do you enjoy the veteran arenas?

Sergykid · March 2020

please no talk about performance, like "i would like X arena if my spells would fire properly". I want to talk strictly about the activities as they are designed.
A guild member which is the GM with full guild house, much invested both time and money, talked an evening about this and seemed interesting, and even tho it's obvious, i wanted to have it written down.

who does the vet arenas in ESO because he likes them? everyone does an arena to get what they need from there, and then never touch them again. When was the last time someone said "hey, i really liked the vDSA experience, let's do it again sometimes"? You run an arena to get the gear you want then never go again because everything in these arenas is stressful and demanding to complete.

it's either loot lammas and hoarders either elites that milk every unit of power, which only farm their gear without any real purpose. Content is either too easy (normal arenas) or too difficult. It's rare cases where something is right and enjoyable. What is the completion rate of vBRP? how many of those repeat the content after they get their item, because of how enjoyable it is? same applies to vDSA. Sure now vMA is the only challenge where you don't depend on your group but that is also some rng luck and very heavily dependent on knowledge.

arenas don't teach you what to do, you have to die repeatedly until you finally discover what should be done, and that is done via excessive one-shot mechanics. Or you must go to search online on external sources like wikis or youtube. I have finished all arenas, on multiple characters, and i can say it's very rare to get a group to do them. I know this is hard content for stronger people, but people do not avoid them because of how difficult they are, but because of how unpleasant and time consuming it is to learn them, and how demanding are those both in knowledge and gear. "20k dps is enough for any content in the game" yeah sure see you finish vBRP with 40k total group dps.

karekiz · March 2020

I enjoy VBRP more than VDSA simply because 5 stages is a better feel than 9. VDSA around stage 6 even in fast groups feels like its going on a tad too long.

As for the DPS comment, for those players should do BRP on normal you still get the drops without a 1st set bonus <which is 100% fine with me>. Normal BRP is just fine with lower DPS.

Jaimeh · March 2020

I did all arenas, group and solo, multiple times just in the last couple of weeks alone, and at least in the guilds/discords I'm part of, I frequently see requests to run them. I wouldn't call either vMA or vDSA 'unpleasant' or 'time consuming', especially when it comes to veteran players. It's a different story with newer players, but that's true for all end-game content for them. They both have brilliant mechanics and design, and are still enjoyable and rewarding to run--quite literally since MA and master weapons are still very much relevant in builds. BRP is a different beast for various reasons. The design is uninspired and not very interesting, the 4st stage is basically a repeat of all the mechanics seen in the previous stages thrown in together. Plus, because there's a lot of bugs found in the trial, and because the mechanics are essentially 'a whole lotta damage' (which I suspect had something to do with complains about healers' relevance in the game, which were already present at the time), it's not an enjoyable content, and hence not as popular. If they fixed the bugs, it would definitely be more popular.

WrathOfInnos · March 2020

I enjoy vMA and vDSA, but never really liked vBRP. It is short, repetitive, chaotic, and gives lackluster rewards. Stage 4 should not even exist, it’s a clip show from Stages 1-3 to pad the run time.

whitecrow · March 2020

I have no intention of doing the veteran arenas. I don't enjoy vet content much in general. I can do dungeons if they aren't the harder ones, and I've completed one vet trial, but I don't find it to be particularly fun.

I've seen guildmates who try for months to conquer a vet arena and I'm just like why...why would you do that to yourself?

pod88kk · March 2020

I like VBRP but seeing as there's so little of a difference between the weapons from vet to normal there's not much point running it on vet apart from bragging rights.

Looking forward to the uproar when the next arena drops as Snipe is going to get buffed

pelle412 · March 2020

There's quite a few people who run arenas because they want to get better at them, improve their times and scores.

The bigger question for OP is, what content do you do repeatedly for fun? How many times do you run Crypt of Hearts excluding when you need gear from there, skillpoints, undaunted xp or keys?

I do honestly believe that a vast majority run content because it has something they want, be it gear, skillpoints, undaunted points/keys etc.

dazee · March 2020

VDSA: Yes.

VMA: Stage 5 can suck it. It punishes high dps, accidentally hitting the giant final boss even once results in guaranteed death. No thanks, I'll use Masters bow.

Anhedonie · March 2020

vDSA is awesome. vMA is good. VBRP has some questionable design choices, so not a bit fan of that one.

KingZeldaMaster · March 2020

I enjoy all of the arenas, although I probably enjoy vDSA the least out of the three. When you have a good group, vBRP can actually be quite fun; I've been progressing The Unchained for a little while now, and so far my best score has been 96k. It's a bit interesting since on my first clear, my completion time was almost 7 hours and I never wanted to do vBRP again; now I actually enjoy doing it to try out new strategies and see what works best for efficient completion.

