Khajiit racials still underwhelming?

John_Falstaff

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Why isn't sneak speed a good idea? It's supposed to be one of those little flavour racial benefits. It's far better than high elf's channeling damage reduction.

Because it's a disparity with other classes (ahem, orc, looking at you right now) where 'flavor' passive is actually useful in all practical gameplay, not just in PvP/RP. Races with such universally useful passive will always have an edge. So, it's either making those extra passives just a flavor thing, unaffecting competitive side, for all races - or giving all races the passive that would be universally useful. Granted, I don't see anything bad with either approach, but would have to nerf orc and give some meaningless flavor instead of speed. (Well, to be frank, orc is heavily overloaded with passives, so maybe this is the way.)

ESO_Nightingale

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Why isn't sneak speed a good idea? It's supposed to be one of those little flavour racial benefits. It's far better than high elf's channeling damage reduction.

Because it's a disparity with other classes (ahem, orc, looking at you right now) where 'flavor' passive is actually useful in all practical gameplay, not just in PvP/RP. Races with such universally useful passive will always have an edge. So, it's either making those extra passives just a flavor thing, unaffecting competitive side, for all races - or giving all races the passive that would be universally useful. Granted, I don't see anything bad with either approach, but would have to nerf orc and give some meaningless flavor instead of speed. (Well, to be frank, orc is heavily overloaded with passives, so maybe this is the way.)

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

John_Falstaff

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

Well... for one, I'm not counting high elf passives as exemplary passive design, that's one; and for another, 5% mitigation is only one part of this passive. The other part is off-stat regen, and this one, I consider universally useful - it's useful in PvP, it's useful in a lot of PvE content too - stamina uses magicka skills nowadays, and magicka always needs to run / dodge / break free. That's actually quite useful, I wouldn't turn down some stamina regen while in vMoS HM as magicka. Sneaking speed... I can't imagine being nearly as useful.

Iskiab

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

Well... for one, I'm not counting high elf passives as exemplary passive design, that's one; and for another, 5% mitigation is only one part of this passive. The other part is off-stat regen, and this one, I consider universally useful - it's useful in PvP, it's useful in a lot of PvE content too - stamina uses magicka skills nowadays, and magicka always needs to run / dodge / break free. That's actually quite useful, I wouldn't turn down some stamina regen while in vMoS HM as magicka. Sneaking speed... I can't imagine being nearly as useful.

True, but Altmer racial passives are great if you’re a magplar. Sneak speed might shoe horn Khajit into NB, but being sneaky does fit the khajit theme.

WrathOfInnos

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

so, if they rounded up the resource and regens, what value would be reasonable to buff the crit damage to? 15%?

15% is too much. 12% crit damage would be fine with rounded up resources.

YandereGirlfriend

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Absolutely not to choosing racial passives but great enthusiasm for your birthsign idea!

In one stroke, that would step up character customization as well as round out some of the main gripes that people have about races (e.g. why no Magicka bonus for Redguards, etc.) AND it would do it in the most Elder Scrolls way imaginable.

You'd probably have to nerf Mundus Stones a little bit to mitigate some of the power creep but I think overall that it would be a fantastic addition to the game.

But aren't the Mundus Stones effectively this games equivalent of birthsigns?
ie: we went from Birthsigns (Morrowind/Oblivion) -> Standing Stones (Skyrim) -> Mundus stones (ESO), all with the same set of names and similar conceptual bonuses.
The only difference is that your Mundus Stone can be changed at any time (good for customisation), however this means they don't feel like part of the character (bad for character identity).
Adding birthsigns would be somewhat redundant in that sense.

On the original topic though, while I don't mind the Khajiit racials I agree they are a little weak compared to some other races. While I wouldn't mind if the last bonus got changed to Crit Chance, personally I am happy with Crit Mod, as while this is potentially a bit weaker in no-CP, for me this is offset by the tri-stat and tri-regen being worth more to me in no-CP as I value off stat sustain in that environment more than CP where you get it for free. I just think the values are a little low.

