"Specialty" sets and a request to buff them.

Kittytravel

So I decided to make this thread namely because it's been awhile since New Moon Acolyte came out and I was hoping afterwards we would see a buff to these sets but to no avail. This is an odd niche request and so I understand that this may go under sighted pretty easily as even with buffs I don't think these sets would become meta.

For those that don't know what New Moon Acolyte does I'll put it here.
2 items: Adds 833 Weapon Critical, Adds 833 Spell Critical
3 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage, Adds 129 Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 1487 Physical Penetration, Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
5 items: Adds 481 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage. Increases the cost of your active abilities by 5%.

Now there are a few sets I'm going to be addressing today but I'll stay with the Maelstrom Arena set Elemental Succession.
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) Whenever you deal Flame, Shock, or Frost Damage, you gain 550 Spell Damage for that element for 4 seconds. This effect can occur every 4 seconds per element. You can have multiple different elemental buffs active simultaneously.

As you can see it grants 550 spell damage to three different elements for 4 seconds; not the best of options but if someone wanted to make a pure Flame/Shock/Frost toon thematically this set is perfect for such a thing. 550 Spell Damage sits above new moons so it's reasonable to use this VS new moons in such a niche setup even with the 4 second timer resulting in a slight downtime on one skill per theoretical rotation.

Now the sets I would request to be buffed to the same 550 spell damage boost is these beneath.

War Maiden
(2 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities.

Netch's Touch
2 items: Adds 833 Spell Critical
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities.

Silks of the Sun
2 items: Adds 1206 Maximum Health
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities.

Soulsshine
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
3 items: Adds 833 Spell Critical
4 items: Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 450 Spell Damage to your cast time and channeled abilities.

Spider Cultist Cowl
2 items: Adds 833 Spell Critical
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 450 Spell Damage to your Destruction Staff abilities.

Ysgramor's Birthright
2 items: Adds 833 Spell Critical
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Frost Damage abilities.

Spelunker
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage to your Undaunted abilities. When an ally uses one of your Undaunted ability synergies you restore 1500 Stamina.

Strength of the Automaton
2 items: Adds 833 Weapon Critical
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Weapon Damage to your Physical Damage abilities.

Swamp Raider
2 items: Adds 833 Weapon Critical
3 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
5 items: Adds 400 Weapon Damage to your Poison and Disease Damage abilities.

Sword Dancer
2 items: Adds 833 Weapon Critical
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
5 items: Adds 450 Weapon Damage to your Dual Wield abilities.

Sword Singer
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 items: Adds 833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 450 Weapon Damage to your Two Handed abilities.

Basically with new moon adding 481 Spell to everything for the 5% increased cost of abilities and with Elemental Succession granting 550 SP to three different damage types at the cost of slight moments of down time I don't find it unreasonable that the 5 pc bonuses for all the above sets also grant 550 SP/WP since they are so incredibly specialized to certain damage types or skill lines that they still won't be widely used or recommended for anything but niche builds for the most part. The proposed buff is mostly to help the community with those who want extremely specialized builds also do atleast some modicum of DPS existing on the average level so that "normal" players aren't endlessly frustrated with them. And yes trust me I understand the issue with ice staves and heavy attacking passive and people who don't read it before taking it.

For those confused about War Maidens 5pc bonus which is relatively common. This effect does not apply on abilities that cost magicka it applies on abilities that do magic damage. This means NONE of the destruction staff abilities as once you equip a destruction staff to use the line all those damage types change to that of the destro staff.

RaptorRodeoGod

Honestly, those sets are so specialized I think it's reasonable to bump the damage up to 600+. No build is going to be able to get away with running only shock damage, only ice, or only magic damage. You simply wont have enough skills to use of the proper element to fill out your rotation.

Elemental Succession works best on Necromance's amd DKs, mostly because they can afford to cut plain magic damage skills out of their builds, and still be relatively fine.

War Maiden is a huge waste unless someone can figure out how to DPS in a healing staff.

Also Sword Singer and Sword Dancer are comparable to Spider Cultists Cowl. 2H and DW analogues.

