Because everyone loves talking about the tank meta...

relentless_turnip · February 2020

Just my thoughts on how to reduce the tank meta, feel free to tell me its ***!!!

Without effecting PVE or no CP(neither of which I think are a problem):

Reduce cross healing through battle spirit.
Reduce healing received from an ally by 75% instead of 50% so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing.

Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group.
From my personal experience I don't feel self heals are much of a problem, feel free to disagree...

Allow us to switch smart healing priority so it always heals the caster first, this will avoid accidental cross healing, when you just want to use bloody rapid regen on yourself

Then just reduce the effectiveness of the red cp tree in pvp area's, this won't effect no cp or pve as i don't think it is an issue there. I would suggest reducing ironclad's(and thick skinned if DOTs ever become something to fear again) effectiveness by 50% so you will lose roughly 10% mitigation in cp campaigns. This should only happen again in a PvP zone via battle spirit.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

rotaugen454 · February 2020

Stop trying to make it a thing! It will never be a thing!

Nord_Raseri · February 2020

The supposed changes for cross healing to not include outside of group is interesting. Side note: Reducing effectiveness of the red tree WILL affect pve.

StaticWave · February 2020

If you nerf healing by 75% you will essentially kill solo PvP, or what's left of it.

WreckfulAbandon · February 2020

There are some buffs which if axed entirely would go some ways to reducing the tank meta.

Major Vitality and Major Protection come to mind. 20% healing done in Support Tree is another.

StormeReigns · February 2020

Nerf friendship. It only leads to pain and heartache, never magic.

TheRealCherokeee3 · February 2020

I will be the first to admit frustration when a player goes from 0-100 when I have them in execute range lol. But that's how PvP goes in Cyro so I accept that. In my mind however, the tank meta seems to have emerged from the power creep afforded heavy/resistance wearers. Years ago it used to be if you built for one thing, you'd sacrifice another and that seemed "balanced". If you were going to be tanky enough to endure a zerg on you, you'd most likely hit like a noodle. Likewise if you built to hit hard, you'd probably be killed from a sneeze. Those are extremes and not exactly how things were...but these days it seems stam mostly rules because the trade offs in building tanky AND hard hitting no longer apply...or not nearly as much. I could be wrong, but that's been my observation. So nerfing heals I don't believe would address the tank meta or change it. I think it would just further widen the gap and ensure even more ball groups to offset the change.

kargen27 · February 2020

"Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group."

I'm not sure about this one. Wouldn't the server have to check each player in your areas against your group list?

That aside I don't see this as a good idea. As it is now even if you are not in a group you can still contribute to the fight. Your change would take this away and have a negative impact on a lot of players.

D0PAMINE · February 2020

lol

relentless_turnip · February 2020

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

The supposed changes for cross healing to not include outside of group is interesting. Side note: Reducing effectiveness of the red tree WILL affect pve.

I said within a pvp zone i.e battle spirit.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

StaticWave wrote: »

If you nerf healing by 75% you will essentially kill solo PvP, or what's left of it.

I said received from ally/party member... you would still be able to heal yourself the same.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »

I will be the first to admit frustration when a player goes from 0-100 when I have them in execute range lol. But that's how PvP goes in Cyro so I accept that. In my mind however, the tank meta seems to have emerged from the power creep afforded heavy/resistance wearers. Years ago it used to be if you built for one thing, you'd sacrifice another and that seemed "balanced". If you were going to be tanky enough to endure a zerg on you, you'd most likely hit like a noodle. Likewise if you built to hit hard, you'd probably be killed from a sneeze. Those are extremes and not exactly how things were...but these days it seems stam mostly rules because the trade offs in building tanky AND hard hitting no longer apply...or not nearly as much. I could be wrong, but that's been my observation. So nerfing heals I don't believe would address the tank meta or change it. I think it would just further widen the gap and ensure even more ball groups to offset the change.

I completely agree with this. I do not see these issues in no cp though... I tend to play a pretty even amount of both and in no cp there isn't anyone really unstoppable. Even a PVE tank can be taken down solo due to the limitations on resources and mitigation.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

kargen27 wrote: »

"Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group."

I'm not sure about this one. Wouldn't the server have to check each player in your areas against your group list?

That aside I don't see this as a good idea. As it is now even if you are not in a group you can still contribute to the fight. Your change would take this away and have a negative impact on a lot of players.

