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Necromancer needs a tanking/aggroing undead summon
Ryskim
✭✭✭
Let's face it, with almost no snares or roots for enemies we can't be tanking all the time. We need to have at least 1 tanking pet to do the thing while we nuke away.
Life is very easy for Sorcerers with Encase very early in the game and the permanent Unstable Clannfear, so we Necromancers should be the best of the best at summoning undead and I really think Stalking Blastbones should be a 16-20 seconds tanking pet instead of the buggy pseudo-missile skill that it is now.
Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies. That is the pure essence of a necromancer: summon the dead to to his bidding — yes, also tanking — while he nukes from the distance.
Lastly, why not give a resummon ability to the Skeletal Mage (just like it happens with the Unstable Clannfear)?
Edited by Ryskim on January 20, 2020 8:56PM Life is very easy for Sorcerers with Encase very early in the game and the permanent Unstable Clannfear, so we Necromancers should be the best of the best at summoning undead and I really think Stalking Blastbones should be a 16-20 seconds tanking pet instead of the buggy pseudo-missile skill that it is now.
Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies. That is the pure essence of a necromancer: summon the dead to to his bidding — yes, also tanking — while he nukes from the distance.
Lastly, why not give a resummon ability to the Skeletal Mage (just like it happens with the Unstable Clannfear)?
5
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Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Let's face it, with almost no snares or roots for enemies we can't be tanking all the time. We need to have at least 1 tanking pet to do the thing while we nuke away.
Life is very easy for Sorcerers with Encase very early in the game and the permanent Unstable Clannfear, so we Necromancers should be the best of the best at summoning undead and I really think Stalking Blastbones should be a 16-20 seconds tanking pet instead of the buggy pseudo-missile skill that it is now.
Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies. That is the pure essence of a necromancer: summon the dead to to his bidding — yes, also tanking — while he nukes from the distance.
Lastly, why not give a resummon ability to the Skeletal Mage (just like it happens with the Unstable Clannfear)?
YESSSS
Ive been asking for this for a long time.
A melee skeletal warrior or skeleton wearing heavy armor with a big battle axe sounds so much fun. I'd much prefer this over the grave-grasp skill (arguably the most useless skill necro has).
PLUS. I feel like it'd fit the theme of every skill line in the Necromancer class having a summon.
Gravelord: Mage
Bone Tyrant: ????
Living death: Spirit Mender
Literally all that is missing is a tank minion. I don't understand how they missed this very simple design...Edited by Noxavian on January 20, 2020 9:25PM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's interesting to hear from both sides about how either
- all classes should be able to perform all roles
- Not all classes should be able to perform all roles
not criticizing - just think it's interesting to see these conflicting ideas unfold on the forums3 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's interesting to hear from both sides about how either
- all classes should be able to perform all roles
- Not all classes should be able to perform all roles
not criticizing - just think it's interesting to see these conflicting ideas unfold on the forums
IMO all classes should be able to perform all roles in their own, unique way.
The example here would be giving Necro a tanking minion to specifically help with tanking and taunting.2 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Let's face it, with almost no snares or roots for enemies we can't be tanking all the time. We need to have at least 1 tanking pet to do the thing while we nuke away.
Life is very easy for Sorcerers with Encase very early in the game and the permanent Unstable Clannfear, so we Necromancers should be the best of the best at summoning undead and I really think Stalking Blastbones should be a 16-20 seconds tanking pet instead of the buggy pseudo-missile skill that it is now.
Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies. That is the pure essence of a necromancer: summon the dead to to his bidding — yes, also tanking — while he nukes from the distance.
Lastly, why not give a resummon ability to the Skeletal Mage (just like it happens with the Unstable Clannfear)?
Templar and Nightblade rely on fear or time stop. I run Thurvokun on Necro,NB, and Templar sometimes to maim everything, so I can focus on what I can manage.0 -
Ryskim✭✭✭Sorry for the late reply to you guys, I have been away for some time.
