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How the new block is system going to work explained by Zos Gilliam's livestream Twitch Video Clip.
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Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »So will this help fix hp desyncs? Otherwise its just another dumbing down of the combat which will make it feel slower like with cast times...just another step in appeasing the rp casuals.
so did you not watch the video or not comprehend what was said?
YOUR animation canceling, what YOU see on your screen is NOT indicative of what others are seeing or experiencing, and the only person your tricking or messing with is yourself.
what others see is your full animations and actual execution of when you block and what your doing.
so YOUR saying "WTF I BLOCKED THAT REEEEEE!!!!"
what the other person (and the SERVER) and the death recap are saying is "no you didn't, have you tried blocking?"
because your seeing animations and numbers play far in advance of when other people and the server see them, your trying to outplay everyone else and your only outplaying yourself.
Technically, yes. Practically no, because of lag. If you will wait for all animations to end and wait for feedback from server you won't kill anybody unless your build is much better or opponent is of much lesser skill. For example, typical cc->onslaught combo opening. If you will wait for your cc-animation and then for confirmation of cc from server, your opponent will have good chance to break free and roll-dodge before onslaught is landed. Now if you block cancel or bar swap cancel cc and use onslaught immediately before server feedback it will hit almost always. Those 100 ms here and there is a huge difference in combat and animation cancelling allows to squeeze them a bit here and there to receive advantage.
So, basically, same thing again and again: "There shouldn't be a counter play. I want my anicancel combos to successfully hit a target, my enemies shouldn't have time to react and to counter play."
Exactly, what else would it be? This is THE MAIN REASON why we're increasingly getting sick of animation canceling each and every day.6 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So block canceling is still a thing, which is good, but it now shows you blocking when the server knows you're blocking. Might be a pain in the butt when things begin to lag but this is a nice change. I think...PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »So will this help fix hp desyncs? Otherwise its just another dumbing down of the combat which will make it feel slower like with cast times...just another step in appeasing the rp casuals.
so did you not watch the video or not comprehend what was said?
YOUR animation canceling, what YOU see on your screen is NOT indicative of what others are seeing or experiencing, and the only person your tricking or messing with is yourself.
what others see is your full animations and actual execution of when you block and what your doing.
so YOUR saying "WTF I BLOCKED THAT REEEEEE!!!!"
what the other person (and the SERVER) and the death recap are saying is "no you didn't, have you tried blocking?"
because your seeing animations and numbers play far in advance of when other people and the server see them, your trying to outplay everyone else and your only outplaying yourself.
Technically, yes. Practically no, because of lag. If you will wait for all animations to end and wait for feedback from server you won't kill anybody unless your build is much better or opponent is of much lesser skill. For example, typical cc->onslaught combo opening. If you will wait for your cc-animation and then for confirmation of cc from server, your opponent will have good chance to break free and roll-dodge before onslaught is landed. Now if you block cancel or bar swap cancel cc and use onslaught immediately before server feedback it will hit almost always. Those 100 ms here and there is a huge difference in combat and animation cancelling allows to squeeze them a bit here and there to receive advantage.
So, basically, same thing again and again: "There shouldn't be a counter play. I want my anicancel combos to successfully hit a target, my enemies shouldn't have time to react and to counter play."
Exactly, what else would it be? This is THE MAIN REASON why we're increasingly getting sick of animation canceling each and every day.
Cast times on every ability would feel far worse than it does to get smacked in PvP
Animation canceling does way more good than harm4 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gillium completely explained it perfectly and he and the other developers are right.
it works awesome, i have tried it.Edited by Gilvoth on February 6, 2020 6:41PM0 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JamieAubrey wrote: »There was a live stream ?
There was yesterday.PC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is amazing.
This actually does a great deal to fix what I hate about animation cancelling in this game - visual mismatching and janky animations. It will feel a lot more logical and intuitive.
Thank you!1 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭Should help some with the mortal kombat finish him type macro combos common in PVP. People have become great masters of using the de-syncs to their advantage in creating multi-hit combos that do not animate to their victims.I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gilliam’s explanation makes sense. It sounds good but I’m not sure about all this. I think they’re trying to redo a bunch of internal systems to combat the lag.
When there was less lag there were no issues. Even back in Homestead it was less laggy.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭f047ys3v3n wrote: »Should help some with the mortal kombat finish him type macro combos common in PVP. People have become great masters of using the de-syncs to their advantage in creating multi-hit combos that do not animate to their victims.
