Khajiit racials still underwhelming?

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

Aztlan wrote: »

Yeah, 10% crit damage sounds good, but testing has revealed that khajiit fall short of other races for PvE DPS. That passive needs a buff.

Maybe only the flat resources need a buff.

WrathOfInnos · February 2020

Stx wrote: »

I would have to disagree. For pure dps builds, 85 regen, 825 max resource plus health, and 10% crit damage is amazing. The overall stat budget is also quite good. Khajit are low key one of the best races out there. The crit damage is huge for dps, and crit damage is a lot harder to get from gear than stamina or weapon damage.

Those are bold claims. Care to back them up?

Khajiit is like 7th best DPS race (behind Orcs, all Elves, Bretons and Redguards). It’s barely better than Imperial, and Imperial gets a lot more health and sustain, as well as cheaper ultimates. Sure Khajiit can do more DPS than Argonians and Nords, but at least those are useful as healers and tanks.

MashmalloMan · February 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

Yeah, 10% crit damage sounds good, but testing has revealed that khajiit fall short of other races for PvE DPS. That passive needs a buff.

Maybe only the flat resources need a buff.

What I'd like to see:

1250 HP, 1000 Stam, 1000 Magicka.
125 HP Reg, 100 Stam reg, 100 mag reg.
12% Crit Damage OR.... 8% Crit Chance OR.... 5% Crit Chance + 5% Crit Damage.

Crit Chance is a nice option because if you're trying to make this a "jack of all trades" race, then it's harder for Tanks/Healers to have high enough Crit Chance to utilize the Crit Damage, Crit Chance fixes this while not harming the DPS side of the equation. I personally like both the best.

Drachdhar · February 2020

As has been mentioned...
I find upping the regens to 125 Stam and Mag and maybe 150 Health... And the stat boosts to 1250 for Health and 1k for Stam and Mag each would be good.
And possibly replace the Crit Damage Bonus with 5-7% Crit Chance and maybe a movement speed buff... 5% Increased Movement Speed or 10% Extra Sprint Speed.
10% Crit Damage Bonus is way to low for a pinnacle racial ability, considering that other racial pinnacle abilities tend to land at the value of 1.5-2 Mundus Stones and the extra stealth boost is just mostly plain useless... at least.

Edziu · February 2020

Drachdhar wrote: »

10% Crit Damage Bonus is way to low for a pinnacle racial ability, considering that other racial pinnacle abilities tend to land at the value of 1.5-2 Mundus Stones and the extra stealth boost is just mostly plain useless... at least.

and as to this this is sad as 10% crit dmg is similiar with a bit lower also crit dmg of races like orc, altmer or dunmer...their weapon/spell damage is much better not only because this is a bit better from 10% crit dmg bonus but so this apply also to non-crit hits and btw this weapon/spell dmg you are also able to buff via brutality/sorcerery

so khajiit 10% crit dmg bonus....is falling behind every other race with raw weapon/spell dmg

Drako_Ei · February 2020

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

750 primary resource + 85 primary recovery + 10% critical damage is pretty good. The 10% crit damage is the best, especially in PvP where bonus crit damage bites into impen. It's fun seeing 11k Dark Flare crits in battlegrounds!!

If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.

10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.

Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?

10% crit damage might be worth the first 23 points of CP, but that also means it's worth the next like 40 in that same star, right?

I love khajiit and would love a racial buff!! But think they're in a good spot right now. Maybe a bonus to the recovery passive would be nice

Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....

You know orc's crit hits deal more damage than khajiit crit hits?

IonicKai · February 2020

In the original wrathstone draft khajiits had crit chance which gave them some of the best parses (although less consistency and average parse because it was chance based) which put them in a very competitive spot. I think they should get crit chance again to make them viable as a proper contender. The original argument was that the crit chance they got (I think 8% ) was too strong so 6-7% would probably make the most sense or lik someone suggested give them 5% chance and damage boost. With this they still wouldn't beat an orc for stam or high elf for mag but should be within 1% or less which gives the choice that wrathstone was supposed to provide.

Edit: typo

Drachdhar · February 2020

And something other than the nigh useless 3m reduction to stealth detection...
Khajiit are supposed to be quick, so make it a movement buff...

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

Drachdhar wrote: »

And something other than the nigh useless 3m reduction to stealth detection...
Khajiit are supposed to be quick, so make it a movement buff...

I don't think a straight movement buff is a good idea. But in stealth if they moved 10% faster that might be more desireable and i could see it happening. Magblades could superspeed with concealed weapon if they're khajiit. Just throwing it out there.

Drachdhar · February 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Drachdhar wrote: »

And something other than the nigh useless 3m reduction to stealth detection...
Khajiit are supposed to be quick, so make it a movement buff...

I don't think a straight movement buff is a good idea. But in stealth if they moved 10% faster that might be more desireable and i could see it happening. Magblades could superspeed with concealed weapon if they're khajiit. Just throwing it out there.

You already can... Vampire MagBlade. Makes you move 125%(+25% with Concealed Weapon) speed in stealth/cloak.

