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Do you feel like the insane amounts of AOE are ruining skilled PVP gameplay?
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universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Other opinion.Some AoE skills hit hurder than single target skills just look at curse, japs, whirling blades, shalks, blastbones and many more. They are either strong or single targets abilities are weak. Though some AoE abilities serve another purpose like heals, fears, snare....etc, these ones need to be monitored as some are too expensove for what they do or too cheap. All in all, it is very hard to balance in pvp while we yse same abilities for pve, which is why both pvp and pve need to be seperated when balance; ZOS have done then in the past for skills like ambush 2 or 3 patches ago when it snared player but stunned NPCs.0 -
BackStabeth✭✭✭✭✭I personally think that the amount of AOE we face in PVP is way out of hand and is a part of what makes this game extremely frustrating to play and drives a lot of players away from places like IC or Battlegrounds, especially smallscale or solo. Yes, Medium has shuffle, and there are a lot of class abilities which make dealing with AOE slightly easier or simply allow you to get away. That however leads to 2 situations:
A.) you either have to just run and never engage and purposely stay away from certain groups, if you're not tanky enough or get vastly outnumbered
B.) Attempt to focus on hit-and-run only, playstyle.
C.) you build around it, resulting in ridiculously long, disengaging fights
Look at the meta or high skill PVP gameplay. Everyone is a tank, first and foremost, because of the unbearable amounts of AOE, the ST burst alone can mostly be avoided, dodged, blocked. Most of AOE is straight up unavoidable, especially combined with stacking slow/snare/root/CC effects. A potential for actually skilled, timed, set-up kills diminishes the more we add AOEs and the more we build tanky. It makes PvP rather unsatisfying, other than getting your daily dose of dopamine from finishing a frustrating, anger-inducing fight. At least to me.
In most MMOs AoEs in PVP are usually very weak and near ineffective or useless for the damage purposes in 1v1 or up to 5v5 and even 10v10 or more, and only serve as utility of some sort - unless they are a form of class burst mechanic (like for example: Shalks - which is totally fine by me.). These AoEs are usually balanced and tuned so well so that regular, most often occuring, small scale PvP doesn't lose its skilled gameplay model, while actually becoming quite powerful in large group setting. Large groups are where the high numbers of stacked up AOEs infact do become useful. In ESO however, we're hitting this threshold already in groups of 3 and more players, and that's way out of hand.
My opinion anyways. Call me bad or call me a noob, maybe i don't understand anything. It's just how I've felt for the past + - year and a half, as AoEs have been slowly increasing in presence and strength. Also, imho, it's not really a problem of how many AoEs we can stack, rather than how most AoEs are hitting for nearly the same amount of damage as most single target abilities. They are only slightly weaker.
There is no skilled PvP play in ESO, if you think otherwise you have no idea what serious PvP consists of.6 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, AOE is fine as it is.Urzigurumash wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I think the biggest culprit for ruining pvp is proc sets. Free damage for showing up...
You can wear a defensive set and morkuldin and light attack your way to victory.
This is of course one example of many different set ups, that takes the skill out of combat.
That makes PVP instantly accessible for player that don't want to learn to fight.
You don't even have to worry about resource management as the proc is just free damage.
AOE is fine, I have never had a fight unless against ball groups and thought aoe is a problem.
Nerf Morkuldin huh? Well that didn't take long. Guess I'll be searching through my storage chests first thing once this patch is done.
They also need to address the free damage we get from flat bonus sets. Free damage!! You gotta pay for it in my book. Each cast of a damaging skill should prompt you for a quick shell game with Pacrooti to see how much it will cost you.
I didn't intend it as a direct attack at morkuldin, it could be most proc set in my mind...
Set's that proc and give you additional damage are fine, set's that do all your damage for you aren't in my book.
It rewards minimal effort and skill. It also eliminates a lot of resource management.