Kittytravel

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Honestly, those sets are so specialized I think it's reasonable to bump the damage up to 600+. No build is going to be able to get away with running only shock damage, only ice, or only magic damage. You simply wont have enough skills to use of the proper element to fill out your rotation.

Elemental Succession works best on Necromance's amd DKs, mostly because they can afford to cut plain magic damage skills out of their builds, and still be relatively fine.

War Maiden is a huge waste unless someone can figure out how to DPS in a healing staff.

Also Sword Singer and Sword Dancer are comparable to Spider Cultists Cowl. 2H and DW analogues.

Ah thank you for pointing out those two sets I will add them as well. I could see Sword Singer being used a bit more with 550 since PvP utilizes a lot of the 2 Hand skills in Stam but I still don't think it'd be a game-breaking balance issue.

As for the shock damage or ice only - I've seen several Wardens make Ice Only builds. I've seen several sorcs make Shock only builds. And I believe currently Nightblade is the only one that can do pure magic build with 10 skills (War Maiden)

But I'll add the sets I missed.

YandereGirlfriend

MagPlar can do PvE with only one non-Magic skill slotted (Wall of Elements) since all of their class skills are Magic Damage. It's even easier in PvP since you aren't using Wall and thus only your Light Attacks will be missing out.

That said though, I totally agree with the sentiment of this thread, that all of these niche sets deserve hearty buffs to make them viable versus the brainless meta sets.

Further, I think that class kits could also use some work: such as the Sorcerer skills being almost evenly divided between Shock and Magic damage. I would love to see them all shifted to Shock in order to open up new build possibilities AND to give greater benefit to the Shock Damage passive. MagWarden also suffers from this problem, with division between Magic and Frost Damage.

Having multiple elemental affinities (such as with Necromancer) is not so bad since you can use Succession, but dividing class kits between Magic and elemental is a big implicit nerf to build diversity since that funnels you into generic Spell Damage and Criticals which are agnostic toward damage type.

Destruction Staff and other Weapon-specific sets need a complete rework considering that it is not possible to put together a good build (outside of 2H in PvP) that uses more than 2 or 3 Weapon Skills. Weapon abilities either need "per slotted" passives like Guild and Class abilities OR those sets need to give ridiculous bonuses (~1000 Damage) OR need to be entirely reinvented (e.g. something like Destruction Mastery set gives you the main benefits of BOTH morphs of an ability when you use it).

Gilvoth

please dont change existing sets, instead, please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets.

YandereGirlfriend

Gilvoth wrote: »

please dont change existing sets, instead, please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets.

Arguing to keep existing sets underpowered? Why turn down a War Maiden at 400 when it could be 550 instead?

Kittytravel

@Gilvoth
So you want to keep existing sets unchanged and relatively useless as they are since New Moon Acolyte is just a purely better option over them?... I don't understand this line of thinking either. Can you give us a reason for this stance?

Gilvoth

because when you start changing sets (even in the name of buffs and to "make them better") then it will grow, and it wont end there, it will destroy sets that others love and use daily.
and to quote myself from earlier:
"please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets."
if you want it different, then ask for a new set that has what you want in it.

MashmalloMan

Gilvoth wrote: »

because when you start changing sets (even in the name of buffs and to "make them better") then it will grow, and it wont end there, it will destroy sets that others love and use daily.
and to quote myself from earlier:
"please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets."
if you want it different, then ask for a new set that has what you want in it.

No thank you. These sets suck. They've udpated sets every patch for the past year and most of the changes have been to great benefit.. We don't need 1000 sets in the game.

Kittytravel

Gilvoth wrote: »

because when you start changing sets (even in the name of buffs and to "make them better") then it will grow, and it wont end there, it will destroy sets that others love and use daily.
and to quote myself from earlier:
"please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets."
if you want it different, then ask for a new set that has what you want in it.

Question again, please explain how buffing a set in the exact way it is currently used without changing a single one of it's mechanics aside from numbers will destroy it?... That statement makes no sense at all... and honestly? Love and use daily?
I'm willing to wager you don't have a single toon with any of the above listed sets that I'm proposing for changes... because New Moon Acolyte is just a better choice than all of them.
I'm literally proposing a change that might make these sets worth using daily for niche class choices like "I want to be a full Shock Sorc."

