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do you enjoy the veteran arenas?
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Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never went into nBRP yet let alone vBRP, figure I should finish vDSA first before trying that, since I hear it's a lot more difficult.
You should be able to go into normal BRP. Like most content, esp. newer one, the jump between normal and veteran is insane, and normal BRP is quite a bit easier than vDSA. -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Not really. They are a carpal tunnel nightmare, just repetitive action after repetitive action until the wrists give out, rest, rinse and repeat. And since the best gear comes from them, they are a necessity rather than something fun to try as a change of pace, which means failure is frustrating and disheartening and adds to the pain. So they are entirely a negative experience that does not spark joy. -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭Love vMA and vDSA. I haven't tried a vBRP yet but running it fast on normal was fine.
But like was mentioned above, I wouldn't even try vMA without studying the player-written guides out there. Some of the mechanics are so obscure and so choreographed and so convoluted that I'd never have figured them out myself.
Mechanics that kinda make sense are fine: You must kill these two trash mobs because they shield the boss and you can't damage the boss until they die. Got it. And yeah, I'd figure it out.
But "Kill all mobs that are wearing green shirts because that will activate the portal you can jump in and pull all the levers that are glowing the same color as the one trash mob you left alive. The lever will teleport you to Elam Drals in the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary where you can buy a candle. Activate any synergy simultaneously with a heavy attack and you'll drop through a hole above the boss. DPS the boss to 52% health...but no less than 51% health...and the cycle will repeat. But this time, a wall of ghosts will circle the boss and you must kill every third ghost before the circle collapses..."
Yeah. No.
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worrallj✭✭✭✭✭I've only done vdsa and vma.
I really liked the vdsa experience tbh. Only done it once, and it was right in the sweet spot for me between too hard and not hard enough to where I had fun. Died a few times but not so many that I started checking the clock or my soul gems.
I'm a little less interested in solo arenas at this point- I like the group play.
For vma... I liked it ok - it was a thrill/ego boost the first time but also a slog. I died a LOT. Your right I only did it to get a weapon and I don't have big plans to do it again. But also I like having a very tough solo achievement under my belt. -
Khumbu✭✭✭No. I go in, get what I need, and get out (thank the Eight the Master’s Resto Staff dropped early!)
They aren’t awful, they just aren’t the kind of content I’d love to do over and over again for fun or for the pure challenge of it. Vet trials are much more satisfying in that department. -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭Although rng mechanics can be annoying. I still feel that clearing vMA makes people better players. I would love to see more solo arenas added into the game or perhaps an arena that adjusts to the number of peeps in an arena (1-4). *crosses fingers for some Battlespire action*(AD) Artim X |PC/NA| Primary Guild: Storm Guides NA Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer.
My Easygoing BuildsElectric-Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/hokMyu1PAKfJK/giphy.gif
Proc free DPS build for when a tank isn't holding bosses in place and for times where one is not getting buffed by a healer.
Gear: 5 Netch's Touch (All apparel Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 2 Slimecraw (All Divines. 1 med/1 heavy. Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame enchant).
Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Hardened Ward (Twilight Tormentor if one can somewhat trust both the heals and tank to keep you alive), Lightning Flood, and Power Overload.
Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Streak, Shock Reach, Dampen Magic (Twilight Tormentor if one can somewhat trust both the healer and tank to keep you alive), Unstable Wall of Storms, and Thunderous Rage.
Electric-Burn[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gif[/url]
DPS build for more organized groups.
Gear: 5 Burning Spellweave (All apparel Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 2 Grothdarr (All Divines. 1 med/1 heavy. Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Inferno Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame enchant).
Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Hardened Ward (Twilight Tormentor if one can somewhat trust both the heals and tank to keep you alive), Lightning Flood, and Power Overload.
Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Streak, Flame Reach, Dampen Magic (Twilight Tormentor if one can somewhat trust both the healer and tank to keep you alive), Unstable Wall of Fire, and Fiery Rage.