It is just my opinion though...Edited by relentless_turnip on March 10, 2020 8:08AM2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, AOE is fine as it is.I"m not at all surprised by the results of this poll.relentless_turnip wrote: »I"m not at all surprised by the results of this poll — people don't like having to aim. It tends to interfere with the fluidity of their preferred 1-button combo.
Blastbones, Jabs, & Shalks would like to have a word with you.Single target abilities do hit harder than AOEs. Have you tried increasing your damage?
Blastbones, Jabs and shalks do all hit harder than any aoe. Just look at the tooltips.
My blastbones for instance hits for 21K with 5.8k weapon damage... which is pretty low WD comparatively to others.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. @Kartalin said that "single target abilities do hit harder than AOEs" and I was simply showing that that isn't necessarily the case. Blastbones, Jabs, and Shalks are all AOEs. My point is that they're AOEs that hit harder than single target abilities, and two of them even have Major Defile/Major Fracture attached to them — debuffs that ZOS stripped from Nightblade single-target abilities because they were "OP."
My apologies, I did misunderstand you. These abilities all have more of conal effect than a traditional AOE. I still think AOE's are fine.
Edited by relentless_turnip on March 10, 2020 8:09AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, AOE is fine as it is.Wow, could OP bias the poll more than they have by telling people how bad AoE is. Even the title is designed to bring in a particular type of person. Fortunately, that is failing but still worth pointing out.
AoE is fine as it is. I have never had a death thinking of how bad AoE was. Yes, I have had a death to AoE thinking how stupid I was to walk into it, but that is my shortcomings, and I am not going to ask Zos to nerf the game because of my errors.
It does seem OP either wants to make it harder to kill zergs or may not be thinking about that when comparing AoEs in this game to games that have PvP on a much smaller scale. Granted, we have no way to tell from their first post as they merely over generalize and avoid mentioning the name of any game they are referring to, which makes for a weak opinion.Edited by idk on March 10, 2020 8:23AM3 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AoE damage is easier to handle when I am on breach getting hit by 4+ cold trebuchets at once...0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, AOE should be toned down and server more as a utility.relentless_turnip wrote: »I"m not at all surprised by the results of this poll.relentless_turnip wrote: »I"m not at all surprised by the results of this poll — people don't like having to aim. It tends to interfere with the fluidity of their preferred 1-button combo.
Blastbones, Jabs, & Shalks would like to have a word with you.Single target abilities do hit harder than AOEs. Have you tried increasing your damage?
Blastbones, Jabs and shalks do all hit harder than any aoe. Just look at the tooltips.
My blastbones for instance hits for 21K with 5.8k weapon damage... which is pretty low WD comparatively to others.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. @Kartalin said that "single target abilities do hit harder than AOEs" and I was simply showing that that isn't necessarily the case. Blastbones, Jabs, and Shalks are all AOEs. My point is that they're AOEs that hit harder than single target abilities, and two of them even have Major Defile/Major Fracture attached to them — debuffs that ZOS stripped from Nightblade single-target abilities because they were "OP."
My apologies, I did misunderstand you. These abilities all have more of conal effect than a traditional AOE. I still think AOE's are fine.
Well, AOE stands for "Area of Affect," and while two of those abilities do have an area of affect is the in shape of a cone, they are all still AOEs. It even says on the tooltips: "Target: Area." My point is, if you can hit several people with an ability it shouldn't be stronger than an ability that actually requires precision & can only hit one target.
I don't doubt that you think AOEs are fine as they stand. Anyone that plays a Warden, Templar, Necro, or DK, likely thinks the same because OP AOEs are their bread & butter.
In any case, this poll was doomed from the start — everyone wants "easy," and AOEs are much easier than actually having to pick your target and accurately aim to hit it.Edited by Langeston on March 10, 2020 12:38PM0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm indifferent to it.relentless_turnip wrote: »I didn't intend it as a direct attack at morkuldin, it could be most proc set in my mind...
Set's that proc and give you additional damage are fine, set's that do all your damage for you aren't in my book.
It rewards minimal effort and skill. It also eliminates a lot of resource management.
It is just my opinion though...