Ideally, I would just like to see the stat and regen numbers increased a little, maybe crit mod as well. Optionally also change the reduced detection radius to increased sneak/stealth speed, and then give the reduced detection radius to Bosmers (that way both races get a unique sneaking bonus - Khajiit are faster but Bosmer can get closer).

Oblivion actually sets the template for what this system might look like.

There you had your character creation Birthsign as well as access to numerous Doom Stones (and other neat stones) scattered throughout Cyrodiil that you could choose to stack with your Birthsign and further augment your build.

It is also notable that in the age of One Tamriel that the Mundus Stones are still repeated 4x times (one in each alliance and in Cyrodiil). This no longer serves a purpose and you could greatly expand the character customization options granted by these stones by using the 3 sets of duplicate stones instead for unique bonuses.

John_Falstaff

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

Well... for one, I'm not counting high elf passives as exemplary passive design, that's one; and for another, 5% mitigation is only one part of this passive. The other part is off-stat regen, and this one, I consider universally useful - it's useful in PvP, it's useful in a lot of PvE content too - stamina uses magicka skills nowadays, and magicka always needs to run / dodge / break free. That's actually quite useful, I wouldn't turn down some stamina regen while in vMoS HM as magicka. Sneaking speed... I can't imagine being nearly as useful.

True, but Altmer racial passives are great if you’re a magplar. Sneak speed might shoe horn Khajit into NB, but being sneaky does fit the khajit theme.

My point was, it's not even that sneak spead shoehorns khajiits into NB, but it shoehorns khajiits into PvP NB. It's not really great when racial passives cater to just one side of the game, and not really big one at that, to be frank. Not everyone enjoys PvP; altmer passives are good for both PvP and PvE, orc ones too, but khajiits' sneak spead would only work for PvP side, and even then, only for certain builds. I don't think it's a good example of passive design. I'd say, if final passive should be 'flavor', let it be flavor for everyone, or else make it useful in all aspects of the game.

x48rph

Drachdhar wrote: »

3m less stealth detection radius, only really benefit Nightblades.

I'll trade you my bosmer's stealth detect :P
Khajiit sort of look like a jack of all trades imo (though I don't have any) They have a little of every stat but that doesn't really work that well in ESO where focusing on one is usually meta. There's probably a few niche crit builds that really work well but for most things, they just look meh. (not that racial passives make a huge difference but every little bit helps)

Iskiab

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

Well... for one, I'm not counting high elf passives as exemplary passive design, that's one; and for another, 5% mitigation is only one part of this passive. The other part is off-stat regen, and this one, I consider universally useful - it's useful in PvP, it's useful in a lot of PvE content too - stamina uses magicka skills nowadays, and magicka always needs to run / dodge / break free. That's actually quite useful, I wouldn't turn down some stamina regen while in vMoS HM as magicka. Sneaking speed... I can't imagine being nearly as useful.

True, but Altmer racial passives are great if you’re a magplar. Sneak speed might shoe horn Khajit into NB, but being sneaky does fit the khajit theme.

My point was, it's not even that sneak spead shoehorns khajiits into NB, but it shoehorns khajiits into PvP NB. It's not really great when racial passives cater to just one side of the game, and not really big one at that, to be frank. Not everyone enjoys PvP; altmer passives are good for both PvP and PvE, orc ones too, but khajiits' sneak spead would only work for PvP side, and even then, only for certain builds. I don't think it's a good example of passive design. I'd say, if final passive should be 'flavor', let it be flavor for everyone, or else make it useful in all aspects of the game.

Yea, you make a very good point.

ExistingRug61

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

If they just let us pick racial passives or add birth signs which I’d personally prefer it would solve everything.

Absolutely not to choosing racial passives but great enthusiasm for your birthsign idea!

In one stroke, that would step up character customization as well as round out some of the main gripes that people have about races (e.g. why no Magicka bonus for Redguards, etc.) AND it would do it in the most Elder Scrolls way imaginable.

You'd probably have to nerf Mundus Stones a little bit to mitigate some of the power creep but I think overall that it would be a fantastic addition to the game.