Electric-Cool[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif[/url]
Utility focused DPS build that is capable of tanking normal dungeons and vet non dlc dungeons, but it does not provide enough tank based buffs/debuffs to warrant it's use in trials/vet dlc dungeons and due to the limits of damage shields it would be too much of a liability due to the sheer number of potential one-shot mechanics that a pure tank would have an easier time dealing with.
Gear: 5 Icy Conjuror (All apparel Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 2 Iceheart (All Divines. 1 med/1 heavy. Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Ice Staff (infused/ice enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame enchant).
Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath (Elemental Drain in vet content if healer isn't using it), Hardened Ward, Lightning Flood, and Power Overload (Replenishing Barrier when healer isn't keeping others alive).
Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Streak (Inner Rage when dealing with multiple bosses), Frost Reach (Restraining Prison when I want to lock enemies down), Dampen Magic, Unstable Wall of Frost, and Icy Rage (Aggressive Horn when DPS is decent).
Electric-Healhttps://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gif
My healer build that I for the most part only use in normal dungeons/trials or in Vet premades, since playing with randoms tend to result in me being in a group that lacks DPS, has a fake tank, or both.
Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 2 spell critical monster set pieces when I don't feel like using spell crit pots, Grothdarr when I want to do more damage, Bogdan when I want more HoTs, Symphony of Blades to provide more emergency resources, or Earthgore when I feel like it would make a significant difference (All Divines. 1 med/1 heavy. Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (infused with weapon damage enchant).
Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge (Power Surge for more heals), Boundless Storm, Combat Prayer, Ward Ally (Twilight Matriarch for another burst heal and damage), Energy Orb, and Replenishing Barrier.
Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Hardened Ward (Twilight Matriarch for another burst heal and damage), Unstable Wall of Storms, and Aggressive Horn.
Electric-Vamphttps://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gif
Tanky utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players, but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (3 heavy body pieces, light waist, and medium hands. All Impenetrable. Max Mag Enchants), 2 heavy Mighty Chudan (All Impenetrable. Max Mag Enchants), and Knight Slayer jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant. Same enchant as lightning in order to maintain consistent pressure regardless of which staff you're heavy attacking with). [When more focused on damage will change Chudan pieces to medium and light. Also all my Torug body pieces to light except the chest that stays heavy].
Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Consuming Trap, Haunting Curse, Ward Ally, Rapid Regeneration, and Life Giver (or Soul Assault).
Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Elusive Mist, Rune Cage, Hardened Ward, Efficient Purge, and Shooting Star.
Electric-Wardhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gif
Damage shield tank designed to help my guildmates clear vet dungeons when a typical tank isn't available.
Gear: 5 Brands of the Imperium (All Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 2 Mother Ciannait (All Divines. 1 med/1 light. Max Mag Enchants). Combat Physician jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/Ice Staff (infused/crusher). Blackrose Restoration Staff (doesn't have to be the perfect version. infused/hardening enchant).
Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Inner Rage, Boundless Storm, Ward Ally, and Replenishing Barrier.
Ability-Bar 2: Deep Thoughts, Bound Aegis, Restraining Prison (Elemental Drain in vet content if healer isn't using it), Unstable Wall of Frost, Hardened Ward, and Temporal Guard.
PvE Starter Gearhttps://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gif
Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap. Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
Racehttps://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gif
High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
Mundus Stoneshttps://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gif
PvP: The Atronach.
PvE: I will almost always use the Atronach in this content as well (especially if I'm healing in PvE or playing it safe while solo). However, in a strong group other Mundus Stones can be effective (Thief is what I would use in a serious group as a healer. As DPS I would use Shadow or Lover depending on group), since a heavy attack rotation will ensure that you're always restoring magicka at a decent rate. When using electric-ward in vet content I will always use the Lady to reach 25k+ physical/spell resistances.
