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Khajiit racials still underwhelming?
Drachdhar
✭✭✭
Is it just me that find the racials for Khajiit underwhelming?
85 Mag and Stam Regen, 100 Health...
The 825 boost to stats...
10% extra crit damage is nice, but hardly a reliable buff... unless you have a very crit centric build.
3m less stealth detection radius, only really benefit Nightblades.
Quite frankly IMO, I think the numbers are slightly to low. It just feels like the Khajiit dont really excel at anything and there's a race option that is better no matter what build you're looking to make. It's kinda arguable if the 10% crit dmg is as valuable as the extra damage many races get, and the stealth bonus is a whole lot less valuable than the extras other races get to their final racial.
The regen is not quite high enough to really make a difference... same with the stats.
It may just be me thinking this... But I very very rarely see Khajiit recommended for builds unless its a heavily crit-centric build. Whereas most other races feature heavily, especially Wood Elves, Orcs, Nords and Bretons. And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
85 Mag and Stam Regen, 100 Health...
The 825 boost to stats...
10% extra crit damage is nice, but hardly a reliable buff... unless you have a very crit centric build.
3m less stealth detection radius, only really benefit Nightblades.
Quite frankly IMO, I think the numbers are slightly to low. It just feels like the Khajiit dont really excel at anything and there's a race option that is better no matter what build you're looking to make. It's kinda arguable if the 10% crit dmg is as valuable as the extra damage many races get, and the stealth bonus is a whole lot less valuable than the extras other races get to their final racial.
The regen is not quite high enough to really make a difference... same with the stats.
It may just be me thinking this... But I very very rarely see Khajiit recommended for builds unless its a heavily crit-centric build. Whereas most other races feature heavily, especially Wood Elves, Orcs, Nords and Bretons. And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
9
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
This is the jack of all trades race, Dark Elf is just good for stam/mag dps, not really as good for tank/healer. I think back when the DPS tests for the races were being done with Wrathstone, Khajiit was around 4% and Orc was like 6%, so not a huge difference.2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
This is the jack of all trades race, Dark Elf is just good for stam/mag dps, not really as good for tank/healer. I think back when the DPS tests for the races were being done with Wrathstone, Khajiit was around 4% and Orc was like 6%, so not a huge difference.
That was in PvE trial settings, and trials focus on crit. Compare them on the regular dummy without trial buffs and the gap is a lot bigger.
Yea, Khajit is underwhelming, it definitely needs a buff. I like the aesthetic so usually start as a Khajit, then I feel underpowered and switch.
I think the only class that can really make it work is stamblade.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten4 -
Drachdhar✭✭✭Going of memory here, so numbers may be a bit wrong... but lets compare Khajiit and Orc for instance with racial ability value.
Orc:
2k extra stamina, that equates to roughly 200 wpn damage and more skill usage.
1k extra health and on top of that an ability which equates to 300 health regen.
258 extra wpn damage, 12% Sprint Cost reduction(equates to 19CPs) and 10% Sprint Speed... Thats the effect of 19 CPs and the effect of more than a total of 1.5 Mundus Stones... More than the wpn damage of the Warrior and added to that the sprint speed of the Steed.
Khajiit:
85 extra stam and mag regen and a 100 extra health regen... Well, the total regen is pretty nice. Buuut, getting 258 extra regen to one stat is alot better than getting a small sum to all.
825 to all stats... the lesser tier racial of dark elves adds 3750 total to stats compared to the 2475 of a higher racial tier skill.
10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone. 3m less on the stealth detection radius... Completely negliable for anything but medium armor nightblades, and not a whole lot to hurrah for even then. Its maybe two steps difference, 3 in medium armor.
So, in conclusion. Even the top tier racial skill of Khajiit is worth less than a third of the top tier racial of the Orc. And the mid tier skill is also worth less than the Orcs and even the Dunmers least tier racial. And the Khajiits least tier racial is nigh negliable.