You make a good point and I am no expert on coding. superficially if the server only had to search the group it would reduce server calculations and sway some of the cross healing. Perhaps the compromise would be to lessen the area you can heal someone in, but then that just makes healing your group harder...

A solo player amongst a zerg can still contribute damage, I play solo and small man mainly... I'm not sure how much healing I truly receive from other players outside of my group/myself.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

There are some buffs which if axed entirely would go some ways to reducing the tank meta.

Major Vitality and Major Protection come to mind. 20% healing done in Support Tree is another.

Not a bad idea, but I don't see self healing as a problem really and I don't see these problems in no cp. My home campaign is always the no cp campaign.

It is only when I play the cp campaign(which I do play alot) that i notice the huge increase in resistance. You are obviously also doing more damage so the the red tree has to be altered very carefully, That is why i suggested making ironclad and thick skinned 50% less effective through battle spirit. As it only effects the CP campaign.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Stop trying to make it a thing! It will never be a thing!

A thing?! What thing?! My opinion is a thing?!

caperb · February 2020

If you want to remove the tank meta then nerfing heals isn't the solution. Healing is a defence mechanic and depending on your class you rely more or less on healing for defence. Sure my sorc will be happy if you nerf healing. Wait... is this a nerf sorc thread?

Primary defence mechanics that are different on each class shouldn't be nerfed too hard.

You can also do this the other way around, increase damage. But of course this wouldn't be fair either because some classes have better access to % damage reduction skills than others.

I think the fairest option would be to decrease resistances and critical resistance in the battle spirit debuff.

Just accept it. It isn't going to happen and tank meta is here to stay for a while unless ZOS does some unholy magic. You can also play no CP.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

caperb wrote: »

If you want to remove the tank meta then nerfing heals isn't the solution. Healing is a defence mechanic and depending on your class you rely more or less on healing for defence. Sure my sorc will be happy if you nerf healing. Wait... is this a nerf sorc thread?

Primary defence mechanics that are different on each class shouldn't be nerfed too hard.

You can also do this the other way around, increase damage. But of course this wouldn't be fair either because some classes have better access to % damage reduction skills than others.

I think the fairest option would be to decrease resistances and critical resistance in the battle spirit debuff.

Just accept it. It isn't going to happen and tank meta is here to stay for a while unless ZOS does some unholy magic. You can also play no CP.

I am only suggesting reducing healing received from other players via battle spirit. Not messing with self healing which I feel is fine!

I agree with reducing resistance through battle spirit, but I have suggested only through the CP tree via battle spirit.
I also suggested only a slight change of reducing the effect of ironclad and thick skinned by 50% via battle spirit.
I don't feel this is a problem in no cp pvp. Feel free to disagree...

Also Nerf Sorc!!!

relentless_turnip · February 2020

Just as a bit of a disclaimer:

I am actually really enjoying Dragonhold and only feel it needs minor tweaks...

I am just giving my thoughts on how a general tweak to battle spirit would look to me.
It's cool if you disagree and want to give your opinion.

Sergykid · February 2020

not this again ...

relentless_turnip · February 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

not this again ...

You make it sound like it is a "cancel animation cancelling" thread or "Nerf Sorc" thread

Of course it is both!!

BRogueNZ · February 2020

whats you going to do when Fengrush wants his mouth back
when the game doesn't add 50ms and subtracts 20-30 just by joining a group then ok group heals til then keep cryin

BackStabeth · February 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Just my thoughts on how to reduce the tank meta, feel free to tell me its ***!!!

Without effecting PVE or no CP(neither of which I think are a problem):

Nerf cross healing through battle spirit.
Reduce healing received from an ally by 75% instead of 50% so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing.

Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group.
From my personal experience I don't feel self heals are much of a problem, feel free to disagree...

Allow us to switch smart healing priority so it always heals the caster first, this will avoid accidental cross healing, when you just want to use bloody rapid regen on yourself

Then just reduce the effectiveness of the red cp tree in pvp area's, this won't effect no cp or pve as i don't think it is an issue there. I would suggest reducing ironclad's(and thick skinned if DOTs ever become something to fear again) effectiveness by 50% so you will lose roughly 10% mitigation in cp campaigns. This should only happen again in a PvP zone via battle spirit.

I enjoy these posts a lot. It just brings to light how many people who PvP want to make it easier to just kill people. They are not interested in a fair, equatable fight where they have to actually put forth some effort, work with their team mates, learn game mechanics etc, they just want to nerf all those things that make it difficult to kill other players.

