PVE healing still needs nerfs

Banana · March 2020

As a solo player. No

El_Borracho · March 2020

I don't understand OP's position. As far as I know, healers still get into dungeons easier than DPS when using the dungeon finder. Which seems to indicate healers are still needed for a lot of the dungeons. Just because someone can run vet WGT with 3 DDs doesn't mean that we should nerf heals to the point you need one for vet COA.

Besides, there's more to healers than healing. Debuffs and group buffs are typically more important anyway.

Koensol · March 2020

I don't think this is a huge issue right now, but I have to say as a mainly pvp player I was quite surprised to see my radiating regen heal someone for a 12k tick in vAS. 12k... thats a freaking burst heal from a hot

dazee · March 2020

idk wrote: »

What is the most challenging content OP is healing?

Also, it is not the strength of heals it is our ability to mitigate and avoid damage. Unlike some of the other major MMORPGs where we can only move out of stupid and use a defensive cooldown that has a long cooldown itself

Inaccurate, but I get what you're trying to say. Actually in the other major MMORPG I play endgame content feels far more challenging and engaging than anything ESO offers, and mitigation is mostly constant throughout a fight as we have way more than one tool for that even though most of them are on longish cooldowns.

We have to time it all exact and space it out so we have enough when the next big damage comes up, healers have to mitigate aoe damage and heal, as well as DPS being expected FROM EVERYBODY.

DPS being everyones job is so much better than the crap which is tanking in ESO. it's why ESO is the only game so far I wont tank in. I hit less than a wet noodle as an endgame tank in ESO, while on FFXIV I do half the damage of a good dps. Even as healer I can do around that much damage- and I'm expected to becuase damage is, in all MMOs, the most basic mechanic, which logically means everyone should be contributing as much as possible.

Even in ESO, if you're a healer, and theres nothing you need to be doing to heal or buff people for a second or 5, you should be dpsing in that time. more damage = better so long as no one dies to allow that damage.

I'll also add that as healer in ESO depending on class and build you have access to some insane buffs. buffs which can be applied to the dps to make them do far more damage than they would without a healer. Olorime+Jourvulds Guidance for instance with combat prayer, war horn, and elemental drain, in a group with 2 magicka dps.

Nerouyn · March 2020

Icaruzs wrote: »

We need a heal nerf, because is not even fun to heal anymore, and in some content we are not even required to be there.

It's never been fun in this game because group content was designed around damage avoidance and healing has always been about just laying down the aoe heal over time, and occasionally throwing out a single target when someone is hit by one of the inevitable boss big hits.

You're much less meant to heal than to buff and do damage.

*yawn*

But I think broadly speaking things are moving slowly in the right direction and eg. the design of the necromancer heals is brilliant.

The big difficulty they have for fixing what was originally so horribly broken is that most healer types like us just don't even bother with group content or pissed off to play other games. An instant fix would leave everyone suddenly needing proper healers but not enough available.

Kesstryl · March 2020

If they nerf healing AGAIN, I'm done. DO NOT NERF HEALING! It is my main role and the only one I am actually good at for endgame. I was pissed when it was nerfed last year. Seriously, dude, ask for buffs, not nerfs. I'm so sick of Elitists thinking everyone is like them and so only their point of view is valid. Many of us have latency, and with the mess of skills not firing off, you want to hose the rest of us even more? Many of us do struggle with content. The groups I run with can only get through Craglorn vet trials, and HM trials are not going to happen anytime soon. Stop destroying the game for the rest of us. Nerfs do not make the game more fun, period!

Deathlord92 · March 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

NO
No more nerfs.
You're going to destroy the game for solo players.

This

Arbit · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What is the most challenging content OP is healing?

Also, it is not the strength of heals it is our ability to mitigate and avoid damage. Unlike some of the other major MMORPGs where we can only move out of stupid and use a defensive cooldown that has a long cooldown itself

Inaccurate, but I get what you're trying to say. Actually in the other major MMORPG I play endgame content feels far more challenging and engaging than anything ESO offers, and mitigation is mostly constant throughout a fight as we have way more than one tool for that even though most of them are on longish cooldowns.