All in all, I think Khajiit has the worst racial skills in the game, by far.7 -
Khajiit's should take no fall damage. We are giant felines after all. could be useful in pvp at least.4 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭750 primary resource + 85 primary recovery + 10% critical damage is pretty good. The 10% crit damage is the best, especially in PvP where bonus crit damage bites into impen. It's fun seeing 11k Dark Flare crits in battlegrounds!!
If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
10% crit damage might be worth the first 23 points of CP, but that also means it's worth the next like 40 in that same star, right?
I love khajiit and would love a racial buff!! But think they're in a good spot right now. Maybe a bonus to the recovery passive would be nice
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....PC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner0 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭In my opinion, Argonian and Khajit racials have always been meh in Elder Scrolls games (at least going back to ES 3, 4, and 5).3 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭Idk about you guys but I'm quite satisfied with the passives. And literally all my chars mag, stam and healers are khajiit ;-)
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.5 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »Idk about you guys but I'm quite satisfied with the passives. And literally all my chars mag, stam and healers are khajiit ;-)
And thats exactly why they're racials are good as they are, jack of all trades, master of none. Can't expect it to be top stam dps race and then expect it to be great at healing too.
If anything, I'd just like to see a little more regen on Khajiit and Wood Elf. The issue is ZOS values regen == damage. This is not the case. 258 weapon damage from Orc is much better than 258 stam regen from wood elf.
Magicka regen at least works when you block, etc, so the stat carries more value imo.
I think the ratio should be more similar to how they handle Health vs Stam/Magicka which seems to be about 1.1 to 1.2 times stronger on set bonuses. They half ass this stat bonus on HP Reg vs Stam/Mag Reg too. The ratio for that seems to be up in the air with sets like Troll King 2piece giving 1500, Beekeeper 5 piece giving 400 and 3 piece set giving 600. HP regen is also aquired as a free bonus on Gold food/drinks.
They had this in mind when they made the Regen for Khajiit, but 85 vs 100 is extremely low. HP Regens ratio should be something like 1.5 to 1.6 times more than Damage.
So for starters, I'd like to see that standard updated so Regen is more valuable.1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Argonian racials are close to the best in the game, comparing them to Khajit is ridiculous.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Drachdhar✭✭✭tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....
200% crit damage... I hope you dont mean +200% crit damage. Because I think that is impossible.
10% extra crit damage is very low for a top tier racial ability. As I've said before, it's not even equal to the effect of one Mundus Stone. Most races get the equivalent of two Mundus Stones as their top racial ability.
Add to that, I dont think there is any other race which will have their top racial ability lose on average 25-30% effectiveness for going into battlegrounds or a noCP campaign.
(Not talking optimal crit build atm, which Khajiit would possibly be best for)... If your char is say an Orc. Orc weapon bonus damage is already worth more than the Warrior Mundus, you want some more crit damage then take on the Shadow Mundus.
Now you have both a higher crit damage and a higher weapon damage than a Khajiit with the Warrior Mundus.
Add to that you get the better total stat boost and a better total regen if in combat, and added to that extra mobility.
If going by what you have to do to get the equivalent of other top tier racial abilities, Khajiit Crit Damage Bonus should be closer to 20%... which I am not advocating btw.
As for Argonian racials... Well, that would be another topic entirely.
//By top tier racial I mean the latest, and most powerful, racial ability you get access to... To clear any confusion.
3 -
Drachdhar✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
This is the jack of all trades race, Dark Elf is just good for stam/mag dps, not really as good for tank/healer. I think back when the DPS tests for the races were being done with Wrathstone, Khajiit was around 4% and Orc was like 6%, so not a huge difference.