Thank god ESO PvP does not include PKing, these very people in their overzealous need to kill other players would be ganking new players so often there wouldn't be any and the game would die.

Please, continue to post these please to reduce healing and tanking and whatever else prevents you from instantly killing other players, I find it hugely amusing. It also just reinforces the fact that many people who engage in PvP are just looking for easy, simple kills and no real challenge at all.

StaticWave · February 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you nerf healing by 75% you will essentially kill solo PvP, or what's left of it.

I said received from ally/party member... you would still be able to heal yourself the same.

Healing received also buffs your own heals. That's why a 25k vigor only heals for half in cyrodiil, due to the -50% healing received. You can't really do much tweaking without completely changing how the buff works.

MaleAmazon · February 2020

Well, I have played long enough to remember when "heavy armor is useless in PvP omg, everyone knows that light armor burst rulez".

So let´s not overreact.

Also, they have acknowledged even before the patch that healing would be next for balancing, they just decided to focus on one thing (damage output), bringing it into line.

IMO they should look at (look at, not reflexively change) battle spirit. That is one giant defensive buff. It just seems that at the moment, along with other changes it favours the defense meta. But really, small changes and things may be very different.

Panic patches is not a good idea.

Also, no offense, but the OPs change suggestions are bad. "Cut healing by 75%". Please. With healing having such a small effect, people would just abandon it for some other defensive measure or damage reduction.

I do like the 'prioritize healing on self' though. That´s smart thinking.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

StaticWave wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you nerf healing by 75% you will essentially kill solo PvP, or what's left of it.

I said received from ally/party member... you would still be able to heal yourself the same.

Healing received also buffs your own heals. That's why a 25k vigor only heals for half in cyrodiil, due to the -50% healing received. You can't really do much tweaking without completely changing how the buff works.

I am aware of this, I am suggesting a seperate buff via battle spirit. i.e the current -50% healing received and additional -75% healing received from an ally. Meaning self healing would be the same it is now.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

BackStabeth wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Just my thoughts on how to reduce the tank meta, feel free to tell me its ***!!!

Without effecting PVE or no CP(neither of which I think are a problem):

Nerf cross healing through battle spirit.
Reduce healing received from an ally by 75% instead of 50% so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing.

Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group.
From my personal experience I don't feel self heals are much of a problem, feel free to disagree...

Allow us to switch smart healing priority so it always heals the caster first, this will avoid accidental cross healing, when you just want to use bloody rapid regen on yourself

Then just reduce the effectiveness of the red cp tree in pvp area's, this won't effect no cp or pve as i don't think it is an issue there. I would suggest reducing ironclad's(and thick skinned if DOTs ever become something to fear again) effectiveness by 50% so you will lose roughly 10% mitigation in cp campaigns. This should only happen again in a PvP zone via battle spirit.

I enjoy these posts a lot. It just brings to light how many people who PvP want to make it easier to just kill people. They are not interested in a fair, equatable fight where they have to actually put forth some effort, work with their team mates, learn game mechanics etc, they just want to nerf all those things that make it difficult to kill other players.

Thank god ESO PvP does not include PKing, these very people in their overzealous need to kill other players would be ganking new players so often there wouldn't be any and the game would die.

Please, continue to post these please to reduce healing and tanking and whatever else prevents you from instantly killing other players, I find it hugely amusing. It also just reinforces the fact that many people who engage in PvP are just looking for easy, simple kills and no real challenge at all.

Good talk mate

I am enjoying dragonhold these are suggestions to reduce over tankiness... I am not suggesting making the game easier, I love it. These are suggested tweaks and are my opinion, not patch notes

so chill!!!

I actually main a magDK and enjoy the longer fights and am not looking to burst anyone down in seconds. If i did i would be running onslaught on my stam alts....

relentless_turnip · February 2020

BRogueNZ wrote: »

whats you going to do when @Fengrush wants his mouth back
when the game doesn't add 50ms and subtracts 20-30 just by joining a group then ok group heals til then keep cryin

.......... k?

relentless_turnip · February 2020

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Well, I have played long enough to remember when "heavy armor is useless in PvP omg, everyone knows that light armor burst rulez".

So let´s not overreact.

Also, they have acknowledged even before the patch that healing would be next for balancing, they just decided to focus on one thing (damage output), bringing it into line.

IMO they should look at (look at, not reflexively change) battle spirit. That is one giant defensive buff. It just seems that at the moment, along with other changes it favours the defense meta. But really, small changes and things may be very different.