We have to time it all exact and space it out so we have enough when the next big damage comes up, healers have to mitigate aoe damage and heal, as well as DPS being expected FROM EVERYBODY.

DPS being everyones job is so much better than the crap which is tanking in ESO. it's why ESO is the only game so far I wont tank in. I hit less than a wet noodle as an endgame tank in ESO, while on FFXIV I do half the damage of a good dps. Even as healer I can do around that much damage- and I'm expected to becuase damage is, in all MMOs, the most basic mechanic, which logically means everyone should be contributing as much as possible.

Even in ESO, if you're a healer, and theres nothing you need to be doing to heal or buff people for a second or 5, you should be dpsing in that time. more damage = better so long as no one dies to allow that damage.

I'll also add that as healer in ESO depending on class and build you have access to some insane buffs. buffs which can be applied to the dps to make them do far more damage than they would without a healer. Olorime+Jourvulds Guidance for instance with combat prayer, war horn, and elemental drain, in a group with 2 magicka dps.

interesting opinion, but healers and tanks have their own roles in this game which is still very important. They don't need to do dps to still be vital roles. If that's not your cup of tea then there's always your final fantasy you have to fall back on

MEBengalsFan2001 · March 2020

Icaruzs wrote: »

I'm a main healer and i still feel that even with the nerfs on healing a few patchs ago, healing is still too easy.

We just apply our grand healing, radiant rejuvenation and throw a healing orb. And if you get in trouble and your dds or tank are not in the area of these skills you can use a burst heal of your class.

What i'm trying to say is there's no healer feeling, like "lets heal the injured" or i need to maximize my Healing per second like DD's, because those 3 skills (grand,radiant and energy orb) just provide a burst of healing that you dont have to worry about the health of your group, and only worry about keeping buffs and debuffs up. (combat prayer, minor vun and etc)

Healing still overpowered (and i'm a main healer ) right know, and the proof is that you can run a vet dlc dungeon HM with 3 dd's, just sloting a healing skill, like echoing vigor, grand healing, radiant regenaration in each dps and you will be more than fine (and have a higher dps overall)

We need a heal nerf, because is not even fun to heal anymore, and in some content we are not even required to be there.

@edit forgot to metion that if you are going to the 3 DD's and one tank set up, your tank can use energy orb for your's DD which is another burst heal and also recover their resources.

A quick way to resolve this is placing a reduction to healing out for non-healer roles. Non healer roles would have their healing skills reduced by 75% in dungeons.

Support roles damage would be reduced by 25%.

DD and healer would also have increase damage in by 10%.

This way all 3 roles get two penalties for the role played. It would encourage the trinity more in dungeons.

LiquidPony · March 2020

Healing is "easy" because actually healing is just a small part of the healer's job.

Buffing, debuffing, doing mechanics, and doing damage are the rest of it.

If the actual act of healing was significantly more difficult, healers wouldn't be able to focus effort on the other parts of their job.

Healing is easy, if your bar is set at the lowest possible level of "I can keep people alive". Being a good healer is difficult.

Milli_Rabbit · March 2020

I think being a full-time healer is really useful and interesting with either vet DLC content or when playing with not-so-great players, but not super dumb players. I've had DDs that just don't understand I can't save you from red if you just stand in it without concern.

My suggestion for you is to figure out what is needed in your particular group. In PUGs for vet dungeons, I generally do a 60-40 split combat medic (mostly healer, but DD when not needed). In trials, I run more healer (80 or even 90% healer) as the tank can make mistakes (or plain not be good) and many DDs are bad at positioning meaning I need to constantly adjust to buff them or heal. Hint: if you're a DD, you should be standing in front of me, not hiding behind me if you want to be healed. I will ALWAYS prioritize players in front of me since I can ALWAYS see them.

idk · March 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

But my main point is that it's not about end-game. It's about doing difficult content for the particular player. That could be normal VoM.