Raisin · March 2020

Love vBRP. It's one of my favorite pieces of content to run. vDSA definitely has a tendency to feel tedious, with any type of group. vMA has grown on me I guess.
I don't think your assessment of the game not teaching mechanics is entirely correct. It gives you the pieces you need to put things together. Of course it requires a few deaths... That's the point in veteran content. I'm never going to support the train of thought that you should be able to do all content in video games first try without taking a death. Strong negative feelings regarding that trend. The replayability doesn't come from that. It comes from figuring things out, advancing through trial and error, and going from being at the content's mercy to mastering and perfecting it. We would get less from the content if it game with a step-by-step guide of when to do what, rather than pushing you in the right direction through hints and seeing you learn from your mistakes. Maybe not everybody enjoys that, but given that vBRP is one piece of 4man content, I think it's fair that it exists for those who do. IMO we need to take the pressure off of the expectation that you need an easy first clear in anything. The more you get from the journey there, the more you get from the content! Knowing mechanics doesn't have to be the basis to run something if you adjust your mindset -- figuring out mechanics can be the whole point of running something if you make that change to your perspective.
But tbh the whole difficulty debate is a lot bigger and probably goes beyond your question about enjoyment. I think arenas are fun, a good concept, and people to run them for fun. As someone else pointed out, the replayability of any content is limited so it's good to put it into context by looking at other content. Maybe arenas need something closer to pledges rather than being part of the weekly trial selection, since pledges are where the replay incentive for dungeons lies?

ForzaRammer · March 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I enjoy vMA and vDSA, but never really liked vBRP. It is short, repetitive, chaotic, and gives lackluster rewards. Stage 4 should not even exist, it’s a clip show from Stages 1-3 to pad the run time.

I agree. Zos should make a unique boss for stage 4. Also 5 adds spawn at once is just too annoying.

Sanguinor2 · March 2020

I like vDSA, vMA got stale after I farmed it 25 times in a row for transmutes and never enjoyed vBRP.

Danksta · March 2020

pod88kk wrote: »

I like VBRP but seeing as there's so little of a difference between the weapons from vet to normal there's not much point running it on vet apart from bragging rights.

Looking forward to the uproar when the next arena drops as Snipe is going to get buffed

Snipe gets buffed by the asylum bow.

Taleof2Cities · March 2020

You could say the same thing about Vet group dungeons, @Sergykid.

Some group dungeons I enjoy running (Scalecaller Peak; Depths of Malatar) ... and some I’ve farmed enough to not ever really need to enter again.

Freakin_Hytte · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

VDSA: Yes.

VMA: Stage 5 can suck it. It punishes high dps, accidentally hitting the giant final boss even once results in guaranteed death. No thanks, I'll use Masters bow.

Vma stage 5 punishes people who can't play mechanics. It's not hard to move of the platform a few seconds before the boss starts to crack the platform, people only have to think ahead a bit.

On topic: I personally enjoy Vma and Vdsa, not a big fan of Vbrp and I know a lot of people who do enjoy the vet arenas. I'm personally hoping for a new solo arena. But that will probably not happen

Varana · March 2020

I quite like vDSA except for the fact that it drags on a bit too long. Having a Maelstrom-like save point in the middle so you can come back and don't have to do it all in one go, or remove two arenas, and it would be really fun.

ValueDrift · March 2020

I loved the process of learning vMA, and farming for my first deathless run was still entertaining, but I've played it to death now and it's lost its charm. I do still occasionally do a run for nostalgia's sake, but I don't get the same enjoyment from it I used to. Haven't played the others on veteran.

Would be great to get another solo arena, when vMA was still new to me it was the most fun I've had with this game.

dazee · March 2020

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

VDSA: Yes.

VMA: Stage 5 can suck it. It punishes high dps, accidentally hitting the giant final boss even once results in guaranteed death. No thanks, I'll use Masters bow.

Vma stage 5 punishes people who can't play mechanics.

Ignorant. I can do the mechanics fine, I'm very familiar with mechanics, beyond what ESO has in most content.

the problem is if you push the boss HP too low, it will do the platform smash way faster than it should, leaving you no time to get off.

stevenyaub16_ESO · March 2020

vDSA is my least liked group content in the game. Just 9 stages of utter boredom.

vMA was a great challenge and learning experience but I never found it fun to do.

vBRP is one of my favourite 4 man contents. Great challenge, and the best place to test your builds and different characters. It was probably the first 4 man content i actively wanted to go back again just to get better at the game.

DarkPicture · March 2020

karekiz wrote: »

I enjoy VBRP more than VDSA simply because 5 stages is a better feel than 9. VDSA around stage 6 even in fast groups feels like its going on a tad too long.

As for the DPS comment, for those players should do BRP on normal you still get the drops without a 1st set bonus <which is 100% fine with me>. Normal BRP is just fine with lower DPS.

its not about of stages number only how much u spending between them, every time when u wipe or smth theres 30 sec delay in vdsa where in vbrp maybe 15 or even less.