+10 Sprint Speed, like what Orc gets as ONE of their pinnacle racial ability effects.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

Drachdhar wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Drachdhar wrote: »

And something other than the nigh useless 3m reduction to stealth detection...
Khajiit are supposed to be quick, so make it a movement buff...

I don't think a straight movement buff is a good idea. But in stealth if they moved 10% faster that might be more desireable and i could see it happening. Magblades could superspeed with concealed weapon if they're khajiit. Just throwing it out there.

You already can... Vampire MagBlade. Makes you move 125%(+25% with Concealed Weapon) speed in stealth/cloak.

+10 Sprint Speed, like what Orc gets as ONE of their pinnacle racial ability effects.

I absolutely know you can move fast in stealth. But why not move even faster with racials? :P

Iskiab · February 2020

I was going to say I like the reduced detection radius, but sneak speed would be better.

Kolzki · February 2020

I can only assume that person who designed the new DLC’s Critical Riposte set isn’t a cat lover.

Casul · February 2020

Swap the 10% crit damage/crit healing to 10% more damage on targets below 25%/more healing on targets below 25% and it would be a lot more viable.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

Swap the 10% crit damage/crit healing to 10% more damage on targets below 25%/more healing on targets below 25% and it would be a lot more viable.

I like the crit idea personally.

Casul · February 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Swap the 10% crit damage/crit healing to 10% more damage on targets below 25%/more healing on targets below 25% and it would be a lot more viable.

I like the crit idea personally.

I get the original concept but I was thinking from a PvE DPS perspective. Crit does nothing for sets like relequen or velidreth (or Zaan, although this is more a stamina issue). And the crit healing is always good but I didn't want to split the passive like that. Thinking about it now I would actually make the healing passive 10% more healing on targets above 75% health as this is more viable then needing someone to be on the brink of death for the healing passive to matter.

Also in PvP this would make khajiit more of a threat the better they play. If they keep their HP up and drag your down it just gets easier to get the kill for them.

Kolzki · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Swap the 10% crit damage/crit healing to 10% more damage on targets below 25%/more healing on targets below 25% and it would be a lot more viable.

I like the crit idea personally.

I get the original concept but I was thinking from a PvE DPS perspective. Crit does nothing for sets like relequen or velidreth (or Zaan, although this is more a stamina issue). And the crit healing is always good but I didn't want to split the passive like that. Thinking about it now I would actually make the healing passive 10% more healing on targets above 75% health as this is more viable then needing someone to be on the brink of death for the healing passive to matter.

Also in PvP this would make khajiit more of a threat the better they play. If they keep their HP up and drag your down it just gets easier to get the kill for them.

From a pve necro perspective I basically already get those buffs at low health. I have the khajiit 10% crit damage bonus and I have 100% crit in execute. Most damage in execute comes from skills that can crit. What I would be losing is having a racial stat bonus for the other 75% of the target’s health.

From the perspective of my other khajiit chars on other classes, it just wouldn’t feel very khajiit. They’re the crit class. Always have been. Always should be.

Iskiab · February 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Swap the 10% crit damage/crit healing to 10% more damage on targets below 25%/more healing on targets below 25% and it would be a lot more viable.

I like the crit idea personally.

I get the original concept but I was thinking from a PvE DPS perspective. Crit does nothing for sets like relequen or velidreth (or Zaan, although this is more a stamina issue). And the crit healing is always good but I didn't want to split the passive like that. Thinking about it now I would actually make the healing passive 10% more healing on targets above 75% health as this is more viable then needing someone to be on the brink of death for the healing passive to matter.

Also in PvP this would make khajiit more of a threat the better they play. If they keep their HP up and drag your down it just gets easier to get the kill for them.

From a pve necro perspective I basically already get those buffs at low health. I have the khajiit 10% crit damage bonus and I have 100% crit in execute. Most damage in execute comes from skills that can crit. What I would be losing is having a racial stat bonus for the other 75% of the target’s health.

From the perspective of my other khajiit chars on other classes, it just wouldn’t feel very khajiit. They’re the crit class. Always have been. Always should be.

Yea, I agree too. Just plain ole crit would be best, it’s useful in pve and pvp, for healer and dps.

Right now in no-CP it’s almost impossible to make a crit build but stamblades can sorta make it work. Going back to crit would open up crit builds.

Changing it to sneak speed and crit would be awesome.

Drachdhar · February 2020

Yeh... Khajiit pinnacle racial is the only one that loses 20-40%(roughly, depending on build) effect by going no-CP... And it is an underwhelming pinnacle racial ability even with CP IMO.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

so, if they rounded up the resource and regens, what value would be reasonable to buff the crit damage to? 15%?

Iskiab · February 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

so, if they rounded up the resource and regens, what value would be reasonable to buff the crit damage to? 15%?

I think they should change it from crit mod to crit. As long as it’s crit mod and not crit there’ll always be a complaint that the passive isn’t good in no-CP. Better to one and done the change and make everyone happy.

agingerinohio · February 2020

Khajit and Bosmer need a rework.

Deathlord92 · February 2020

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Iskiab · February 2020

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

That would be pretty awesome, I played a Kerra in EQ and just like the aesthetic. I have so many toons I’d have chosen Khajit in a heartbeat but when I tried it the race just didn’t work in pvp. There’s enough of a difference that it effects performance a lot.