Simply put, if there's little risk of dying then it makes perfect sense that a non-damage dealer isn't all that useful.

Your comparison makes no sense. Content that is less challenging always has less risk of dying. Normal VoM has very little challenge and it should remainso.

The tiers of the challenge are there for a reason. Normal base game dungeons should be easy when we are at end game. They are intended for players to be able to clear while leveling up which includes new players learning the game.

So this entire comment I quoted seems to be made void of understanding that tiered difficulty Zos has created by design.

idk · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What is the most challenging content OP is healing?

Also, it is not the strength of heals it is our ability to mitigate and avoid damage. Unlike some of the other major MMORPGs where we can only move out of stupid and use a defensive cooldown that has a long cooldown itself

Inaccurate, but I get what you're trying to say. Actually in the other major MMORPG I play endgame content feels far more challenging and engaging than anything ESO offers, and mitigation is mostly constant throughout a fight as we have way more than one tool for that even though most of them are on longish cooldowns.
We have to time it all exact and space it out so we have enough when the next big damage comes up, healers have to mitigate aoe damage and heal, as well as DPS being expected FROM EVERYBODY.

DPS being everyones job is so much better than the crap which is tanking in ESO. it's why ESO is the only game so far I wont tank in. I hit less than a wet noodle as an endgame tank in ESO, while on FFXIV I do half the damage of a good dps. Even as healer I can do around that much damage- and I'm expected to becuase damage is, in all MMOs, the most basic mechanic, which logically means everyone should be contributing as much as possible.

Even in ESO, if you're a healer, and theres nothing you need to be doing to heal or buff people for a second or 5, you should be dpsing in that time. more damage = better so long as no one dies to allow that damage.

I'll also add that as healer in ESO depending on class and build you have access to some insane buffs. buffs which can be applied to the dps to make them do far more damage than they would without a healer. Olorime+Jourvulds Guidance for instance with combat prayer, war horn, and elemental drain, in a group with 2 magicka dps.

@dazee

Have you cleared vMA yet? It seems you were struggling with the ice arena in vMA just a couple weeks ago because you were not steady with your targeting. As such I find it difficult you are able to accurate comparisons in the context of my post you quoted. What vet HM trials have you cleared outside of Craglorn trials?

Heck, you even comment that other games have long cooldowns on their defenses. That being the case it is not possible for those games to require the active damage avoidance and mitigation ESO permits and requires in vet HM trials, especially the newer trials.

JanTanhide · March 2020

No more nerfs. Good gosh, what is wrong with you Nerfers?

If you want it to be "more challenging" for you then take off all but one Heal and go for it.

dazee · March 2020

interesting opinion, but healers and tanks have their own roles in this game which is still very important. They don't need to do dps to still be vital roles. If that's not your cup of tea then there's always your final fantasy you have to fall back on

It's less of an opinion and more of the direct logical result of the way MMOs are designed. if you are a healer and at the moment no one needs heals and your buffs dont need refreshing, if you're not doing damage in that moment, you're doing nothing, and for that time, being useless.

If you find healing boring, you're probably not dpsing at all, and thus doing it wrong.

dazee · March 2020

@dazee

Have you cleared vMA yet? It seems you were struggling with the ice arena in vMA just a couple weeks ago because you were not steady with your targeting. As such I find it difficult you are able to accurate comparisons in the context of my post you quoted. What vet HM trials have you cleared outside of Craglorn trials?

Heck, you even comment that other games have long cooldowns on their defenses. That being the case it is not possible for those games to require the active damage avoidance and mitigation ESO permits and requires in vet HM trials, especially the newer trials.