Dark Elf IMO is better for both healer and tank... 800 extra health on a tank is negliable. Better to have more fire resist and burning immunity, given how common fire is as a damage type. And more magicka and stamina is always useful, since it translates into higher heals and damage and more ability usage.3 -
bakthi✭✭✭Best racial passives for thievery and murder, which is why I made my TG/DB character a Khajiit NB. Out of 10 races, probably all of them don't have to be designed for leaderboards.Army of me:CP810+: Breton Templar healer, Redguard stamina Warden, Imperial DK tank, Altmer magicka Sorceror, Orc stamina Sorceror/werewolf, Nord Necromancer tank, Khajit TG/DB Nightblade, Bosmer stamina Necromancer, Argonian Warden healer, Dunmer magicka DK, Nord Nightblade tank
Second account, CP400+: Breton magicka Warden, Nord Nightblade healer/solo vampire, Bosmer stamina Templar/werewolf, Dunmer magicka Necromancer, Orc stamina DK, Argonian Warden tank1 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »And for a jack-of-all trades race, Dark Elf is generally superior.
This is the jack of all trades race, Dark Elf is just good for stam/mag dps, not really as good for tank/healer. I think back when the DPS tests for the races were being done with Wrathstone, Khajiit was around 4% and Orc was like 6%, so not a huge difference.
Dark Elf IMO is better for both healer and tank... 800 extra health on a tank is negliable. Better to have more fire resist and burning immunity, given how common fire is as a damage type. And more magicka and stamina is always useful, since it translates into higher heals and damage and more ability usage.
yeah cuz 2 percen reduction matters much.
no need to glorify dark elves. if people wanna min max they gonna choose ork breton.
being able to switch is irrelevant to most minmaxers0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....
200% crit damage... I hope you dont mean +200% crit damage. Because I think that is impossible.
10% extra crit damage is very low for a top tier racial ability. As I've said before, it's not even equal to the effect of one Mundus Stone. Most races get the equivalent of two Mundus Stones as their top racial ability.
Add to that, I dont think there is any other race which will have their top racial ability lose on average 25-30% effectiveness for going into battlegrounds or a noCP campaign.
(Not talking optimal crit build atm, which Khajiit would possibly be best for)... If your char is say an Orc. Orc weapon bonus damage is already worth more than the Warrior Mundus, you want some more crit damage then take on the Shadow Mundus.
Now you have both a higher crit damage and a higher weapon damage than a Khajiit with the Warrior Mundus.
Add to that you get the better total stat boost and a better total regen if in combat, and added to that extra mobility.
If going by what you have to do to get the equivalent of other top tier racial abilities, Khajiit Crit Damage Bonus should be closer to 20%... which I am not advocating btw.
As for Argonian racials... Well, that would be another topic entirely.
//By top tier racial I mean the latest, and most powerful, racial ability you get access to... To clear any confusion.
I think they mean 200% crit damage as in crits do over 200% of a non-crit which is pretty common. The base crit damage is 150% of a non-crit, Shadow brings this up to 169%, 66 Elfborn increases that to 191%, add Minor Force for 201%, and half the classes have 10% as a passive for 211%. Major Force is another 15%, but the only time you’ll see full uptime is on a raid target dummy. To be reasonable we can say max 60% uptime on this making total crit damage 220%. Now add the Khajiit passive and this can hit 230%.
The problem is that Khajiit crits don’t hit 10% harder than other races (if they did it would be very powerful). They hit 230/220 = 4.5% stronger. So even if you make a full crit build with 100% Crit Chance the back you can’t get more gain than this, and for most builds it is 3-4% DPS.
Orc, Altmer, and Dunmer all get 258 weapon or Spell Damage as well as 1.2k more primary resource than Khajiit, this works out to about 6% more base damage on every skill (crit or noncrit). And since 6% is more than 4.5%, Orc and Elf crits will still hit higher than Khajiit crits. So even on a 100% Crit Chance build, Khajiit is not the best race. Add in the fact that on most builds not every hit is a crit, and Khajiit falls noticeably behind other races for DPS.
You could say they have off-resource sustain you justify it, but so does Altmer. You could say they get some Max Health, but Orc gets more. You could say their off-stat resource pool is larger, but not nearly as large as Dunmer’s. Khajiit is a strange jack of all trades that ends up weaker than anything else. The 85 primary regen and 100 health regen do not make up for the lower damage.Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 14, 2020 11:10PM7 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My Khajiit is my crafter so I don't have much insight into how their bonuses stack up to races that I actually play.