In my view, if somebody is out there in Sellistrix & Pillars of Nirn beating people in Bloodspawn & NMA, they probably put in a substantial amount of effort
My point was that proc sets aren't free damage. You're giving up a more reliable and versatile 5 piece for it.
Anyhow this is terribly irrelevant to this thread
Edited by Urzigurumash on March 10, 2020 9:22AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »You can wear a defensive set and morkuldin and light attack your way to victory.
I think I see a Morkuldin about once every 3 months. Certainly rare enough I look at it and go "hey, wow, morkuldin".2 -
Levianna✭✭✭No, AOE is fine as it is.No, AoE is fine just as it is, and you become more skilled in dealing with these so it won't annoy you anymore.There's no Higher... not outside the man.0 -
gp1680✭✭✭✭✭No, AOE is fine as it is.AOE is the least of the issues. CC spams, lag, and skills not going off are the worst in PvP.2
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Grianasteri✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm indifferent to it.I have never found AOE damage to be of any concern in Cyrodiil. There are plenty of issues, but personally AOE has never struck me as one of them.1 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, AOE should be toned down and server more as a utility.relentless_turnip wrote: »You can wear a defensive set and morkuldin and light attack your way to victory.
I think I see a Morkuldin about once every 3 months. Certainly rare enough I look at it and go "hey, wow, morkuldin".
It's everywhere in PvP atm.0 -
precambria✭✭✭✭✭The idea that somehow AOE spells take "less skill" is false, they cost resources have to be placed or are extremely limited in range or damage potential the effective application of AOE takes as much skill as using a burst combo.
It may appear to lower skill level players that AOE is just the same as their damage but hit's many targets, but that is because they stand in it or don't know how to kite/LoS, also they do not understand the difference between centrifuge AOE, Placed AOE and SPLASH damage AOE. It's ok, just keep practicing you will figure it out, btw major evasion is not hard to access lol, same with prot, literally blackrose DW and shuffle or elude is 30%+25% reduction... it's a l2p issue.
Edit to add; MANY of the aoe spells in use are also DOTS, they eat a 40% nerf recently, seriously l2p lolEdited by precambria on March 10, 2020 1:04PM0 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other opinion.I'm okay with AOEs, as affecting them for PvP will have an effect on PvE.
I think it's Harmony which is the main issue, especially with ball groups in PvP. Adding something to Battle Spirit for a specific trait would be odd and against convention, and reducing the %'s would have a negative effect on PvE endgame tanks in progression groups. Not sure what the solution is, but AOEs were never really an issue until people found they could get 100%+ bonuses on synergies (perfect for the Necro combos) and completely wreck uncoordinated groups.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm indifferent to it.I think youd have to be very specific which ones or what. Not a fan of blanket statements. Most the hard hitting ultimates are AOE as an example, but to reduce those, youd have a lot more people not dieing.
Major evasion also puts a damper on AOEs where direct damage mostly can be dodged and reduced 100% but dodge is not up for 20 seconds.
It's just too nuanced to say "nerd all AOE damage"0 -
Chaos2088✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm indifferent to it.With the way people complain about things we are all just going to end up light attacking eachother and bashing.@Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP3 -
PrimusNephilim✭✭✭✭✭Other opinion.......another nurf thread, lets get the performance of the game working (better) before we start with the nerf hammers again3
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Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, AOE should be toned down and server more as a utility.Harmony is the only thing that needs to be toned doen1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, AOE should be toned down and server more as a utility.precambria wrote: »The idea that somehow AOE spells take "less skill" is false, they cost resources have to be placed or are extremely limited in range or damage potential the effective application of AOE takes as much skill as using a burst combo.
It may appear to lower skill level players that AOE is just the same as their damage but hit's many targets, but that is because they stand in it or don't know how to kite/LoS, also they do not understand the difference between centrifuge AOE, Placed AOE and SPLASH damage AOE. It's ok, just keep practicing you will figure it out, btw major evasion is not hard to access lol, same with prot, literally blackrose DW and shuffle or elude is 30%+25% reduction... it's a l2p issue.