VMA is not group content, which is what I was referring to, and even in VMA Mechanics are more simplistic with less happening at once than most endgame content in FFXIV.

the reason I have difficulty with ESO is balance flaws inherent to the games build system which ZOS has yet to fix.
FFXIV does not have that issue as it has locked classes, which I agree can be a disadvantage in a way since it limits how players play the game, but in ESO if we dont even have real choice in how to make an effective build, whats the point to begin with?

idk · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

@dazee

Have you cleared vMA yet? It seems you were struggling with the ice arena in vMA just a couple weeks ago because you were not steady with your targeting. As such I find it difficult you are able to accurate comparisons in the context of my post you quoted. What vet HM trials have you cleared outside of Craglorn trials?

Heck, you even comment that other games have long cooldowns on their defenses. That being the case it is not possible for those games to require the active damage avoidance and mitigation ESO permits and requires in vet HM trials, especially the newer trials.

VMA is not group content, which is what I was referring to, and even in VMA Mechanics are more simplistic with less happening at once than most endgame content in FFXIV.
the reason I have difficulty with ESO is balance flaws inherent to the games build system which ZOS has yet to fix.
FFXIV does not have that issue as it has locked classes, which I agree can be a disadvantage in a way since it limits how players play the game, but in ESO if we dont even have real choice in how to make an effective build, whats the point to begin with?

You avoided the question I asked concerning what HM trials have you cleared in ESO outside of Craglorn trials.

Unless we are talking about the more difficult content in ESO and the other games you refer to (usually the more recent large group raid content on most difficult mode) then it is you that was incorrect in your first reply to me.

There is a major difference between even normal and vet in our newer trials let alone HM. Even the oldest non-Craglorn trial someone can still die on HM (probably even vet) if they are not quick to react with defensive maneuvers that can come at a faster pace than the long CDs that games like many other games provide. It is a little more than the simplistic move out of stupid and an occasional defensive cooldown that FF14 and others require.

thadjarvis · March 2020

idk wrote: »

Your comparison makes no sense.

I probably didn't explain it well. Suppose a group of friends can do vCoA1 easy, a couple deaths on vCoA2, and recently did vICP hm with a couple wipes and various deaths throughout.

That particular group:

no need for a healer in vCoA1
can be just fine getting through vCoA2 without one but it would not hurt to take one
For ICP runs it's probably not essential to clear but a healer would make it easier for that group
if they go into vBRF for the first time a healer would be really useful

Replace CoA 1, CoA 2, ICP, BRF with

nFG1, nVoM, vBlackheart, and vet 2 dungeons OR
vSCP, vMHK, vUG HM, and vBRP

My point is (1) the usefulness of a healer is a function of a particular group's ability in particular content and
(2) healers often feel useless because they and a massive part of the player base avoid any content in which is hard to clear for them

thadjarvis · March 2020

Ie healer usefulness directly relates with players desire to climb the content difficulty (for them not objectively hard).

If most players stop at any point, the level at which they stop will become easy except for a players that don't learn ESO well. When it's easy there's no point to healers and even tanks sometimes too.

Eg did I need a healer to get through a world boss the first month of the game. Hell yes, but now I have to go to something more challenging to warrant the utilization of a healer.

Yes at some super high difficulties for speed sometimes healers are dropped but that's outside of general playerbase healing which I think is the focus of the thread.

Arbit · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

interesting opinion, but healers and tanks have their own roles in this game which is still very important. They don't need to do dps to still be vital roles. If that's not your cup of tea then there's always your final fantasy you have to fall back on

It's less of an opinion and more of the direct logical result of the way MMOs are designed. if you are a healer and at the moment no one needs heals and your buffs dont need refreshing, if you're not doing damage in that moment, you're doing nothing, and for that time, being useless.

If you find healing boring, you're probably not dpsing at all, and thus doing it wrong.

You seem to think very highly of your OPINION. For someone who uses off meta builds and doesn’t use a bow backbar I’m shocked you even made it to the ice stage in vMA tbh. You cannot complete the right of passage content to start endgame yet you complain the end game is not anything in comparison to final fantasy. My opinion is that you should go play final fantasy rather than play a game you don’t enjoy and complain about constantly.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · March 2020

As a hybrid/lone wolf, I think healing is fine? I usually start with DPS and integrate more heals as needed. I'm rarely needed as a full time healer in a dungeon (unless I'm with newbies), but I honestly prefer it that way.