That said, I think it would be far more interesting to give them a 10% Critical CHANCE bonus instead of the Critical Damage bonus.
That would open up a lot of different build options to Khajiits as they wouldn't be as shackled to Mother's Sorrow, etc. for PvE DPS. Critical Chance is also valuable for Healers, so it would keep with their jack-of-most trades theming.
Their bonus is also uninteresting because it is already found in the Class Kit of both Templars and Nightblades (and, as noted, is weaker than the Shadow Mundus).3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »My Khajiit is my crafter so I don't have much insight into how their bonuses stack up to races that I actually play.
That said, I think it would be far more interesting to give them a 10% Critical CHANCE bonus instead of the Critical Damage bonus.
That would open up a lot of different build options to Khajiits as they wouldn't be as shackled to Mother's Sorrow, etc. for PvE DPS. Critical Chance is also valuable for Healers, so it would keep with their jack-of-most trades theming.
Their bonus is also uninteresting because it is already found in the Class Kit of both Templars and Nightblades (and, as noted, is weaker than the Shadow Mundus).
10% crit chance is too high, they would be the meta for every DPS then. 7-8% Crit Chance would be good, and balance them with other races. This almost happened during the race rebalance on PTS, but people overreacted to Khajiit becoming competitive and they got reduced to the current weak state.
Edit: To be more specific. I believe simply changing the Khajiit crit damage to 8% would make them balanced with other races. Alternatively they could round the tri-stat resource bonus from 825 to 1000 (since tri-stat bonuses are typically 50% the magnitude of single stat, and other races get 2000 primary resource), the tri-stat regen bonus from 85 to 100, and make the crit damage into 7% crit chance. These 2 options are very similar, since 175 primary resource + 15 primary regen is approximately equal to 1% crit for DPS builds.Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 15, 2020 5:15AM2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭i don't know a lot about this topic, but yeah what i think they need to do is round up the max stats to 1000 and the regens to 100 as well. and maybe boost the crit damage a little bit if needed, but the rounding up might be enough? Just enough so that the race is useful in some builds, but not all of them, I don't want a mass exodus for all builds to become Khajiit like it was going to be during wrathstone pts. Khajiit is close to other dps races, so it doesn't need much. But i really think it should be the main race for higher crit builds.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on February 15, 2020 10:07AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭Right, so underwhelming, that high-end level players choose them mostly for DPS and tank. They are the only ones, who have one choice other than dagger for dual wield.You reveal yourself best in how you play.
Kelces - Argonian Templar
Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
Jurupari - Argonian Warden
Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
PC - EU
For the Pact!2 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....
200% crit damage... I hope you dont mean +200% crit damage. Because I think that is impossible.
10% extra crit damage is very low for a top tier racial ability. As I've said before, it's not even equal to the effect of one Mundus Stone. Most races get the equivalent of two Mundus Stones as their top racial ability.
Add to that, I dont think there is any other race which will have their top racial ability lose on average 25-30% effectiveness for going into battlegrounds or a noCP campaign.
(Not talking optimal crit build atm, which Khajiit would possibly be best for)... If your char is say an Orc. Orc weapon bonus damage is already worth more than the Warrior Mundus, you want some more crit damage then take on the Shadow Mundus.
Now you have both a higher crit damage and a higher weapon damage than a Khajiit with the Warrior Mundus.
Add to that you get the better total stat boost and a better total regen if in combat, and added to that extra mobility.
If going by what you have to do to get the equivalent of other top tier racial abilities, Khajiit Crit Damage Bonus should be closer to 20%... which I am not advocating btw.
As for Argonian racials... Well, that would be another topic entirely.
//By top tier racial I mean the latest, and most powerful, racial ability you get access to... To clear any confusion.