Current Champion Points[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/y2RgvEEy1R5rW/giphy.gif[/url]
Mag Sorc: More focused on damage, since changing CP isn't free. Mage: Elfborn (56), Spell Erosion (22), Elemental Expert (64), Staff Expert (44), Master-at-Arms (9), and Thaumaturge (75). Warrior: Ironclad (34), Resistant (8), Light Armor Focus (12), Hardy (32), Elemental Defender (32), Thick Skinned (31), Expert Defender (33), Bastion (56), and Quick Recovery (32). Thief: Warlord (31), Sprinter (6), Bashing Focus (6), Arcanist (75), Tenacity (75), Shade (25), Tumbling (26), and Shadow Ward (26).
Rotations[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif[/url]
Mag Sorc: (In your gameplay settings turn on quick cast ground abilities) Buff up with Boundless and Surge, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, drop Rage if it's active (only drop it on significant bosses or in situations with lots of enemies where you know you'll have the ult filled up by the next boss), Reach, Unstable, quickly weapon swap, Liquid Flood, two heavy attacks, activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, and repeat. If you have an excessive amount of ult and you're dealing with trash mobs activate overload before performing the rotation, but don't heavy attack for too long. If you have enough ult for Rage while you're fighting a serious boss and you're in the middle of the rotation just focus on activating the ultimate, afterwards either continue the rotation or start from scratch. During the execute phase (around 20% health) replace the second heavy attack with about 4 Mages' Wrath, but if boss is melting quickly just keep spamming Wrath (hold heavy attack while spamming Wrath). When using Twilight Tormentor only use the active ability before a fight and at times where you aren't actively engaging the boss.
When frost staff tanking a single boss buff up with Boundless and Surge, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, heavy attack with the ice staff, drop Rage if it's active, Reach/Restraining (at times can be replaced with an additional lightning staff heavy for sustain), Unstable, quickly weapon swap, Lightning Flood, one heavy attack (two if Reach isn't used), activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, one heavy attack, and repeat. If frost staff tanking multiple bosses buff up with Boundless and Surge, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, heavy attack with the ice staff each enemy, drop Rage if it's active, Unstable, quickly weapon swap, Lightning Flood, heavy attack priority boss in order to proc IA (pink smoke), activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, heavy attack all the bosses, and repeat. Can also slot in Inner Rage and forego heavy attacking with the ice staff. If using inner rage after getting aggro perform the DPS oriented rotation and retake aggro after 1 rotation. Most challenging bosses to keep aggroed will be the Pact in the Blessed Crucible and the knights in the White-Gold Tower, since you need to keep 3 enemies taunted, but they can also be locked down with Restraining. During the execute phase on a single target (around 20% health) replace the second heavy attack with a partial heavy attack in order to proc IA and around 4 Mages' Wrath, but if boss is melting quickly just keep spamming Wrath (hold block while spamming Wrath).
When healing in PvE just keep all support skills and Unstable up. Heavy attack primarily with a restoration staff whenever you can. Be reactive with your heals (when someone is scratched use ward ally and top them off with some Prayers). When taking a lot of continuous damage make sure to have all buffs/debuffs up while keeping Energy Orb active in the group. At the boss use the horn ult, but only when the group has decent survivability and damage. If too many players lack survivability then use the barrier ult to make life easier (longer fight, but less risk of death). Can use barrier when dealing with trash mobs (gives back ult).
In PvP you'll rarely be in a scenario where you can perform a PvE esque rotation with AOE unless you're performing a single target burst. For the most part just stun peeps whenever possible, apply dots, and heavy attack them a few times. Rinse and repeat till they die and use ults as needed, but make sure to keep your health and shields up whenever you take significant damage (might have to keep one's distance if a dk is using a skill like draw essence). When in a high pressure situation stay on the lightning staff bar and keep hardened ward up while stunning and heavy attacking hostiles make sure to keep primary buffs up, heal up, purge, and shield stack as needed. When dealing with a large amount of enemy players alongside your faction keep your distance from friendlies (avoid bombs). If you get debuffs on you be careful not to overuse efficient purge, which is still quite costly. If not grouped up do not bother using purge on a debuffed friendly, since it will not affect them at all.