If I want to feel pressured as a healer, I switch to PVP (the only time demand runs my resources dry).

There are still plenty of times in a dungeon where you get called on, and quite suddenly. There is no skill/thrill in spamming heals to keep everyone at 100% all the time. Saving players from near death is a healers true calling, imo. Dish out some dmg until the need arises.

idk · March 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Your comparison makes no sense.

I probably didn't explain it well. Suppose a group of friends can do vCoA1 easy, a couple deaths on vCoA2, and recently did vICP hm with a couple wipes and various deaths throughout.

That particular group:
no need for a healer in vCoA1

can be just fine getting through vCoA2 without one but it would not hurt to take one

For ICP runs it's probably not essential to clear but a healer would make it easier for that group

if they go into vBRF for the first time a healer would be really useful

Replace CoA 1, CoA 2, ICP, BRF with

nFG1, nVoM, vBlackheart, and vet 2 dungeons OR
vSCP, vMHK, vUG HM, and vBRP

My point is (1) the usefulness of a healer is a function of a particular group's ability in particular content and
(2) healers often feel useless because they and a massive part of the player base avoid any content in which is hard to clear for them

You edited out a lot of what you quoted and are still not explaining yourself well.

In what you edited out I stated that the less challenging the content the less someone will die. Your focus was on little risk of dying in instances like VoM.

The same applies here. Ofc, in that the more skilled the players and the more familiar they are with the instance the lower their chance of dying and the less they need heals. Heck, I have cleared a number of vet DLC dungeons without a healer when those dungeons were fairly new.

Take that a step further, vSS, vCR, vAS, vHoF, vMoL, how many of those have you cleared without a healer. I am not even asking about HM. Exactly.

Funny how when you edit out most of a comment much is lost.

thadjarvis · March 2020

@idk probably was editing typos as you quoted it..oops

Point is we agree I think...? The problem is not healing in ESO but players not often willing to do content with a high risk of dying, wiping, or even a complete failure to clear. Without that risk a dedicated healer isn’t necessary.

My point on nVoM was that a player with 20 hours of ESO experience may want a healer in there to illustrate that's it independent of content objective difficulty, but rather it is a function of player ability and content difficulty. It’s not vMoL stuff in which healers are needed. it’s all content potentially depending on player skill.

idk · March 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

probably was editing typos as you quoted it..oops

Point is we agree I think...? The problem is not healing in ESO but players not often willing to do content with a high risk of dying, wiping, or even a complete failure to clear. Without that risk a dedicated healer isn’t necessary.

My point on nVoM was that a player with 20 hours of ESO experience may want a healer in there to illustrate that's it independent of content objective difficulty, but rather it is a function of player ability and content difficulty. It’s not vMoL stuff in which healers are needed. it’s all content potentially depending on player skill.

That is common. In the top MMORPGs it is a very small percentage that clears the most challenging content. That is ok as we all have different interests. Many have no interest in putting in the time to refine their playstyle to clear the latest vet content as they would rather just ESO and chill with their friends.

Even when I started raiding the more challenging content I still ran with a much more casual guild. They enjoyed the game just as much but in a different manner. It is why ESO, and most major MMORPGs, have tiered difficulty with content. It is why we have 3 difficulties with trials.

In the end, it only matters that we enjoy the game. That mostly comes from running with the in-game friends we meet.

dazee · March 2020

My opinion is that you should go play final fantasy rather than play a game you don’t enjoy and complain about constantly.

Having played quite a few online MMOs, I have a good idea of what works well and what does not. I play both FFXIV and ESO, Endgame in FFXIV is superior for a number of reasons, not the least of which is balance is a world and a half superior.

ESO suffers from meta sickness, where the meta is way too good. FFXIV -has- meta. but most people dont care one bit about it since its not way OP compared to anything else.

People who don't perform well in ESO, dont do so becuase they cant. they dont perform well becuase they dont want to do what is required to perform well, which would ruin the fun for them.