Wow everything You've said is wrong.1 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Good video and explanation. But I think Gilliam is underestimating how all this cancelling and de-sync works in scope of whole burst, and not single attack. Thing is that you can "queue" more attacks to the server even before you see health reduced on your target. Given that another player needs time to react and there is some delay between his client and server... it is (or was) worth to do this animation cancels, and line up your burst (ignoring what you see on screen). There are really small % of fights with comparable opponents (in terms of build and attack speed) where you have clear win. In majority of cases some de-sync kill, death or unbreakable cc is involved - will this change solve those de-syncs.. we'll see.
As for now de-sync is so high in Cyro, that key thing to win is to use "precognition" and act before you receive feedback from server, both on offense and defense.
Yep, currently sort of need jedi powers for dodging and blocking, since most often when you see the animation from enemies on what you trying to react to - it is already too late and you are already hit (or in same cases already dead, but trying to block cast burst heal, just to see blue screen in the next second or 2).
So to my pvp playstyle has become very much routine to do dodges and tap blocks even before see enemy do burst combos or "big hits", eats resources and disrupts often my own efficiency, but better be rollin', tapping & moving than dead.
It felt horribly slow and bad the new Block at PTS when i tested it, like we had went from an AAA game with fluid combat to a poor 1 man game studio from 90`s browser mmo with clunky animations.
I feel like we are moving to super casual direction where combat gonna be almost like turn-based slow. While it at start might appeal and attract casual masses, it will drive away oldies when there comes another game that is what ESO was when they still liked it. Fast & reactive combos, fluid animation transfers.
And casuals are a big mass, that first might seem happy to have a super casual game where numbers win pvp combat and best pvp is pvdooring.. but then, from that casual mass will rise people who wanna suddenly evolve to.. "git gud" and then they realize this game does has a skill ceiling so low, that there is nothing to evolve to - nothing that will make you better than your fellows since mechanics stop you from playing faster and better. So those casuals get bored and leave after bored to the Barbie and Ken roleplay at Alinor wayshrine.
It HAS been the best combat system in ANY mmo game - so why change & break something that works and been awesome? Personally i am not sure that changing block ani cancel details will help on performance.. other than if there are fewer players then performance gets better - like as a pve tank the new block felt terrible so i guess fewer tank players soon. Not like there are too many already.
All i can say is: Make sure at next patch in both pve & pvp.. that Blocking is not important part of what makes your build a success. Because unless they fix it to more reliable and smooth again, you will feel bad while playing.
With all that heavy criticism said and done, if someone still thinks i am Brian W`s 2nd account.. you might wanna consider your statement again.
tl/dr: Why has this games near perfect combat system that it was some time ago has to be changed to simplified, slow and clunky that feels as "smooth" to play like some browser mmo game from the 90`s.
PS. I love this game and what it was and has been as a person who likes to always get better, faster and challenge myself. It is not possible anymore if game will be mechanically made impossible to progress beyond certain almost turn-based speed of combat. #KeepCombatFast & #SmoothAniCancelisLOVE
Edited by Moonsorrow on February 7, 2020 7:45AM4 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »So will this help fix hp desyncs? Otherwise its just another dumbing down of the combat which will make it feel slower like with cast times...just another step in appeasing the rp casuals.
so did you not watch the video or not comprehend what was said?
YOUR animation canceling, what YOU see on your screen is NOT indicative of what others are seeing or experiencing, and the only person your tricking or messing with is yourself.
what others see is your full animations and actual execution of when you block and what your doing.
so YOUR saying "WTF I BLOCKED THAT REEEEEE!!!!"
what the other person (and the SERVER) and the death recap are saying is "no you didn't, have you tried blocking?"
because your seeing animations and numbers play far in advance of when other people and the server see them, your trying to outplay everyone else and your only outplaying yourself.
Technically, yes. Practically no, because of lag. If you will wait for all animations to end and wait for feedback from server you won't kill anybody unless your build is much better or opponent is of much lesser skill. For example, typical cc->onslaught combo opening. If you will wait for your cc-animation and then for confirmation of cc from server, your opponent will have good chance to break free and roll-dodge before onslaught is landed. Now if you block cancel or bar swap cancel cc and use onslaught immediately before server feedback it will hit almost always. Those 100 ms here and there is a huge difference in combat and animation cancelling allows to squeeze them a bit here and there to receive advantage.
So, basically, same thing again and again: "There shouldn't be a counter play. I want my anicancel combos to successfully hit a target, my enemies shouldn't have time to react and to counter play."
There is counter play - to predict what will happen and use timed block/roll-dodge/healing/cc before it happened.
This video clearly shows they are not removing animation cancelling. They're improving the visuals of the system without affecting the gameplay. But good job reminding us all how in denial ESO’s animation cancelling defenders are. For Honor has an excellent animation cancelling system that allows for insanely high skill, high reflex, baiting, and counter play styles. ESO’s animation cancelling system is a broken unintended mess that doesn’t allow for high skill counter play, baiting, and reflexes. It just rewards whoever has the better ping.11 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gilliam’s explanation makes sense. It sounds good but I’m not sure about all this. I think they’re trying to redo a bunch of internal systems to combat the lag.