In PvE and PvP make sure to utilize tab target to keep track of priority enemies. Use streak in PvE for mag based movement that also allows you to stun a group of enemies. Use elusive mist for mag based movement, snare removal, and damage mitigation in PvP (can also be used in stealth, but will pop you out of a hidden state for a brief moment).
In PvP when solo taking a resource ride your mount towards the tower, aggro the two guards at the front of the entrance, then head on inside the tower, buff up, purge, head up the stairs, kill everyone that follows especially the mage guard, kill everyone on the flag, and flip.
Favorite Foods and Potionshttps://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif
Gold Food for PvE:
(DPS) Corrupting Bloody Mara (increases Max Magicka by 4620, Max Health by 5051, and Health Recovery by 505 for 2 hours). If a vampire use font of loss furnishing to decrease vampirism to stage 1 to benefit from health recovery.
Gold Food for PvP and PvE:
(PvP healer/PvE serious tank) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours).
Trash Potions when feeling cheap:
Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
Crafted Potions:
Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). -
DorianDragonRaze✭✭✭Wow, I did not know the veteran arenas are supposed to be enjoying.I used to be an adventurer like you, then I got the ESO on my hard drive...PC NA
Magicka Sorcerer Lord Ylwendyl (AD) -- CP 880+
Stamina Nightblade Do-Hus-Dar (EP) (a cat-werewolf) -- Below level 50
Magicka Dragonknight Nephesys Tharen (DC) -- Below level 50
Magicka Templar Roderick Yeomant -- Below level 50
Uncertain Warden Boozes-in-Taverns (AD) -- Below level 50
Magicka Necromancer Necrohealeeyeah -- coming to level 50 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭Although rng mechanics can be annoying. I still feel that clearing vMA makes people better players. I would love to see more solo arenas added into the game or perhaps an arena that adjusts to the number of peeps in an arena (1-4). *crosses fingers for some Battlespire action*
Absolutely. I played on and off for 5 years before clearing VMA the first time a few weeks ago. I was fairly stubborn and insisted on clearing on one of the harder builds, stamblade, because that's literally all I play, instead of making a more vma friendly build. But since clearing it and figuring out things to make my runs faster and more efficient, my play outside of vma has gotten FAR better -- both in soloing group content and playing harder content with groups.
The two most important things vMA has helped me improve are:
1. Pressing DPS with your head on a swivel instead of staring at the boss. This technique is critical in so many stages -- Ice (watching for archers and the troll), Stage 6 (watching for hoarver and the webspinner), and 9 of course (archers, summoners, gold ghosts).
2. Pressing melee DPS while avoiding boss damage. I'm playing with around 15k hp and can be one-shotted by just about every boss. Learning to orbit the boss while staying in melee range and still keeping up my rotation has been critical. Also, recognizing when I'm falling behind and need to roll-dodge through the boss to start the orbit with a bit more lead is important. -
Seminolegirl1992✭✭✭vDSA is not enjoyable. It's too long and tedious. vMA is sorta fun. But still grindy. The most fun is definitely vBRP.PCNA
CP 1100+ PVE, RP, PVP, Housing (feel free to visit my Gardner, Grand Psijic, Alinor, or Hundings)
Penelope Sorciere Mecoud | Magsorc
N'zuri | Stamblade
Sabaki Taiyo | GMC/Temp Healer
Levexa | MagDk
Tannerith the Dragon | Dk Tank
Nymeria Sunspear | StamDk
Alassea Rilynn'Urdrenn | Magsorc
Kiera Targaryen | Magblade
Taiga Okami | Magden
Riavan Nightwood | Stamcro
Nym Baenre | Magcro
Rynne Voribri | MagDk
Eilistraee | Magplar
Mielikki | Stamden
Flawless Conqueror MagSorc, Tick Tock Tormentor, vSS Fire HM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vMoL, vKA, vDSA, vBRP, Crag HMs -
codierussell✭✭✭I think all are somewhat enjoyable depending what you are going for.