Panic patches is not a good idea.

Also, no offense, but the OPs change suggestions are bad. "Cut healing by 75%". Please. With healing having such a small effect, people would just abandon it for some other defensive measure or damage reduction.

I do like the 'prioritize healing on self' though. That´s smart thinking.

Appreciate your thoughts.
I am only suggesting reducing healing received from an ally by 75% up from the current 50% via battle spirit.
This would not effect current self healing which i think is fine!

The only reason I wouldn't adjust the current battle spirit is that i think no CP pvp is fine.
You may disagree and thats cool.
That is why i suggested an addition to battle spirit that only effects the effectiveness of the cp tree and not no cp or PVE.

eso_lags · February 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Just my thoughts on how to reduce the tank meta, feel free to tell me its ***!!!

Without effecting PVE or no CP(neither of which I think are a problem):

Nerf cross healing through battle spirit.
Reduce healing received from an ally by 75% instead of 50% so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing.

Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group.
From my personal experience I don't feel self heals are much of a problem, feel free to disagree...

Allow us to switch smart healing priority so it always heals the caster first, this will avoid accidental cross healing, when you just want to use bloody rapid regen on yourself

Then just reduce the effectiveness of the red cp tree in pvp area's, this won't effect no cp or pve as i don't think it is an issue there. I would suggest reducing ironclad's(and thick skinned if DOTs ever become something to fear again) effectiveness by 50% so you will lose roughly 10% mitigation in cp campaigns. This should only happen again in a PvP zone via battle spirit.

I couldnt agree more pal, at least with the reducing healing received from allies. In fact, I think it should be dropped by 50% after the 50% from battle spirit is already applied. The amount of bad players who are carried on the back of templars is awful. A half competent magplar will carry a whole group of bots, and a game should never be like that. Especially considering how a lot of these magplars can still hit like a truck while carrying a group of bad players. It blows my mind.

so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing. - Thats how it always should have been.

But just like so many things that should be, we will never see it. Zos likes casuals because casuals make money. And casuals like getting carried by healers, mainly magplars. Zos also likes easy mode, and they dont want people to have to put in too much effort to do well. Its a shame that so many games go down this path, but it is what it is. Easy mode games that are aimed at more casual players and offer little to no challenge throughout almost all of the game, and micro transactions, seem to be the way of the future in most mmos.

relentless_turnip · February 2020

eso_lags wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Just my thoughts on how to reduce the tank meta, feel free to tell me its ***!!!

Without effecting PVE or no CP(neither of which I think are a problem):

Nerf cross healing through battle spirit.
Reduce healing received from an ally by 75% instead of 50% so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing.

Only allow heals to party members in a pvp area, this should reduce server calculations too. What I mean is you should only be able to heal members of your group.
From my personal experience I don't feel self heals are much of a problem, feel free to disagree...

Allow us to switch smart healing priority so it always heals the caster first, this will avoid accidental cross healing, when you just want to use bloody rapid regen on yourself

Then just reduce the effectiveness of the red cp tree in pvp area's, this won't effect no cp or pve as i don't think it is an issue there. I would suggest reducing ironclad's(and thick skinned if DOTs ever become something to fear again) effectiveness by 50% so you will lose roughly 10% mitigation in cp campaigns. This should only happen again in a PvP zone via battle spirit.

I couldnt agree more pal, at least with the reducing healing received from allies. In fact, I think it should be dropped by 50% after the 50% from battle spirit is already applied. The amount of bad players who are carried on the back of templars is awful. A half competent magplar will carry a whole group of bots, and a game should never be like that. Especially considering how a lot of these magplars can still hit like a truck while carrying a group of bad players. It blows my mind.

so only a dedicated healer can have a real impact on ally healing. - Thats how it always should have been.

But just like so many things that should be, we will never see it. Zos likes casuals because casuals make money. And casuals like getting carried by healers, mainly magplars. Zos also likes easy mode, and they dont want people to have to put in too much effort to do well. Its a shame that so many games go down this path, but it is what it is. Easy mode games that are aimed at more casual players and offer little to no challenge throughout almost all of the game, and micro transactions, seem to be the way of the future in most mmos.

Thanks for your input mate. I didn't want dissuade anyone from being an actual healer in PVP, but i don't think everyone should be healing everyone either. This coupled with the idea of changing smart healing priority to self healing creates a conscious opportunity to be a healer.