But aren't the Mundus Stones effectively this games equivalent of birthsigns?
ie: we went from Birthsigns (Morrowind/Oblivion) -> Standing Stones (Skyrim) -> Mundus stones (ESO), all with the same set of names and similar conceptual bonuses.
The only difference is that your Mundus Stone can be changed at any time (good for customisation), however this means they don't feel like part of the character (bad for character identity).
Adding birthsigns would be somewhat redundant in that sense.

On the original topic though, while I don't mind the Khajiit racials I agree they are a little weak compared to some other races. While I wouldn't mind if the last bonus got changed to Crit Chance, personally I am happy with Crit Mod, as while this is potentially a bit weaker in no-CP, for me this is offset by the tri-stat and tri-regen being worth more to me in no-CP as I value off stat sustain in that environment more than CP where you get it for free. I just think the values are a little low.

Ideally, I would just like to see the stat and regen numbers increased a little, maybe crit mod as well. Optionally also change the reduced detection radius to increased sneak/stealth speed, and then give the reduced detection radius to Bosmers (that way both races get a unique sneaking bonus - Khajiit are faster but Bosmer can get closer).

Oblivion actually sets the template for what this system might look like.

There you had your character creation Birthsign as well as access to numerous Doom Stones (and other neat stones) scattered throughout Cyrodiil that you could choose to stack with your Birthsign and further augment your build.

True, forgot about the doom stones. But still, it would be a bit redundant if they have to nerf something else to fit it in so it doesn't add to power creep. Like if Mundus effectivness got halved to allow birthsigns to be implemented and fill that gap, then most players would probably just double up on similar bonuses from Mundus and birthsign, which effectively would be no different to what they have currently, just they get it all from Mundus instead.
The only ways I could see it having the desired outcome are:
1) Nerf racials and allow birthsigns to fill that gap, as this would reduce the amount of bonuses that are locked in by race, and make some of that power budget customisable regardless of race.
2) Implement birthsigns as a completely new set of bonuses, and/or make them so they have some sort of tradeoff so that no existing system has to get nerfed to allow them in without adding to power creep.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i think stealth speed is far more useful over 5% Damage Mitigation on channeling/cast time abilities. I don't see how that high elf flavour passive is practical when you're playing something like a magden or magblade. Everyone reguardless of class or role can benefit from stealth speed even if it's just a small amount.

Well... for one, I'm not counting high elf passives as exemplary passive design, that's one; and for another, 5% mitigation is only one part of this passive. The other part is off-stat regen, and this one, I consider universally useful - it's useful in PvP, it's useful in a lot of PvE content too - stamina uses magicka skills nowadays, and magicka always needs to run / dodge / break free. That's actually quite useful, I wouldn't turn down some stamina regen while in vMoS HM as magicka. Sneaking speed... I can't imagine being nearly as useful.

True, but Altmer racial passives are great if you’re a magplar. Sneak speed might shoe horn Khajit into NB, but being sneaky does fit the khajit theme.

My point was, it's not even that sneak spead shoehorns khajiits into NB, but it shoehorns khajiits into PvP NB. It's not really great when racial passives cater to just one side of the game, and not really big one at that, to be frank. Not everyone enjoys PvP; altmer passives are good for both PvP and PvE, orc ones too, but khajiits' sneak spead would only work for PvP side, and even then, only for certain builds. I don't think it's a good example of passive design. I'd say, if final passive should be 'flavor', let it be flavor for everyone, or else make it useful in all aspects of the game.

I see your point regarding sneak speed. In some ways a more generic bonus would be better, ideally still athletic/speed based so maybe something like dodge roll cost reduction.
However, there definitely is a sector of the player base that like the specific racials, in particular sneak bonuses - the amount of comments when bosmer lost their sneak passive is an indication of this.

YandereGirlfriend

@ExistingRug61

You're right, stealing some of the racial "Level 50" bonuses would probably be the best way to implement the Birthsigns with as little inadvertent power creep as possible.

I do still think that clawing back the 75% of Mundus Stones that are redundant and replacing them with a wide array of niche bonuses would also be fantastic for the game. Give us Mundus Stones that increase Block% Mitigation, increase Cold Damage by X%, Increase Damage While Outnumbered, Convert Physical Light Attacks to Magic Damage, Increase Jump Height, etc. to really create some unique, Elder Scrolls-style builds.