Sergykid · March 2020

i know those arenas are supposed to be hard and this is part of the challenge, but they are not hard because of high numbers, they're hard because you don't know what to do or why you die.

in vma stages don't inform at all on what u must know, like the flywheel stage, how would u know u must go melee while boss moves? or toxic spores stage, how can u know that when one of mages die the other makes bubble for scream? yes you can interrupt boss but not everyone can fight him enraged, or last stage, how can u know that u must kill the drake at the glowing rune to make a portal to go up? just some examples

in vdsa i don't even know how last boss is supposed to be done if not for the "trick" to kill it at entrance while tank takes ads away. Even in 3 dds with 40k killing the minibosses is no option.

in vbrp there are some hints indeed, but still confusing. How can someone know that the group must stack for the bats at animals boss? or at last boss that you must keep clean for yellow circle ghosts and cleanse on a rune after 3, and each member keep its own rune.

in conclusion these arenas require less skill and more knowledge. And its way of giving knowledge is by killing you without knowing what. For me this is bad design. Things should be easy to learn hard to master, these are hard to learn easy to master, totally opposite.

Hanokihs · March 2020

The only group content I've ever outright enjoyed so far was Vaults of Madness. Because, you know, it's just a super cool and fairly unique dungeon.

On topic, Maelstrom Arena is okay... But it gets too long. Don't really need two mechanical levels, don't really need the trifecta of Lamia, Spiders, AND Poison levels either. Fire is okay, but there's a lot of fire in the final level, too. Just seems like it could've been shorter and a smidge less redundant overall.

Haven't joined a guild to do the other vet arenas and trials, but from what I've watched... Meh. Nothing really excites me to play them.

dazee · March 2020

i know those arenas are supposed to be hard and this is part of the challenge, but they are not hard because of high numbers, they're hard because you don't know what to do or why you die.

You realize I've read all the VMA guides? I'm not dying becuase I dont know or can't do mechanics.

stevenyaub16_ESO · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

You realize I've read all the VMA guides? I'm not dying becuase I dont know or can't do mechanics.

Sounds like you can't. Done it with both types of Templar with no issue. Simple L2P issue if you can't adapt.

newtinmpls · March 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

arenas don't teach you what to do, you have to die repeatedly until you finally discover what should be done, and that is done via excessive one-shot mechanics. Or you must go to search online on external sources like wikis or youtube.

I rarely do any vet content simply because of the above reason. It's not about working together with a group, it's not about using a good combination or rotation - too often it's about stupid "jump on one foot and then dance around and touch your nose" mechanics that are annoying, not fun.

I will say that there are certain sorta mechanics in older dungeons that I do like.

I like finishing the last (vampire) boss of Spindleclutch II without killing the innocents. That's cool, and do-able without BIS gear.

The Arena's I have tried have mostly been a chaotic mess - worse on teamspeak/discord because trying to direct lost newbies has gotta be like herding cats.

Fancy mechanics that are hard to understand do NOT add to anyone's enjoyment.

colossalvoids · March 2020

Don't mind vdsa but really like vma. Wasn't the case when i was going for a clear or smth years back but it is right now when you actually know perfectly what you're doing, similarly with most dlc trials or dungeons really.

Shantu · March 2020

Have all the gear I need...and still occasionally return to the arenas for fun. IMO, learning to master them makes you a better player.

thorwyn · March 2020

the problem is if you push the boss HP too low, it will do the platform smash way faster than it should, leaving you no time to get off.

If that kills you, I think you are missing relevant feedback from the game. This has nothing to do with high dps though, ignoring the trigger feedback in unrelated to damage. The same would happen with 5k dps.

1. She crushes the platform at 75% and 45% You can prepare for that by looking at the numbers.
2. She gets a red "enrage" glow around her before she goes to the middle of the platform to do her smashing jump.
3. She says "Baba Poo Yaga Yoo" before she does her thing.

What I do is: hit her with 1-2 light attacks when she spawns, lay my AOE's where the adds will spawn, bring her to 90%, single target the adds, bring her to 75% and switch patforms.
Kill the Nereids on the second platform and repeat the process. Hope that helps.

Indigogo · March 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

Things should be easy to learn hard to master, these are hard to learn easy to master, totally opposite.

So much this. I just want to be given clear direction in game then let me learn to do it well.

thorwyn · March 2020

in vma stages don't inform at all on what u must know, like the flywheel stage, how would u know u must go melee while boss moves? or toxic spores stage, how can u know that when one of mages die the other makes bubble for scream? yes you can interrupt boss but not everyone can fight him enraged, or last stage, how can u know that u must kill the drake at the glowing rune to make a portal to go up? just some examples

If the game would tell you exactly how a mechanic works in advance and what you need to do to counter it, you might as well just dump all mechanics for good. The key to any mechanic, dungeon, trial or arena, is figuring out what's going on and coming up with strategies to beat the mechanic. People who don't want to do that can just follow guides.