I hope the dev team come to their senses and give us a proper necromancer tanking pet, this is very necessary especially for magicka builds based on the gravelord skilltree.
We don't need the dev team to invent a new way of being a necromancer. We want to play as the necromancers we usually see in-game.
A tanking pet is very necessary and this was so damn obvious. Magicka necromancers struggle a lot because as soon as the battle start, none of the available pets draw any aggro as they should. The permanent tanking pet should belong to the necromancer, NOT to the sorcerer or the Warden. It's simply hilarious.1 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Let's face it, with almost no snares or roots for enemies we can't be tanking all the time. We need to have at least 1 tanking pet to do the thing while we nuke away.
Except that wouldn’t be tanking. You want a pet tank so you can be a dps.
Tanking is so much more than just taunting things so the low healths can jab it with their sticks. It’s about controlling a space and choreographing the fight. It’s about debuffing your enemies and boosting your allies. It’s about pulling in enemies from range into a concentrated kill zone. It’s about generating and using synergies that increase group effectiveness.
Necros can already tank, they have an unusual snare and a chain mechanic and they can bring in a significant group buff in major vulnerability. They really don’t need another pet they can’t control that doesn’t tank well instead.10 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Youve got to be kidding. I could agree to buff mag necro a bit, but stam necro is INSANELY powerful atm, and is top dog all around.5 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭If you want to control adds as a solo magcro Totem will get the job done. If you keep it up you can continually kite mobs into it's radius and they'll get stunned. Yes there is a stun cooldown preventing perma stunning enemies and elite/bosses can't be stunned, but without those limitations there wouldn't be little point to having enemies or bosses.
Pets like bear or familiar do unreliably grab aggro from time to time, but they don't taunt per se. If a pet could actually taunt recall that they are also invincible meaning there would be little need for player tanks anywhere.1 -
SpaceElf✭✭✭
A tanking pet is very necessary and this was so damn obvious. Magicka necromancers struggle a lot because as soon as the battle start, none of the available pets draw any aggro as they should. The permanent tanking pet should belong to the necromancer, NOT to the sorcerer or the Warden. It's simply hilarious.
I agree that Nercomancers deserve a tank/perm pet- it makes sense as control of undead is the literal definition of what they do and are.
Taking away a pet from other classes isn't going to solve that problem, this isn't a zero sum situation.
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Dyvm✭Just thinking off the top of my head but a corps based Rez that actually brought a skeletal corps of the corps targeted at a magic cost of the HP it had when it died would be way cool.
In other words, if you had 40k Magicka you could bring a skeletal monster with 40k HP back to fight for you until it died (no regeneration or heal for it though). If you brought back a 2hander it would attack with 2hand abilities. A bow user would attack with bow abilities. Might highlight more corps targeting problems and the HP res might need to be adjusted (maybe 1 Magicka for every 2 hp). Just thinking out loud really.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's interesting to hear from both sides about how either
- all classes should be able to perform all roles
- Not all classes should be able to perform all roles
not criticizing - just think it's interesting to see these conflicting ideas unfold on the forums
Not at all.
All classes should and can perform all roles. However, some classes should be stronger in some roles than others. Zos has specifically stated this.
I am not sure I agree with OP. While OP is being very generic about what this tanking pet would be I assume they would say it should have a taunt. If that is the case it is a flat out no. The tank needs to control the fight and this idea is giving up some of that control to the tank.
The difference between a new tank and an experienced tank is being able to pull the mobs together. Before Silver Leash reliably brought a target to us most classes needed to actually think about how to grab the melee and bring them to the range to effectively group up targets. The necromancer has some good skills to work with that makes it an interesting tank. Necromancers are tanking vet trials so they seem to be solid in that role.1 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Should have melee to mix in with the healer and mage/archer.