When there was less lag there were no issues. Even back in Homestead it was less laggy.
Yeah I think that is one of the main reasons why they are doing all of this. Because well there is more players on the servers and they need to get a handle on it.
Or they can just open up maybe a new pc eu/russian server to reduce the amount of people on eu logging into one mega server. There is many things they can do to help with the performance. With the growing number of players it wouldn't hurt for them to maybe invest in extra servers. Maybe even allowing transfers for those that want to go to those servers to have better performance.Edited by Thevampirenight on February 7, 2020 10:36AMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.0 -
Lady_Linux✭✭✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Today during the live stream They had a prerecorded video explaining in detail from the Dev Gilliam how the new Block system works.
Which I think the community should see so they know what to expect from the new changes. They explained into detail of how Dy sequencing works and how the new blocking system works.
Here you guys go. They even made it into a separate video clip so players can see this. So I thought it would be a good idea to post it here.
so, nerf animation canceling and nerf sorc?I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.
BTW, I use arch too1 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darkstorne wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »So will this help fix hp desyncs? Otherwise its just another dumbing down of the combat which will make it feel slower like with cast times...just another step in appeasing the rp casuals.
so did you not watch the video or not comprehend what was said?
YOUR animation canceling, what YOU see on your screen is NOT indicative of what others are seeing or experiencing, and the only person your tricking or messing with is yourself.
what others see is your full animations and actual execution of when you block and what your doing.
so YOUR saying "WTF I BLOCKED THAT REEEEEE!!!!"
what the other person (and the SERVER) and the death recap are saying is "no you didn't, have you tried blocking?"
because your seeing animations and numbers play far in advance of when other people and the server see them, your trying to outplay everyone else and your only outplaying yourself.
Technically, yes. Practically no, because of lag. If you will wait for all animations to end and wait for feedback from server you won't kill anybody unless your build is much better or opponent is of much lesser skill. For example, typical cc->onslaught combo opening. If you will wait for your cc-animation and then for confirmation of cc from server, your opponent will have good chance to break free and roll-dodge before onslaught is landed. Now if you block cancel or bar swap cancel cc and use onslaught immediately before server feedback it will hit almost always. Those 100 ms here and there is a huge difference in combat and animation cancelling allows to squeeze them a bit here and there to receive advantage.
So, basically, same thing again and again: "There shouldn't be a counter play. I want my anicancel combos to successfully hit a target, my enemies shouldn't have time to react and to counter play."
There is counter play - to predict what will happen and use timed block/roll-dodge/healing/cc before it happened.
This video clearly shows they are not removing animation cancelling. They're improving the visuals of the system without affecting the gameplay. But good job reminding us all how in denial ESO’s animation cancelling defenders are. For Honor has an excellent animation cancelling system that allows for insanely high skill, high reflex, baiting, and counter play styles. ESO’s animation cancelling system is a broken unintended mess that doesn’t allow for high skill counter play, baiting, and reflexes. It just rewards whoever has the better ping.
yet for honor is more dead than ESO lul.1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still hate that huge floating block/shield indicator, though.
Especially because it's Elven/Glass style for everyone.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »So will this help fix hp desyncs? Otherwise its just another dumbing down of the combat which will make it feel slower like with cast times...just another step in appeasing the rp casuals.
so did you not watch the video or not comprehend what was said?
YOUR animation canceling, what YOU see on your screen is NOT indicative of what others are seeing or experiencing, and the only person your tricking or messing with is yourself.
what others see is your full animations and actual execution of when you block and what your doing.
so YOUR saying "WTF I BLOCKED THAT REEEEEE!!!!"
what the other person (and the SERVER) and the death recap are saying is "no you didn't, have you tried blocking?"
because your seeing animations and numbers play far in advance of when other people and the server see them, your trying to outplay everyone else and your only outplaying yourself.
Technically, yes. Practically no, because of lag. If you will wait for all animations to end and wait for feedback from server you won't kill anybody unless your build is much better or opponent is of much lesser skill. For example, typical cc->onslaught combo opening. If you will wait for your cc-animation and then for confirmation of cc from server, your opponent will have good chance to break free and roll-dodge before onslaught is landed. Now if you block cancel or bar swap cancel cc and use onslaught immediately before server feedback it will hit almost always. Those 100 ms here and there is a huge difference in combat and animation cancelling allows to squeeze them a bit here and there to receive advantage.