VDSA is the least fun for me since it has been around for a long time and it takes forever to clear. In the groups I do it with we go pretty fast as we are always around the 40k score mark, but it feels like most of it is listening to dialog and not actually playing.
VMA is still one of the best additions I think they have added to the game. Although it has been around for years people still run it to push scores and get gear. The only thing I don't like is that the content is rather easy compared to when it released, it could do with some much needed upgrades to make it more difficult or change it permanently to what the event was dropping to make it more interesting and worth it to do.
VBRP is by far my favourite for two reasons. First, it is difficult regardless of how many times you run it, and second, there are still achievements I need from it (The Unchained). It is a little buggy I must say but other that not being able to grab a sigil it is not different than the other two. The only reason why I think people hate on vbrp is because most people cannot complete it. -
thadjarvis✭✭✭MA:
- Not perfect but great way to "learn to play" on own time without the stress of wiping group
- Weapon rewards are nice even if you already have all of them for alts and enchant options
- Great way to test out my ability with an alt before taking into vDLC content (I parse too but prefer vMA as it's more fun)
- It's not too long and can be sped up which is nice for solo content. 35-60min for most once cleared several times.
- Great continued practice on not dying driving defensive needs down over time in other content
- A lot of wasted time. I feel as though you sit around waiting for stage, round, and spawns to start for far too long. And if your group can clear it, the adds rounds are a complete formality.
- The runs often take an hour with about 10minutes of content.
- The difficulty gap (DPS/tactics) between the final boss and the rest is pretty massive (the other arena's not at all).
- Can't be soloed as far as I know, which limits it.
- Will say that the voice acting and some of the boss mechanics are good after all the fluff.
BRP:
Maybe round 1 you can a bit, but the rest you can't really slack around. You have to pay attention. I can see that many would not like that, but for a small group of (in-game) friends that enjoy progressing together it is the ideal type of content. Group comp, builds, tactics tailored to group, etc. all come into play or at least there is value to incorporate thought. Eg I've seen very high score runs of standard 1 healer/2DD or 3 DPS as well as unique playstyles of 2 healers(+tank+dd) and 2 tanks+2dds!
It is not perfect at all, but I think BRP is one of the best playgrounds for build and team. I run it regardless of rewards.
I have regularly put up for DSA/BRP runs in discord and get bites everytime. BRP is best for groups that are capable to progress vDLC/hms. DSA has much lower capability requirements, but due to the common final boss strat (the only I know), you need a certain level of group DPS. -
Ozby✭✭✭✭✭Can't stand them tbhPC NA
Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro). -
Cage_Lizardman✭✭✭✭✭I like pugging vDLC's, but never cared much for the arenas. And not just because you can't use the dungeon finder for them.
vMA I never liked probably because it was such a massive pain to get through the first time.
vDSA I've done many times, with varying groups but mostly for the gear, or to show newbies how to do it. It's too damn long, and if you have a group that can get past the sacrifice stage, everything before it is just trivial and time-consuming.
vBRP is just... really hard, completely unpuggable and almost demands specific setups. I've tried to dd it a few times and failed, and tanked it once thanks to the rest of the group being experienced. I imagine it might be fun to work on though. -
Demalb16_ESO✭✭I recently cleared vMA a couple of time and I have to say that I think that vMA is ridiculous for a couple of motifs:
1) you can do an arena with mechanics and such for people who enjoy clear them but you cannot put a needed item as reward for compleating it moreover if you put them only at the end of the last stage. You can put a Title as a reward such as "master of the X arena ecc" or you can give a costume. givingi item is equal to forcing people do it and not a couple times dozens of times to drop the right set..... this is not playing this is torture!
2) I saw that a lot of people do make the distintion between veteran player and novice player. I cleared tha arena two times wasting a lot of hours , if being a veteran player means that I have to do the vMA so many times that I colud do it with my eyes closed than I'm happy be a "novice".
3) The vMA should be a challange and as a challeng it should be difficult, but a player should not be forced to do it or he should not fell as if he was forced to do it to get items that they need .
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