Skeleton soldier: Mediocre Melee dps
Morph 1: Skeleton Knight (Tank support)
Morph 2: Skeleton Warrior (Dps)
And should be, some what permanent (passives upgrades should make it permanent) Needs fresh corpses to be raised, and to heal, make one more beefy but weak dps, the other beast in dps but brittle.
Edited by StormeReigns on March 2, 2020 5:19PM1 -
Carespanker✭✭✭✭The spirit mender 10% reduced damage morph is the tank pet though. (BTW its bugged rn and does a lot more than 10% but dont tell zos)4
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Carespanker wrote: »The spirit mender 10% reduced damage morph is the tank pet though. (BTW its bugged rn and does a lot more than 10% but dont tell zos)
Oddly enough, still wondering why the mender is taking the hits, and not dishing out st heals one morph and aoe heals for another morph. Seems funky. And not in a earth wind and fire, 21st day of September type of funk.1 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies.
Yes please.
Necros aren't completely unplayable without a tank pet but they'd be much better with one and also more popular. I felt especially lacking when with a bunch of players which didn't include any tanks, had my little scamp tank one of Summerset's griffon bosses.
Kept thinking - my necros really should be able to do that.
The fear component of totem functions adequately in place of a tank pet for most regular mobs but does nothing against bosses.
On the issue of permanence....
One possibility to distinguish them from sorc and warden summons would be a semi-permanent compromise.
Instead of necro summons having a timer and simply disappearing when it runs out, make their health decay a little bit every second. And make the only thing able to replenish them necromantic heals.
Players could then choose to just let them burn out and turn into corpses to use, or hit them with necro heals to maintain them.0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Note that I'm not asking for a permanent pet (even though I would love that to happen), but a pet that draws aggro/hate from enemies.
Yes please.
Necros aren't completely unplayable without a tank pet but they'd be much better with one and also more popular. I felt especially lacking when with a bunch of players which didn't include any tanks, had my little scamp tank one of Summerset's griffon bosses.
Kept thinking - my necros really should be able to do that.
The fear component of totem functions adequately in place of a tank pet for most regular mobs but does nothing against bosses.
On the issue of permanence....
One possibility to distinguish them from sorc and warden summons would be a semi-permanent compromise.
Instead of necro summons having a timer and simply disappearing when it runs out, make their health decay a little bit every second. And make the only thing able to replenish them necromantic heals.
Players could then choose to just let them burn out and turn into corpses to use, or hit them with necro heals to maintain them.
Yo by necro heals you mean that one channel ability that already exists for NPCs in game??? Come on man, taking abilities and mechanics from npcs would be too hard.... /s
But really though you're right. And they also need more summons in general. At least a zombie and/or melee skeleton summon1 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorry for the late reply to you guys, I have been away for some time.
I hope the dev team come to their senses and give us a proper necromancer tanking pet, this is very necessary especially for magicka builds based on the gravelord skilltree.
We don't need the dev team to invent a new way of being a necromancer. We want to play as the necromancers we usually see in-game.
A tanking pet is very necessary and this was so damn obvious. Magicka necromancers struggle a lot because as soon as the battle start, none of the available pets draw any aggro as they should. The permanent tanking pet should belong to the necromancer, NOT to the sorcerer or the Warden. It's simply hilarious.
I think the biggest thing people will miss from your statement is the "We want to play as the necromancers we usually see in game" statement.
Which is entirely true. The class reps agree.
The fact that necromancer NPCs play almost nothing like the class is kinda disgusting.
They're in the back summoning and buffing their minions as well as debuffing you. That is how a necro should be played.
Why did they try to re-invent their own wheel? Idk. It'd be like the guy who made tires decided the new model had to be unique so made them into a triangle.1 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yo by necro heals you mean that one channel ability that already exists for NPCs in game??? Come on man, taking abilities and mechanics from npcs would be too hard.... /s
No. Just these.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Living_Death
I suggest restricting it to necro class heals a) because that makes more sense and b) it would make it easier for necros to control this.