Edit to add; MANY of the aoe spells in use are also DOTS, they eat a 40% nerf recently, seriously l2p lol
This is demonstrably false. Many AOE abilities don't even require a target — simply aim in the general direction of what you want to hit & cross your fingers (i.e. Shalks, Jabs, Dawnbreaker, Spin-to-Win). Most AOE abilities are also undodgable, and thus much more forgiving with regards to timing your attack.
I've probably never accidentally hit someone with Swallow Soul & I know I've never hit anyone accidentally with Merciless Resolve — but I can't tell you how many times I've been stunned/damaged by Streak-spamming sorcs, Shalks-spamming wardens, or Leap-spamming DKs, or blastbones that were aimed at someone else (when they didn't even know I was there).Edited by Langeston on March 10, 2020 3:33PM0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, AOE is fine as it is.BackStabeth wrote: »I personally think that the amount of AOE we face in PVP is way out of hand and is a part of what makes this game extremely frustrating to play and drives a lot of players away from places like IC or Battlegrounds, especially smallscale or solo. Yes, Medium has shuffle, and there are a lot of class abilities which make dealing with AOE slightly easier or simply allow you to get away. That however leads to 2 situations:
A.) you either have to just run and never engage and purposely stay away from certain groups, if you're not tanky enough or get vastly outnumbered
B.) Attempt to focus on hit-and-run only, playstyle.
C.) you build around it, resulting in ridiculously long, disengaging fights
Look at the meta or high skill PVP gameplay. Everyone is a tank, first and foremost, because of the unbearable amounts of AOE, the ST burst alone can mostly be avoided, dodged, blocked. Most of AOE is straight up unavoidable, especially combined with stacking slow/snare/root/CC effects. A potential for actually skilled, timed, set-up kills diminishes the more we add AOEs and the more we build tanky. It makes PvP rather unsatisfying, other than getting your daily dose of dopamine from finishing a frustrating, anger-inducing fight. At least to me.
In most MMOs AoEs in PVP are usually very weak and near ineffective or useless for the damage purposes in 1v1 or up to 5v5 and even 10v10 or more, and only serve as utility of some sort - unless they are a form of class burst mechanic (like for example: Shalks - which is totally fine by me.). These AoEs are usually balanced and tuned so well so that regular, most often occuring, small scale PvP doesn't lose its skilled gameplay model, while actually becoming quite powerful in large group setting. Large groups are where the high numbers of stacked up AOEs infact do become useful. In ESO however, we're hitting this threshold already in groups of 3 and more players, and that's way out of hand.
My opinion anyways. Call me bad or call me a noob, maybe i don't understand anything. It's just how I've felt for the past + - year and a half, as AoEs have been slowly increasing in presence and strength. Also, imho, it's not really a problem of how many AoEs we can stack, rather than how most AoEs are hitting for nearly the same amount of damage as most single target abilities. They are only slightly weaker.
There is no skilled PvP play in ESO, if you think otherwise you have no idea what serious PvP consists of.
I chuckle every time! My goodness play a real pvp game and then talk skillful play.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
precambria✭✭✭✭✭precambria wrote: »The idea that somehow AOE spells take "less skill" is false, they cost resources have to be placed or are extremely limited in range or damage potential the effective application of AOE takes as much skill as using a burst combo.
It may appear to lower skill level players that AOE is just the same as their damage but hit's many targets, but that is because they stand in it or don't know how to kite/LoS, also they do not understand the difference between centrifuge AOE, Placed AOE and SPLASH damage AOE. It's ok, just keep practicing you will figure it out, btw major evasion is not hard to access lol, same with prot, literally blackrose DW and shuffle or elude is 30%+25% reduction... it's a l2p issue.