I think they mean 200% crit damage as in crits do over 200% of a non-crit which is pretty common. The base crit damage is 150% of a non-crit, Shadow brings this up to 169%, 66 Elfborn increases that to 191%, add Minor Force for 201%, and half the classes have 10% as a passive for 211%. Major Force is another 15%, but the only time you’ll see full uptime is on a raid target dummy. To be reasonable we can say max 60% uptime on this making total crit damage 220%. Now add the Khajiit passive and this can hit 230%.
The problem is that Khajiit crits don’t hit 10% harder than other races (if they did it would be very powerful). They hit 230/220 = 4.5% stronger. So even if you make a full crit build with 100% Crit Chance the back you can’t get more gain than this, and for most builds it is 3-4% DPS.
Orc, Altmer, and Dunmer all get 258 weapon or Spell Damage as well as 1.2k more primary resource than Khajiit, this works out to about 6% more base damage on every skill (crit or noncrit). And since 6% is more than 4.5%, Orc and Elf crits will still hit higher than Khajiit crits. So even on a 100% Crit Chance build, Khajiit is not the best race. Add in the fact that on most builds not every hit is a crit, and Khajiit falls noticeably behind other races for DPS.
You could say they have off-resource sustain you justify it, but so does Altmer. You could say they get some Max Health, but Orc gets more. You could say their off-stat resource pool is larger, but not nearly as large as Dunmer’s. Khajiit is a strange jack of all trades that ends up weaker than anything else. The 85 primary regen and 100 health regen do not make up for the lower damage.
Thanks for a solid response--all true. The only additional case is in PvP, where stacking +10% critical damage with Shadow Mundus can buff crit damage pretty high, thanks to how Crit Resistance works. So buffing the crit damage bonus could allow players to stack too much of it and eat through too much crit resistance.
Another point in comparing these racial bonuses to Mundus Stones is that most stats like Weapon Damage can be further increased by percent modifiers (ie +20% from Major Brutality), but critical damage can't. 10% is JUST 10%.
Maybe increase the Max Stam, Magicka, and Health to 1000, and the Stam, Magicka, and Health recovery to 100? Or like others said, a small crit chance bonus (5%?)
I'd like something more for Khajiit since I love playing them, but right now they're a hybrid race with a unique racial bonus that's viable in all content—I'll settle for that. Better than some well-intended change that makes them worsePC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....
200% crit damage... I hope you dont mean +200% crit damage. Because I think that is impossible.
10% extra crit damage is very low for a top tier racial ability. As I've said before, it's not even equal to the effect of one Mundus Stone. Most races get the equivalent of two Mundus Stones as their top racial ability.
Add to that, I dont think there is any other race which will have their top racial ability lose on average 25-30% effectiveness for going into battlegrounds or a noCP campaign.
(Not talking optimal crit build atm, which Khajiit would possibly be best for)... If your char is say an Orc. Orc weapon bonus damage is already worth more than the Warrior Mundus, you want some more crit damage then take on the Shadow Mundus.
Now you have both a higher crit damage and a higher weapon damage than a Khajiit with the Warrior Mundus.
Add to that you get the better total stat boost and a better total regen if in combat, and added to that extra mobility.
If going by what you have to do to get the equivalent of other top tier racial abilities, Khajiit Crit Damage Bonus should be closer to 20%... which I am not advocating btw.
As for Argonian racials... Well, that would be another topic entirely.
//By top tier racial I mean the latest, and most powerful, racial ability you get access to... To clear any confusion.
I think they mean 200% crit damage as in crits do over 200% of a non-crit which is pretty common. The base crit damage is 150% of a non-crit, Shadow brings this up to 169%, 66 Elfborn increases that to 191%, add Minor Force for 201%, and half the classes have 10% as a passive for 211%. Major Force is another 15%, but the only time you’ll see full uptime is on a raid target dummy. To be reasonable we can say max 60% uptime on this making total crit damage 220%. Now add the Khajiit passive and this can hit 230%.