In the event that you actually don't want your pets healed you wouldn't have to worry about the mass of aoe and random healing from resto staves and other classes.But really though you're right. And they also need more summons in general. At least a zombie and/or melee skeleton summon
Definitely.
I like what they have. Enjoy them mechanically more than another class presently. But not having a melee / tank pets feels totally backwards.1 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yo by necro heals you mean that one channel ability that already exists for NPCs in game??? Come on man, taking abilities and mechanics from npcs would be too hard.... /s
No. Just these.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Living_Death
I suggest restricting it to necro class heals a) because that makes more sense and b) it would make it easier for necros to control this.
In the event that you actually don't want your pets healed you wouldn't have to worry about the mass of aoe and random healing from resto staves and other classes.But really though you're right. And they also need more summons in general. At least a zombie and/or melee skeleton summon
Definitely.
I like what they have. Enjoy them mechanically more than another class presently. But not having a melee / tank pets feels totally backwards.
Ye like, another NEAT thing is that if they ever do add in a melee summon then that one corpse raise morph for the rez ultimate should raise 3 melee summons of whatever type you choose that fight for you for x duration. That would be so cool.
I feel like a lot of peoples complaints would be solved if they just replaced Grave Grasp with a proper tank summon. The tanking tree is the only one without a summon, after all.1 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I want a zombie pet that can hold aggro. That is fun. That is necro. This...i dont know what this is.2 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »I want a zombie pet that can hold aggro. That is fun. That is necro. This...i dont know what this is.
You and everyone else that has been wanting a necro class that plays like the NPCs since launch... Since every other class's NPCs play almost exactly the same.1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tanking pet would be too strong in certain PvE scenarios and would reduce the role of tanks. That is why sorc' no longer have pet that can hold an aggro. Having pet that can hold an aggro is a mediocre improvement for a tank but very high improvement for DD especially in solo and 4 man content.
I would rather like to see general redesign of necro tank. As it is right now it's a class that can be best described on tank as a setup that on paper have all tools tank would want to have but all those tools are crippled in one way or another.Edited by Juhasow on March 3, 2020 6:00AM0 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »I want a zombie pet that can hold aggro. That is fun. That is necro. This...i dont know what this is.
Don't need a primary "tank" pet. As well if anything dealing with Zombies, they should be utility baked into a passive.
Like, attach Zombies to Rapid Rot.
While in combat every 2.5 seconds while in combat - spawn a shambling zombie that quickly lurches towards your target. The zombies rapidly decayed leaving behind a foul desecrated trail in a 8x6 area dealing X% damage for 3seconds to all in the area of decay.Tanking pet would be too strong in certain PvE scenarios and would reduce the role of tanks. That is why sorc' no longer have pet that can hold an aggro. Having pet that can hold an aggro is a mediocre improvement for a tank but very high improvement for DD especially in solo and 4 man content.
Don't need a pet to hold aggro or to taunt to be a tanking pet.
Skeleton soldier: Mediocre Melee dps (1H only)
Preforms basic melee attacks every 2.5 seconds
Morph 1: Skeleton Knight (Tank support + SnB)
Takes 10% of the damage to you and is transferred to the SK.
Will occasionally provide its master with minor protection for 12 seconds
(Can only happen once every 20.5 seconds)
Preforms both Heavy and Light melee attacks every 2 seconds
Morph 2: Skeleton Warrior (2H Dps)
Instead of transferring damage that you take to the Warrior, it will now retaliate striking with cleave hitting all nearby enemies with in 7 meters when ever you take damage. (can only happen once every 4.5 seconds)
Preforms both Heavy and Light melee attacks every 2 seconds
Also, if Mender/Mage(Archer) as well Soldier (if it ever did happen) should be, permanent, only through passives upgrades should make it "Pseudo Permanent" (i.e: longer duration, but not following everywhere all the time)
No ranks = 16 seconds
1st rank = 90 seconds
2nd rank = 180 seconds
Allow this to happen through Undead Confederate passive.
