granted 440 considering Elemental Successions existence and how easy it is to keep that buff uptime. I assume at this point the theory of buffing these mostly devolves into Magicka VS Stamina and I can agree with that divide; Magicka clearly runs far more risks by specializing in a single damage type as it doesn't get applied to their shields which is relatively vital in PvP. Stamina specializing in a single damage type doesn't change much for their survivability as Vigor still does a good heal even without the 550 WD in addition to other possible heals that could stand in to supplement Vigor while passively dealing damage.

I could see the stamina ones remaining at a relatively healthier 500 bonus while the magicka gets upped since they run a higher risk in PvP gameplay and Elemental Succession already exists. I'll reiterate here for anything else that reads it that I'm not concerned about PvE balance because all that ever comes down to is someone number crunching and telling the masses "Here you go BiS items go get them for your class.".

@Vaoh My goal with these changes was to show ZOS that they could take 1-2 minutes per set and quickly adjust them; adding in new or extra mechanics isn't worth the difficulty it would garner them as I want these sets to at least have a stand-in place for people who want to specialize in a build. Currently my issue with these sets is when you see them you immediately think that because they are so specialized they should be the best choice for that damage type but they aren't; that's mostly why I'd like to see them raised to a more significant value to a point where they are at least on par with NMA but preferably stronger since they require farming not crafting.

I think 550 SD to abilities and a cost reduction would be a little over the type as I stated earlier in the thread and that'd be more of a supplemental change to the sets if ZOS wanted to grant that down the line.