Edit: I'd also like to add using your method we would end up with "I want all the above sets but with 550 in stats instead of 400."
So I literally get my way except the game now adds copycats of these exact sets with just... better... stats... Which is just a laughable waste of dev time instead of just buffing these.

MashmalloMan

Kittytravel wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

because when you start changing sets (even in the name of buffs and to "make them better") then it will grow, and it wont end there, it will destroy sets that others love and use daily.
and to quote myself from earlier:
"please just make new sets and allow us to keep the old sets."
if you want it different, then ask for a new set that has what you want in it.

Edit: I'd also like to add using your method we would end up with "I want all the above sets but with 550 in stats instead of 400."
So I literally get my way except the game now adds copycats of these exact sets with just... better... stats... Which is just a laughable waste of dev time instead of just buffing these.

Exactly, they haven't done this in years so it's clear they're against making better versions of old sets simply to reinforce farming the exact same gear.. They always try to make them unique (sometimes failing).

The closest example is Imperfect VS Perfect sets, but this is released within the same content drop to offer Vet play more rewards. I wouldn't say this counts.

Some of the Craglorn sets show an older way of set design that clearly didn't work, you could think of them as Perfected version 1.0. This version of set design in trials seems to be replaced by the new Perfected version design.

Example:

Vicious Ophidian/Vicious Serpent

(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage, Reduces the cost of your Stamina Abilities by 8%. When an enemy you have recently damaged dies, you restore 2150 Stamina and gain Major Expedition for 8 seconds, increasing your Movement Speed by 30%.

Quick Serpent

(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) Reduces the costs of your Stamina Abilities by 8%. When an enemy you have recently damaged dies, you gain Major Expedition for 8 seconds, increasing your Movement Speed by 30%.

Quick Serpent doesn't do anything more than Vicious Serpent. It's a wasted set and VO is not that much harder to obtain. They're not going to remake any of the sets mentioned in this thread because they've never shown any reason to do so in recent years.

They've recently started toying with newer modifiers that play with risk vs reward. Instead of bonuses being static or based on a proc chance, we are now getting sets that change with the amount of health you have or add a cost increase. This is the closest ZOS will get to doubling up on a "+ Fire dmg" set.

If they're using these sets as the baseline standard, we will end up with a set giving +5% cost, but +550 to fire damage abilities. This thread makes it clear that the condition of only buffing 1 damage type is enough of a condition to warrant +550 to fire damage abilities and I agree to some extent, especially since it doesn't buff utility skills for healing/shields.

The current 400-450 is underwhelming. I'd much rather see 500 for specialized damage types and 550 for specific skill lines.

MellowMagic

I agree with all of this, elemental sucession beats any of the other elemental focused sets and it just doesnt make sense since it can boost all of them. Magic damage always seemed silly to me and is confusing for new players who will look at war Maidens and julianos and wont be able to tell you why the latter is better. I get some abilities dont have an obvious elemental type like the wardens cliff divers but attributing an elemental type to them wouldnt be that much of a stretch. A warden bear swiping doing "magic damage" doesnt feel less crazy then a warden bear swiping doing "frost damage" also why are templar skills magic damage, I get the magdk is the "pyro" class but gimmie a break I'm throwing condensed sun at you in the shape of a spear, I'd assume it would burn you on impact

Hotdog_23

Honestly, I would to see Julianos and Hunting’s buffed as well. 299 weapon or spell damage is just too little compared to the new sets released. This would add more flexibility to builds especially since they can be crafted. 550 Would be to much but 400-450 would be nice. Then these older sets would see more use again. God forbid they possibly make it back in the meta bis contingent.

YandereGirlfriend

I think it makes sense that a 6-trait set sits below a 9-trait set in terms of buffs provided.

That also said, I'm generally against crafted sets (and Overland sets) being BiS for PvE content since you can obtain them without ever setting foot inside a dungeon or trial simply by crafting or, even easier, buying them from a guild trader.

For PvP, I think it's totally fine since there's generally a less strict meta and more room for creativity and experimentation (though NMA severely puts this thesis to the test...).