Mender would now instead of taking the 10% damage redirection, should have an increased 15% chance to preform an AoE healing spell, placed on the Intensive morph, and increase duration to 16 seconds. While Guardian morph should have a 15% chance to provide HoT along with it's ST healing.
Pestilence / Frost Colossus when activated, should explode all unused corpses with in 5 meters of the colossus; dealing 3% extra damage per corpse (unused) based on the morph.
And lastly, Grasp (both morphs, Ghostly and Empowering) should be baked into Last Grasp passive. Reduce the immobilize to 2 seconds, and the empowerment to 10% for 2.5 seconds. including, it trigger when ever you land a critical hit, with weapon or class ability, allowing it to trigger once every 3 seconds.
Just my opinion on it though.Edited by StormeReigns on March 3, 2020 6:37AM1 -
Ryskim✭✭✭I think the biggest thing people will miss from your statement is the "We want to play as the necromancers we usually see in game" statement.
Which is entirely true. The class reps agree.
The fact that necromancer NPCs play almost nothing like the class is kinda disgusting.
They're in the back summoning and buffing their minions as well as debuffing you. That is how a necro should be played.
Why did they try to re-invent their own wheel? Idk. It'd be like the guy who made tires decided the new model had to be unique so made them into a triangle.
Thank you. This is mostly the message I wanted to send.
We should be commanding the dead and buffing them. That's the essence of a necromancer in the Elder Scrolls lore. They did not need to reinvent anything at all.
As per some replies here and there regarding Necromancer tanking pet replacing actual tanks: NO.
- No, I'm not asking for a taunting move (it would be nice, but unnecessary). In the same way the Unstable Clannfear does, if you command your pet to attack, NPC enemies should be attacking the pet, not the caster, thus the pet would be effectively tanking to a degree/extent. This can never replace a tank's role in a dungeon or group content, because a tanking pet with similar capabilties as the Unstable Clannfear has a very limited ability to draw aggro and would be specifically balanced and created for solo PVE purposes or low to mid tier group PVE in an auxiliary way to support when things get out of control.
And we get to the point where we see the Necromancer in a very tactical support role during group content as it should be.
People saying Necromancer is super-duper fun is the problem, making devs believe this is the right way to have a necromancer in ESO. This class was highly requested since the beta, I was there in the forum threads asking for it, and this, what we have today, was not what most people was expecting.
1 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭I do find necro tanking super-duper fun honestly. I often use them for ultimates in trials: rez is real nice for early progging, coloss is real nice if short on necros, and Goliath rarely used but it's a solid emergency ultimate. They have useful alternatives to Warhorn/Barrier along with a magma essentially. The ultimate generation is pretty insane in trash, dungeons, OL, and Arena's.
The only big downside as a tank I feel is the burst heal requirement to be in melee range but Guardian+Tether+Stam shield does get the job done when stuck at range. They have more self-HoT option than all save NB, but necro is cheaper to maintain than NB. Really awesome synergy skills for all content. Grasp unfortunately is not all that useful; I tried it in lots of stuff. If that changed I don't think many if any would miss it.
If a pet that doesn't actually taunt but can be controlled is a goal for some, (it's not necro) but you can at least get what you want functionally with Maw of Infernal monster helmet set on any class for the time-being.0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭thadjarvis wrote: »I do find necro tanking super-duper fun honestly. I often use them for ultimates in trials: rez is real nice for early progging, coloss is real nice if short on necros, and Goliath rarely used but it's a solid emergency ultimate. They have useful alternatives to Warhorn/Barrier along with a magma essentially. The ultimate generation is pretty insane in trash, dungeons, OL, and Arena's.
The only big downside as a tank I feel is the burst heal requirement to be in melee range but Guardian+Tether+Stam shield does get the job done when stuck at range. They have more self-HoT option than all save NB, but necro is cheaper to maintain than NB. Really awesome synergy skills for all content. Grasp unfortunately is not all that useful; I tried it in lots of stuff. If that changed I don't think many if any would miss it.