So, basically, same thing again and again: "There shouldn't be a counter play. I want my anicancel combos to successfully hit a target, my enemies shouldn't have time to react and to counter play."
There is counter play - to predict what will happen and use timed block/roll-dodge/healing/cc before it happened.
This video clearly shows they are not removing animation cancelling. They're improving the visuals of the system without affecting the gameplay. But good job reminding us all how in denial ESO’s animation cancelling defenders are. For Honor has an excellent animation cancelling system that allows for insanely high skill, high reflex, baiting, and counter play styles. ESO’s animation cancelling system is a broken unintended mess that doesn’t allow for high skill counter play, baiting, and reflexes. It just rewards whoever has the better ping.
Sad but true. But removing animation cancelling is not a fix. Now ESO is like used BMW M-series - it's fun when it works, but it is broken pretty often. With removed animation cancelling it will be some cheap Renault - reliable but boring. IRL reliability is more important then fun in most cases, but game exists for fun, so without animation cancel ESO might become unplayable.
I remember first month of play before I "discovered" animation cancelling, it was so unbearably tiresome to play that only my love to TES lore kept me going and I was ready to delete game any day, and only when I occasionally discovered that you may use both light attack and ability in same second and entirely cut animations with bar swap, it became interesting.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Good video and explanation. But I think Gilliam is underestimating how all this cancelling and de-sync works in scope of whole burst, and not single attack. Thing is that you can "queue" more attacks to the server even before you see health reduced on your target. Given that another player needs time to react and there is some delay between his client and server... it is (or was) worth to do this animation cancels, and line up your burst (ignoring what you see on screen). There are really small % of fights with comparable opponents (in terms of build and attack speed) where you have clear win. In majority of cases some de-sync kill, death or unbreakable cc is involved - will this change solve those de-syncs.. we'll see.
As for now de-sync is so high in Cyro, that key thing to win is to use "precognition" and act before you receive feedback from server, both on offense and defense.
And casuals are a big mass, that first might seem happy to have a super casual game where numbers win pvp combat and best pvp is pvdooring.. but then, from that casual mass will rise people who wanna suddenly evolve to.. "git gud" and then they realize this game does has a skill ceiling so low, that there is nothing to evolve to - nothing that will make you better than your fellows since mechanics stop you from playing faster and better. So those casuals get bored and leave after bored to the Barbie and Ken roleplay at Alinor wayshrine.
tl/dr: Why has this games near perfect combat system that it was some time ago has to be changed to simplified, slow and clunky that feels as "smooth" to play like some browser mmo game from the 90`s.
PS. I love this game and what it was and has been as a person who likes to always get better, faster and challenge myself. It is not possible anymore if game will be mechanically made impossible to progress beyond certain almost turn-based speed of combat. #KeepCombatFast & #SmoothAniCancelisLOVE
100% agree. All those casual PVP-ers who are voting to remove animation cancel, don't understand that without 1vXers, without trolls, without bombers, without salty smallscales, ESO PVP will become boring for them too within few days.0 -
xxthir13enxx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Long story short
This will fix an issue where you thought you were blocking but server said, “Nope, not yet”3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xxthir13enxx wrote: »Long story short
This will fix an issue where you thought you were blocking but server said, “Nope, not yet”
No. Jump on PTS and see, it works unstable, with bugs and less fluid then live version.1 -
Grandesdar✭✭✭AS a tank main PvE player, I can't express how much I love this change! I have had so many occasions this happening to me, and I always thought my block button not working, or that I only imagined I pressed it. Now it seems much responsive and smooth. No need to worry if my block went through.
Also when I first read the title I thought there's going to be a blocking system like in For Honor etc. Thank God it didn't happen.Main: The Charismatic StamDK DD
Side: A Handsome Warden Healer
Side: (upcoming) Stam Necro DD
CP: 680
EU PSN: Style35131 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well I think it would be wise if more people see this so going to raise it back up here. Because it does explain what they are trying to fix with the block changes and their fixes to the health desyncs. After phoenixkungfu created his latest thread I thought it would be a good idea to bring this one up so players know whats coming.
So I do think they are going to work to fix a lot of the animation canceling not because its an exploit but because of the health desyncing and most importantly performance since its gotten so bad they are having to address it. Or alter the animation canceling so it works the opposite of the way it does now but making it so it isn't as fast as before. I don't know what they are going to do but I think it might be what they are going for. So in order for performance to be fixed to be better I think Animation canceling and a lot of how it works could be on the chopping block or altered.
Edited by Thevampirenight on February 20, 2020 7:38AMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.0 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think half the people commenting have watched or understood the video. They still misunderstand how it works onlive today lolXbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0
half of the "banish animation cancelling" posts are born of this kind of ignorance...