On the other hand, it WOULD be kind of awesome if there were actual bind-on-equip BiS PvP sets that you could get from leaderboards or end-of-campaign rewards to actually, you know, obtain elite PvP gear from actual PvP performance.

Bradyfjord

Sadly, the new sets have introduced another version of power creep. I wish we could have more horizontal choice rather than things that are clearly numerically superior.

In the larger sense, practically every video game ever has some form of power creep. So ESO having power creep is not a strange thing.

Having said all of that, I agree with @Kittytravel in that if there is some new 'baseline' for sets then we should have all of these sets brought up to the new standard.

Larcomar

Agree whole heartedly with this. One of the great things ESO has going for it is the sets. Collecting them and playing around with different builds is one of the joys of the game for me. Sadly, I find most of the sets I collect are actually pretty useless, some niche ones aside. I collect em, play with them a bit, then stick them in a chest.

To give a concrete example of this, Ive been playing around with a pure shock build on my sorc to use with netches touch. Not something I'd take into group dungeons, but might be fun for overland. Testing that out on a skelly though you know what, mother's sorrow beats netch every time.

Similarly, I found I had a bizarrely large collection of spider cultist. Esp shock staves... Started playing around with a build but found that a) as others have pointed out, it's hard to do a destro staff skill based build - I mean its heavy attacks, Fp/CS, UWE and impulse? And b) oh, mother's sorrow is going to be better DPS.

I'm still collecting stuff like sword singer and sword dancer, but suspect I wont even bother finishing them off or putting something together for them. I don't know melee nearly as well, but I can already see it's just going to be a repeat of the above.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with there being a meta / BIS outfit for a class, though it's a bit odd that it's an overland set that you can put together in half an hour from guild traders.

What seems off is that, even when you are doing a clearly non meta, very niche set up, you're still better off bunging on the bog standard kit you wear for everything else - rather than the niche set that's specifically designed for it.

At the end of the day, this just limits the game's potential. I can understand that ZOS' focus is going to be on new sets in dlc to encourage people to buy ESO+ / expansions. But making these old sets viable for *niche* builds would add depth and ultimately greater longevity to the game for those of us that don't want to constantly chase the meta.

Vajrak

...Regarding War Maiden...

Templar, Nightblade, and Dark Magic Sorc can all use heavy magic-damage builds.
I wouldn't turn it down, as I use War Maiden consistently, and that would take me just a touch over 5k spell damage with around 60% crit.

Kilcosu

another set that falls into the same vein as those mentioned above is salvation.

2pc: 1096 stamina
3pc: 129 stamina recovery
4pc: 1096 stamina
5pc: reduce cost of werewolf transformation by 33%. while in werewolf form weapon damage is increased by 150

to my understanding this increase to weapon damage was nerfed due to a bug in the set itself and was never fixed, which is unfortunate as very very few use this set.

I think this could be a good opportunity for this set to be altogether reworked or at least bumped up to match the other sets such as sword singer or strength of the automaton

Sanguinor2

Vajrak wrote: »

...Regarding War Maiden...

Templar, Nightblade, and Dark Magic Sorc can all use heavy magic-damage builds.
I wouldn't turn it down, as I use War Maiden consistently, and that would take me just a touch over 5k spell damage with around 60% crit.

Magic Damage Thing is true, but the Point of the thread is that you can just use new moon instead of war maiden and get more spell Damage to everything (healing included) than you get from war maiden which exclusively buffs one Damage type.

Kittytravel

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honestly, I would to see Julianos and Hunting’s buffed as well.

I'll disagree there but only because Hundings and Julianos still see a lot of use in the game for baseline starter DPS. They are paired with NMA typically to create a strong starting baseline point with the user only having sustain issues if they don't manage resources very well which can be easily circumvented via monster sets. I've given several of my casual guild members NMA/Julianos or Hundings with the Engine Guardian monster set. They can pull around 20-25k DPS with it which isn't bad for easy crafted sets and they have zero sustain issues thanks to the incredible amount of resources Engine Guardian gives back to them.

Kilcosu wrote: »

another set that falls into the same vein as those mentioned above is salvation.