When you’re running around with 30% crit, crit mod just doesn’t cut it. If you try to pump your crit your other stats suffer too much. It’s much better in CP pvp, but I play a lot of BGs.

YandereGirlfriend · February 2020

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Absolutely not to choosing racial passives but great enthusiasm for your birthsign idea!

In one stroke, that would step up character customization as well as round out some of the main gripes that people have about races (e.g. why no Magicka bonus for Redguards, etc.) AND it would do it in the most Elder Scrolls way imaginable.

You'd probably have to nerf Mundus Stones a little bit to mitigate some of the power creep but I think overall that it would be a fantastic addition to the game.

Deathlord92 · February 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Absolutely not to choosing racial passives but great enthusiasm for your birthsign idea!

In one stroke, that would step up character customization as well as round out some of the main gripes that people have about races (e.g. why no Magicka bonus for Redguards, etc.) AND it would do it in the most Elder Scrolls way imaginable.

You'd probably have to nerf Mundus Stones a little bit to mitigate some of the power creep but I think overall that it would be a fantastic addition to the game.

Yup I’m all for birth signs picking racial passives however your right it’s a terrible idea as someone who loves Breton stamblade I just want something done 🙂

ExistingRug61 · February 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Absolutely not to choosing racial passives but great enthusiasm for your birthsign idea!

In one stroke, that would step up character customization as well as round out some of the main gripes that people have about races (e.g. why no Magicka bonus for Redguards, etc.) AND it would do it in the most Elder Scrolls way imaginable.

You'd probably have to nerf Mundus Stones a little bit to mitigate some of the power creep but I think overall that it would be a fantastic addition to the game.

But aren't the Mundus Stones effectively this games equivalent of birthsigns?
ie: we went from Birthsigns (Morrowind/Oblivion) -> Standing Stones (Skyrim) -> Mundus stones (ESO), all with the same set of names and similar conceptual bonuses.
The only difference is that your Mundus Stone can be changed at any time (good for customisation), however this means they don't feel like part of the character (bad for character identity).
Adding birthsigns would be somewhat redundant in that sense.

On the original topic though, while I don't mind the Khajiit racials I agree they are a little weak compared to some other races. While I wouldn't mind if the last bonus got changed to Crit Chance, personally I am happy with Crit Mod, as while this is potentially a bit weaker in no-CP, for me this is offset by the tri-stat and tri-regen being worth more to me in no-CP as I value off stat sustain in that environment more than CP where you get it for free. I just think the values are a little low.

Ideally, I would just like to see the stat and regen numbers increased a little, maybe crit mod as well. Optionally also change the reduced detection radius to increased sneak/stealth speed, and then give the reduced detection radius to Bosmers (that way both races get a unique sneaking bonus - Khajiit are faster but Bosmer can get closer).

John_Falstaff · February 2020

I don't think that sneak spead is a good idea; racial passives should be more or less universal, and this one is very niche. Orc speed, for example (beats me why they got speed instead of khajiits, to think of it) is useful everywhere, while sneaking speed would be mostly PvP and roleplaying gimmick. Not an example of a good racial passive design.

Old crit chance bonus was great both because it was in the spirit of the race and because it was opening leeway for build variety - khajiits weren't nailed with rusty nails to high crit builds, some niche sorc tank builds were viable. Now, khajiits are forced to build for high crit. There are probably just two races in the game that are pigeonholed into build choices like that. The sudden knee-jerk change from crit chance to crit damage was pure lunacy.

Vildebill · February 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I don't think that sneak spead is a good idea; racial passives should be more or less universal, and this one is very niche. Orc speed, for example (beats me why they got speed instead of khajiits, to think of it) is useful everywhere, while sneaking speed would be mostly PvP and roleplaying gimmick. Not an example of a good racial passive design.

Old crit chance bonus was great both because it was in the spirit of the race and because it was opening leeway for build variety - khajiits weren't nailed with rusty nails to high crit builds, some niche sorc tank builds were viable. Now, khajiits are forced to build for high crit. There are probably just two races in the game that are pigeonholed into build choices like that. The sudden knee-jerk change from crit chance to crit damage was pure lunacy.

This. Just change crit damage back to crit, tone it down to 7-8%, and Khajiit is most likely in a good place.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I don't think that sneak spead is a good idea; racial passives should be more or less universal, and this one is very niche. Orc speed, for example (beats me why they got speed instead of khajiits, to think of it) is useful everywhere, while sneaking speed would be mostly PvP and roleplaying gimmick. Not an example of a good racial passive design.

Old crit chance bonus was great both because it was in the spirit of the race and because it was opening leeway for build variety - khajiits weren't nailed with rusty nails to high crit builds, some niche sorc tank builds were viable. Now, khajiits are forced to build for high crit. There are probably just two races in the game that are pigeonholed into build choices like that. The sudden knee-jerk change from crit chance to crit damage was pure lunacy.

Why isn't sneak speed a good idea? It's supposed to be one of those little flavour racial benefits. It's far better than high elf's channeling damage reduction.