The problem is that Khajiit crits don’t hit 10% harder than other races (if they did it would be very powerful). They hit 230/220 = 4.5% stronger. So even if you make a full crit build with 100% Crit Chance the back you can’t get more gain than this, and for most builds it is 3-4% DPS.
Orc, Altmer, and Dunmer all get 258 weapon or Spell Damage as well as 1.2k more primary resource than Khajiit, this works out to about 6% more base damage on every skill (crit or noncrit). And since 6% is more than 4.5%, Orc and Elf crits will still hit higher than Khajiit crits. So even on a 100% Crit Chance build, Khajiit is not the best race. Add in the fact that on most builds not every hit is a crit, and Khajiit falls noticeably behind other races for DPS.
You could say they have off-resource sustain you justify it, but so does Altmer. You could say they get some Max Health, but Orc gets more. You could say their off-stat resource pool is larger, but not nearly as large as Dunmer’s. Khajiit is a strange jack of all trades that ends up weaker than anything else. The 85 primary regen and 100 health regen do not make up for the lower damage.
Thanks for a solid response--all true. The only additional case is in PvP, where stacking +10% critical damage with Shadow Mundus can buff crit damage pretty high, thanks to how Crit Resistance works. So buffing the crit damage bonus could allow players to stack too much of it and eat through too much crit resistance.
Another point in comparing these racial bonuses to Mundus Stones is that most stats like Weapon Damage can be further increased by percent modifiers (ie +20% from Major Brutality), but critical damage can't. 10% is JUST 10%.
Maybe increase the Max Stam, Magicka, and Health to 1000, and the Stam, Magicka, and Health recovery to 100? Or like others said, a small crit chance bonus (5%?)
I'd like something more for Khajiit since I love playing them, but right now they're a hybrid race with a unique racial bonus that's viable in all content—I'll settle for that. Better than some well-intended change that makes them worse
I think increasing the bonuses to 1000 or even 1250, and regen to 100 or 125 would be a good start, from there do nothing or take further action if needed.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on February 15, 2020 2:11PMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX4 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »If you have 200% critical damage (Shadow + minor force + CP) with 50% crit rate (low for PvE), the 10% critical damage boost is a straight 2.5% damage increase.10% Extra Crit Damage. Is nice I guess. Not very reliable since it relies on rng to get the bonus. Worth 23 CPs and not even the effect of one Mundus Stone.
Isn't it reliable enough in PvE with normal/"meta" crit rates due to the amount of damage sources evening it out over time?
Meanwhile ... Argonian racials .....
200% crit damage... I hope you dont mean +200% crit damage. Because I think that is impossible.
10% extra crit damage is very low for a top tier racial ability. As I've said before, it's not even equal to the effect of one Mundus Stone. Most races get the equivalent of two Mundus Stones as their top racial ability.
Add to that, I dont think there is any other race which will have their top racial ability lose on average 25-30% effectiveness for going into battlegrounds or a noCP campaign.
(Not talking optimal crit build atm, which Khajiit would possibly be best for)... If your char is say an Orc. Orc weapon bonus damage is already worth more than the Warrior Mundus, you want some more crit damage then take on the Shadow Mundus.
Now you have both a higher crit damage and a higher weapon damage than a Khajiit with the Warrior Mundus.
Add to that you get the better total stat boost and a better total regen if in combat, and added to that extra mobility.
If going by what you have to do to get the equivalent of other top tier racial abilities, Khajiit Crit Damage Bonus should be closer to 20%... which I am not advocating btw.
As for Argonian racials... Well, that would be another topic entirely.
//By top tier racial I mean the latest, and most powerful, racial ability you get access to... To clear any confusion.
I think they mean 200% crit damage as in crits do over 200% of a non-crit which is pretty common. The base crit damage is 150% of a non-crit, Shadow brings this up to 169%, 66 Elfborn increases that to 191%, add Minor Force for 201%, and half the classes have 10% as a passive for 211%. Major Force is another 15%, but the only time you’ll see full uptime is on a raid target dummy. To be reasonable we can say max 60% uptime on this making total crit damage 220%. Now add the Khajiit passive and this can hit 230%.