2pc: 1096 stamina
3pc: 129 stamina recovery
4pc: 1096 stamina
5pc: reduce cost of werewolf transformation by 33%. while in werewolf form weapon damage is increased by 150

I do think that set is in need of a lookover but I don't think it falls into this category. All the "Werewolf" specialty sets in general with the exception of Blood Moon likely needs looked over but that's another thread for another time after this one hopefully gets some notice and acknowledgement from ZOS.

Vajrak wrote: »

...Regarding War Maiden...
Templar, Nightblade, and Dark Magic Sorc can all use heavy magic-damage builds.
I wouldn't turn it down, as I use War Maiden consistently, and that would take me just a touch over 5k spell damage with around 60% crit.

As someone already stated; you will have 5k spell damage to Magic Damage abilities only. You are sacrificing the theoretical 550 of that in shields and healing, so you are hindering your own survivability in the place of damage which is fine. That's my entire point with this thread as there are several tradeoffs for the niche sets that justify having them at 550 values; you are taking a high power reward for the tradeoff of other skills/stats not being given to you in all categories. I just want it to be clear that these "buffs" to these sets already harbor massive tradeoffs to other skills and even with these buffs NMA would still be superior for that reason.

Fur_like_snow

In that case hundings and julianos would also need to be buffed.

Gilvoth

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

In that case hundings and julianos would also need to be buffed.

and if we follow that method, it unfolds globaly in eso ...
as i mentioned earlier, this threads reqest will completely change eso, in a negative way.

Kittytravel

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

In that case hundings and julianos would also need to be buffed.

As explained earlier Hundings and Julianos are both still considered very viable starter sets and have no drawbacks on their use. They affect all abilities, every skill line, and every single stat in that you have there is no limitation. They are not Niche, they are not Specialty, so you can't say they need buffed when they are in a very good place in the game currently. Both of these sets are literally starter-recommended sets for crafting and that's where they should stay.

Gilvoth wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

In that case hundings and julianos would also need to be buffed.

and if we follow that method, it unfolds globaly in eso ...
as i mentioned earlier, this threads reqest will completely change eso, in a negative way.

@Gilvoth No it won't, it likely wouldn't change the meta at all for the above stated reasons. I've asked you to explain your reasoning multiple times and each time you've met me with "Well it's just because I say so". Do you mind going into detail, perhaps with coefficients of why these changes would be detrimental? Or maybe show me a theoretical equation on a DPS parse of why these would break the meta where people in certain sets and setups can hit 90k+ DPS in actual trials.
If you can show me, using any of the above sets that are proposed for changes in their current states, that you can hit above 75k DPS on a Trial Atronach Dummy then I will consider your argument a good one; but in the condition you present your argument it's literally the same as me saying "Mustard is bad because it is."

When you make a statement you should be prepared to support it, and if you can't then the statement becomes unreasonable and only serves to degrade discourse and discussion. I'm not trying to be an *** about it but it's rather frustrating that you post on a thread with no justification for your opinion other than "because I say so".

I will make it explicitly clear that I am not asking for buffs to any other set than the ones I have listed in my OP. I do not think Hundings or Julianos need tuned as they are useful in their current state in a wide range of builds. I am only concerned with the original sets I posted because they are useless as is and they have an original intention of excelling in a certain skill line/school of damage and despite that intention they are literally beat out by any other jack-of-all-trades set in the game.

kojou

I would like to see Minor Slayer added to the Maelstrom Arena sets. That would be a huge boost to their usability without causing a balance shift in PvP.

For the others... I find it hard to care because even with a little buff they would still be niche and with too much of a buff they will cause endless forum threads from players getting dispatched in Cyrodiil

Kittytravel

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see Minor Slayer added to the Maelstrom Arena sets. That would be a huge boost to their usability without causing a balance shift in PvP.

For the others... I find it hard to care because even with a little buff they would still be niche and with too much of a buff they will cause endless forum threads from players getting dispatched in Cyrodiil

I could see that possibly happening but this thread isn't for those so I would appreciate staying on topic; I'm sure this won't be the last thread I make asking for buffs to be made to sets that have just become so far removed from the power gap that they aren't even considerable in any situation; most of the Arena 5pc sets fall into that as well.