ESO has a free build system yet its pointless since you dont actually have many real choices.

akdave0 · March 2020

[Snip]
No, no need for healz to be nerfed at all. Play more vet/vet trials and come back and let's see if you have the same outlook. Start with VMol and VSS.

[Edited for baiting]

Arbit · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

My opinion is that you should go play final fantasy rather than play a game you don’t enjoy and complain about constantly.

Having played quite a few online MMOs, I have a good idea of what works well and what does not. I play both FFXIV and ESO, Endgame in FFXIV is superior for a number of reasons, not the least of which is balance is a world and a half superior.

ESO suffers from meta sickness, where the meta is way too good. FFXIV -has- meta. but most people dont care one bit about it since its not way OP compared to anything else.

People who don't perform well in ESO, dont do so becuase they cant. they dont perform well becuase they dont want to do what is required to perform well, which would ruin the fun for them.

ESO has a free build system yet its pointless since you dont actually have many real choices.

Im sorry but youre not at end game, and I too have played quite a few MMO's doesnt mean my opinion or yours has all that much meaning beyond simply what you think. I wouldn't consider someone who hasn't beaten vMA educated in what is end game in eso.

idk · March 2020

dazee wrote: »

My opinion is that you should go play final fantasy rather than play a game you don’t enjoy and complain about constantly.

Having played quite a few online MMOs, I have a good idea of what works well and what does not. I play both FFXIV and ESO, Endgame in FFXIV is superior for a number of reasons, not the least of which is balance is a world and a half superior.

ESO suffers from meta sickness, where the meta is way too good. FFXIV -has- meta. but most people dont care one bit about it since its not way OP compared to anything else.

People who don't perform well in ESO, dont do so becuase they cant. they dont perform well becuase they dont want to do what is required to perform well, which would ruin the fun for them.

ESO has a free build system yet its pointless since you dont actually have many real choices.

All of us that have played multiple MMORPGs have an opinion for what works well and what does not. Ironically many of us disagree on those points which is why it is merely an opinion.

Besides, ESO does not suffer from meta sickness any more than any other game does. Heck, I have raided with top players in ESO where several of us were posting similar DPS yet we all had different builds. We all worked on finding what worked for us. Players only see builds that are posted and call that meta but they do not see there can be variances that do extremely well.

I find that much better than the extremely rigid and restrictive systems of other games. Much better than the dev saying you have access to these skills and only these skills.

Much of this is evident at end game.

thadjarvis · March 2020

@idk I think you are missing my point. I can try once more or I can't explain it over text. If any player of any ability plays the same content difficulty level over and over, then it will at some point become very easy such that initially a healer would have helped but after it's easy a healer is no longer essential (trials aside).

Eg for me on the first day a mudcrab would kick my butt and a healer would have been nice.

My conjection is healers are not often essential because many players just stop at some difficulty level. They do normal base game and maybe vet base game which are challenging at first, but stop there even though it's becomes easy and they have the capability to try the next level (in which they would find a healer useful). So, some healers feel they are not useful bc not many players login to die trying something new; many want to just casually farm something...no healer required.

idk · March 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

I think you are missing my point. I can try once more or I can't explain it over text. If any player of any ability plays the same content difficulty level over and over, then it will at some point become very easy such that initially a healer would have helped but after it's easy a healer is no longer essential (trials aside).

Eg for me on the first day a mudcrab would kick my butt and a healer would have been nice.

My conjection is healers are not often essential because many players just stop at some difficulty level. They do normal base game and maybe vet base game which are challenging at first, but stop there even though it's becomes easy and they have the capability to try the next level (in which they would find a healer useful). So, some healers feel they are not useful bc not many players login to die trying something new; many want to just casually farm something...no healer required.

LMAO.
Read post #55
I said as much there. You were more interested in schooling someone you did not bother reading what you were replying to and merely schooled yourself.

Pls do not tag me with such nonsense. Especially if you are merely repeating what I already said.