If a pet that doesn't actually taunt but can be controlled is a goal for some, (it's not necro) but you can at least get what you want functionally with Maw of Infernal monster helmet set on any class for the time-being.
Grasp is an extremely useless skill.
Also the fact that necromancers make good tanks is quite frankly disgusting.
They should be support dps with summons and debuffs. Not tanks or healers. But I'd give them a pass on tanking if the healer option wasn't viable. Also if they replace grasp and the stupid looking scythe ability.0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the biggest thing people will miss from your statement is the "We want to play as the necromancers we usually see in game" statement.
Which is entirely true. The class reps agree.
The fact that necromancer NPCs play almost nothing like the class is kinda disgusting.
They're in the back summoning and buffing their minions as well as debuffing you. That is how a necro should be played.
Why did they try to re-invent their own wheel? Idk. It'd be like the guy who made tires decided the new model had to be unique so made them into a triangle.
Thank you. This is mostly the message I wanted to send.
We should be commanding the dead and buffing them. That's the essence of a necromancer in the Elder Scrolls lore. They did not need to reinvent anything at all.
As per some replies here and there regarding Necromancer tanking pet replacing actual tanks: NO.
- No, I'm not asking for a taunting move (it would be nice, but unnecessary). In the same way the Unstable Clannfear does, if you command your pet to attack, NPC enemies should be attacking the pet, not the caster, thus the pet would be effectively tanking to a degree/extent. This can never replace a tank's role in a dungeon or group content, because a tanking pet with similar capabilties as the Unstable Clannfear has a very limited ability to draw aggro and woulability. artically balanced and created for solo PVE purposes or low to mid tier group PVE in an auxiliary way to support when things get out of control.
And we get to the point where we see the Necromancer in a very tactical support role during group content as it should be.
People saying Necromancer is super-duper fun is the problem, making devs believe this is the right way to have a necromancer in ESO. This class was highly requested since the beta, I was there in the forum threads asking for it, and this, what we have today, was not what most people was expecting.
can agree completely. I'll start things off by saying yes, the people that think Necro is super duper fun are the BIGGEST problem here. Especially when the class reps for the class are trying heavily to get it changed.
The people that like the class in it's current state DO NOT want to play a necromancer. Plain and simple. You're lying if you think otherwise. And that is saying something. They want to play another type of sorcerer with no summons, can tank and heal without RELYING ON RAISING THE DEAD. These people wanted a necromancer that does dps, tank, and heal, they don't care how or why because as long as the class can do all 3 it doesn't matter. Necromancers should not be freaking healers.
I genuinely do not know a single person that was wanting a necromancer class that enjoys ZOS's version of it. I've had 2 friends quit the game because of how terrible the class is thematically.
It's fine if you like the class, not saying you can't, but please don't go around on the forums trying to tell everyone it's fine and you absolutely looooove the class.
ES, my favorite universe for necromancy, ironically has the worst necromancer class in MMO history.0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭
Grasp is an extremely useless skill.
Also the fact that necromancers make good tanks is quite frankly disgusting.
They should be support dps with summons and debuffs. Not tanks or healers. But I'd give them a pass on tanking if the healer option wasn't viable. Also if they replace grasp and the stupid looking scythe ability.
That's an RP opinion and there's no right or wrong there. Alternative way of looking at it are Necro as controllers that benefit from things dying (see their passives in detail). Other MMO's have CC focused roles but in ESO it's the tank with a little bit on the healer sometimes. Scythe is a symbol of the angle of death; ESO necro hits an enemy with it and draws life from target to self; makes sense to me I guess? As healers they are transferring death to their allies to kill maybe?
Everyone has a different idea, but if open-minded and creative one can create one's own story of ESO's necro as as far as it's skillset they seem consistently themed (maybe not what I or someone else envisioned but themed nonetheless).0