Niche is the reason I want them buffed as they should outperform other options for their chosen task and people who want to RP as full-frost Wardens shouldn't be punished as heavily as they currently are. As for the Cyrodiil thing well... PvP isn't possible to make everyone happy; they will always call something too overpowered and needs removed. This is a pretty common thing with most PvP; I'd also like to point out though that Clever Alchemist is almost certainly a better choice VS any of these sets for PvP though since it'll be higher burst value with 675 WD/SD allowing you to get bonuses to all things including healing/shields rather than 550 to only a certain type of skill line/damage category. The way certain skills scale is better than others and that will always make pure WD/SD better than specialty ones.

Edit: Mind you I don't have any full elemental builds because I acknowledge they are garbage in their current state. But I'd be a little less worried seeing one in my group if these sets were buffed to a point possibly adding anywhere from 3-5k extra DPS onto their rotation.

YandereGirlfriend

I would LOVE to see Minor Slayer added to Succession (and the other sets as well) and totally agree with your sentiment.

It is beyond frustrating "having" to use the mediocre trial Magicka sets in situations where there are clearly superior alternatives (e.g. FG if you don't have sustain issues, MA if not a NB/Templar, Siroria in any mobile fight, unreliable Moondancer...) simply for the Minor Slayer.

MashmalloMan

They won't touch Hundings/Julianos and they shouldn't. Those serve as the baseline for many, many sets and I'd argue they use them to figure out how to make most of the sets going forward.

The arguement for these specialized damage/skill line sets to be buffed is the only valid arguement, they don't offer enough additional damage to make up for the loss of damage in every other damage type/skill line, plus weaker heals. In many cases, losing 100 damage for hundings/julianos to get more damage for other damage types/heals vastly outweighs the small benefit.

Not that hard to figure out:

129 Damage = 1-4 piece bonus.
300 Damage = 5 piece bonus (hundings/julianos).
300/129 = 2.325

1487 Penetration = 1-4 piece bonus.
3450 Penetration = 5 piece bonus (spriggan's/spinners).
3450/1487 = 2.32

833 Critical = 1-4 piece bonus
1924 Critical = 5 piece bonus (leviathan/mother's sorrow)
1924/833 = 2.309

These multipliers are all within 1% of each other. This is not a coincidence. People are throwing around numbers without any justification. You're just feeding the power creep if you really think base static sets like hundings should be buffed. This is the baseline for everything they design. The same math is present when you look at Mundus stones, Weapon Traits, Weapon Passives, racial passives, etc.

Hotdog_23

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They won't touch Hundings/Julianos and they shouldn't. Those serve as the baseline for many, many sets and I'd argue they use them to figure out how to make most of the sets going forward.

The arguement for these specialized damage/skill line sets to be buffed is the only valid arguement, they don't offer enough additional damage to make up for the loss of damage in every other damage type/skill line, plus weaker heals. In many cases, losing 100 damage for hundings/julianos to get more damage for other damage types/heals vastly outweighs the small benefit.

Not that hard to figure out:

129 Damage = 1-4 piece bonus.
300 Damage = 5 piece bonus (hundings/julianos).
300/129 = 2.325

1487 Penetration = 1-4 piece bonus.
3450 Penetration = 5 piece bonus (spriggan's/spinners).
3450/1487 = 2.32

833 Critical = 1-4 piece bonus
1924 Critical = 5 piece bonus (leviathan/mother's sorrow)
1924/833 = 2.309

These multipliers are all within 1% of each other. This is not a coincidence. People are throwing around numbers without any justification. You're just feeding the power creep if you really think base static sets like hundings should be buffed. This is the baseline for everything they design. The same math is present when you look at Mundus stones, Weapon Traits, Weapon Passives, racial passives, etc.

I agree you are right. Just sad that Hundings/Julianos is base damage only. Just wish they were more impactful and mean more in high-end DPS and not as started type sets.

universal_wrath

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Honestly, those sets are so specialized I think it's reasonable to bump the damage up to 600+. No build is going to be able to get away with running only shock damage, only ice, or only magic damage. You simply wont have enough skills to use of the proper element to fill out your rotation.

Elemental Succession works best on Necromance's amd DKs, mostly because they can afford to cut plain magic damage skills out of their builds, and still be relatively fine.