Edit to add; MANY of the aoe spells in use are also DOTS, they eat a 40% nerf recently, seriously l2p lol
This is demonstrably false. Many AOE abilities don't even require a target — simply aim in the general direction of what you want to hit & cross your fingers (i.e. Shalks, Jabs, Dawnbreaker, Spin-to-Win). Most AOE abilities are also undodgable, and thus much more forgiving with regards to timing your attack.
I've probably never accidentally hit someone with Swallow Soul & I know I've never hit anyone accidentally with Merciless Resolve — but I can't tell you how many times I've been stunned/damaged by Streak-spamming sorcs, Shalks-spamming wardens, or Leap-spamming DKs, or blastbones that were aimed at someone else (when they didn't even know I was there).
Shalks is a delayed centrifuge spell, you can block it and it can't be spammed, dawnbreaker is a cone with a cast time it's one of the easiest ults to avoid in the game on it's own, Jab's is a channeled cleave spell that requires near melee range and it can be blocked, Spin is a centrifuge spammable but it's melee and requires execute range to do good damage. Notice how none of those spells are over 10 meters, and all have different functions which limit their output you can't even use them without setup effort of getting in range CCing ect, the reason you are "accidentally" getting hit with spells is because you are using cloak of shadows for something it can't do which is be a replacement for good positioning0 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, AOE should be stronger in PVPI absolutely want to vaporize large groups. I want walking through AOE DOT effects in PVP to be deadly unless your built to deal with it, Big armies need big spells to deal with them.0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, AOE should be toned down and server more as a utility.
1. I'm not sure what your point is here. My point was that they don't need a target and "close" is often good enough. Skills like that shouldn't do more damage to multiple targets than a single target ability.precambria wrote: »Shalks is a delayed centrifuge spell, you can block it and it can't be spammed, dawnbreaker is a cone with a cast time it's one of the easiest ults to avoid in the game on it's own, Jab's is a channeled cleave spell that requires near melee range and it can be blocked, Spin is a centrifuge spammable but it's melee and requires execute range to do good damage.
2. Tell that to the wardens that spam it.
3. I almost always land Dawnbreaker — that's why I use it now instead of Soul Harvest/Incap. It's braindead easy compared to both of those abilities, does more damage, and I can kill 3 people where I used to only kill 1.
4. Jabs is the highest damage spammable in the game, does it's damage to the closest enemy within eight meters and does 10% more against blocking targets. [/quote]
Gap-close, spam AOE — it isn't difficult, as thousands of templars can attest.Notice how none of those spells are over 10 meters, and all have different functions which limit their output you can't even use them without setup effort of getting in range CCing ect,
No, Shade is for positioning.the reason you are "accidentally" getting hit with spells is because you are using cloak of shadows for something it can't do which is be a replacement for good positioning
I think if you mained a class that relies solely on single target abilities you might feel differently. In any case, we're going to have to agree to disagree.Edited by Langeston on March 10, 2020 7:17PM0 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other opinion.There are certain AoEs that are overperforming, but thats not because they are AoEs, but because their damage is insane a jabspamming Templar deals more damage with 1 cast of Jabs than a Stamsorc with D Swing. And not just a bit more but over 6k more damage.
Most AoEs rarely get used in PvP, because many of them are stationary, the destroult can be either cast on an area or around yourself it still is easy to avoid and doesn't deal nearly as much damage as a Jabspam Templar that you can't even escape thanks to that stupid Snare with the very first hit. Jabs right now are: get hit and you die. There is no way to avoid them (especially if the templar opens with Toppling Charge (stuns you before the templar arrives at your position, and you can't break free till he arrived)), they have ridiculus range (disables escape), they are AoE (disables Dodgerole), and they slow you down (disables run for it).
So yeah the only AoE I have issues with are jabs, all the others are completely fine.
To refer to that AoE Ballgroups it again is not the power of the AoE but the number of AoEs. They are sad little childs with no capability to fight the easiest opponents on their own. To sum up they are garbage players with no skill whatsoever. They win through number not through AoE nor skill, the harmony trait isn't helping that either.Edited by L_Nici on March 10, 2020 6:04PMPC|EU0