War Maiden is a huge waste unless someone can figure out how to DPS in a healing staff.

Also Sword Singer and Sword Dancer are comparable to Spider Cultists Cowl. 2H and DW analogues.

current meta for most pvp stamina set up is 2h, you give 600+ weapon dmg to most used skills in pvp will only make other set not viable. likewise, fire dmg is strongest magicka dmg in game even though it supposed to be magic dmg, 600+ spell dmg on a set like the set will make sets like siroria and spell strategist look like a joke, espelcaily since almost every magicka spec is using fire dmg.

Kittytravel

universal_wrath wrote: »

current meta for most pvp stamina set up is 2h, you give 600+ weapon dmg to most used skills in pvp will only make other set not viable. likewise, fire dmg is strongest magicka dmg in game even though it supposed to be magic dmg, 600+ spell dmg on a set like the set will make sets like siroria and spell strategist look like a joke, espelcaily since almost every magicka spec is using fire dmg.

I already acknowledged that the only set that could upset this is Sword Singer; however as you say PvP Stam setup is 2H but the reason sets are used is because they offer more than just 2H damage and you are ignoring that. To prove my point let's look at the best stam heal in the game.
Vigor = 0.2219 Stamina + 2.33304 WD - 0.173533 (Stamina, R2 = 0.999997, ratio = 10.51)

You can see that Vigor scales VERY well off WD and by using a buffed sword singer you are losing 550 Weapon Damage from your heal, you are essentially going all in on damage to burst down your opponent before he can burst you down. So why take this set over Clever Alchemist which can hand you 675 WD/SD a whole 125 above the theoretically buffed Sword Singers AND applies to all abilities. It won't make any other set "not viable" as you say because you are completely ignoring Sword Singers massive drawback of it only applying to 2H abilities.

Your second point makes little sense to me as every Magicka spec uses fire damage because they are tied to Destro Staff, not because their kit has it... only one type of Magicka DD uses any fire from beyond Destro skill line and that's Dragonknight. Inferno stave grants a lot of damage boosts through their passives and that's why their damage type is meta, but it is most certainly not the majority of what a class is using. I'll go ahead and list out the average amount of skills used in a build and I will go ahead and use Alcast as my example. We are going to be talking in PvE terms only because in PvP Silks of the Sun is immediately out because it doesn't scale with shields and that's a death sentence for Magicka users.

Necro Magicka - Ricochet Skull, Blastbones, Wall of Elements, Shooting Star (Only used on Trash, not Bosses).
Dragonknight Magicka - Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames Molten Whip, Wall of Elements, Eruption, Flames of Oblivion, Shooting Star, Standard of Might.
Sorcerer Magicka - Wall of Elements, Shooting Star.
Nightblade Magicka - Wall of Elements, Shooting Star.
Warden Magicka - Wall of Elements.
Magicka Templar - Wall of Elements, Elemental Rage.

As you can see... yeah there really isn't much fire used currently. Using an Inferno Staff doesn't make everything you do "Flame" damage only Destruction Staff skill line; 550 to one type of damage isn't worth using all flame spells over 481 to every damage type. Likewise you claim Siroria and Spell Strategist would look like a joke; but you are just plain and simple wrong here. Spell Strategist is 5 second of 500 Spell Damage against a marked target for ALL spells not just Flame, you aren't beating that out with 550 to only Flame. Second Siroria's was beat out a long time ago by False God's and is really only still used by Magicka Templars who have to stay in their Channeled Focus anyhow.

Once more I reiterate, 550 in one type of damage does not at all make up for 481 in every single category and skill. Your heals are not "Flame" heals or "Two-Handed" heals. Your shields are not "Flame" shields.

Edit: I also forgot to mention you ignored Elemental Succession which does grant 550 SD to 3 different types of category of Magicka elements and still doesn't beat out Siroria's, Spell Strategist, or False Gods.

WrathOfInnos

Yes good point. I could see going up to 550 or 600 weapon or Spell Damage on the 5pc set bonus for these single damage type or single weapon skill line sets. Then it would be a more obvious damage increase relative to how conditional the bonus is.