The problem is that Khajiit crits don’t hit 10% harder than other races (if they did it would be very powerful). They hit 230/220 = 4.5% stronger. So even if you make a full crit build with 100% Crit Chance the back you can’t get more gain than this, and for most builds it is 3-4% DPS.
Orc, Altmer, and Dunmer all get 258 weapon or Spell Damage as well as 1.2k more primary resource than Khajiit, this works out to about 6% more base damage on every skill (crit or noncrit). And since 6% is more than 4.5%, Orc and Elf crits will still hit higher than Khajiit crits. So even on a 100% Crit Chance build, Khajiit is not the best race. Add in the fact that on most builds not every hit is a crit, and Khajiit falls noticeably behind other races for DPS.
You could say they have off-resource sustain you justify it, but so does Altmer. You could say they get some Max Health, but Orc gets more. You could say their off-stat resource pool is larger, but not nearly as large as Dunmer’s. Khajiit is a strange jack of all trades that ends up weaker than anything else. The 85 primary regen and 100 health regen do not make up for the lower damage.
Thanks for a solid response--all true. The only additional case is in PvP, where stacking +10% critical damage with Shadow Mundus can buff crit damage pretty high, thanks to how Crit Resistance works. So buffing the crit damage bonus could allow players to stack too much of it and eat through too much crit resistance.
Another point in comparing these racial bonuses to Mundus Stones is that most stats like Weapon Damage can be further increased by percent modifiers (ie +20% from Major Brutality), but critical damage can't. 10% is JUST 10%.
Maybe increase the Max Stam, Magicka, and Health to 1000, and the Stam, Magicka, and Health recovery to 100? Or like others said, a small crit chance bonus (5%?)
I'd like something more for Khajiit since I love playing them, but right now they're a hybrid race with a unique racial bonus that's viable in all content—I'll settle for that. Better than some well-intended change that makes them worse
I think increasing the bonuses to 1000 or even 1250, and regen to 100 or 125 would be a good start, from there do nothing or take further action if needed.
Agreed. Crit mod is good for pve, where Khajit suffers is pvp because crit is so hard to come by in a good build. You can make something work in CP pvp, but in no-CP crit is way too low for it to be useful.Edited by Iskiab on February 15, 2020 2:13PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Aztlan✭✭✭✭A lot of good suggestions here. In every thread on this topic, someone suggests that being a jack-of-all-trades should be a satisfying benefit. It's not. I want khajiit to be a competitive dps race, period.4 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A lot of good suggestions here. In every thread on this topic, someone suggests that being a jack-of-all-trades should be a satisfying benefit. It's not. I want khajiit to be a competitive dps race, period.
yeah i want it to be a race that can fit viably into different niche builds. specifically crit, because that's the direction we want to go with frost damage.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭A lot of good suggestions here. In every thread on this topic, someone suggests that being a jack-of-all-trades should be a satisfying benefit. It's not. I want khajiit to be a competitive dps race, period.
It’s not really a good jack of all trades race either. It’s best for dps, and worse in other areas. There are no tank crit builds and healer crit builds work but people wear support sets instead.
If you want a jack of all trades race go nord, argonian or dark elf.Edited by Iskiab on February 15, 2020 2:46PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wouldn't be my first concern as far as racials go. Bosmer and Argonians are worse off currently, and Orcs are still massively overloaded. Nord should have a viable path as a DPS race as well. But if those are ever addressed, Khajiit certainly deserve another look, too. IMO their original crit chance bonus was better than crit damage done.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
Drachdhar✭✭✭Yup... Crit bonus is far more useful than crit damage. After all, need to land those crits to even get a use out of that bonus.0
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El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Khajiit took a beating when they re-did racials a few years back. They and Dark Elf used to be great PVE DPS options, with Khajiit being arguably the best for stamina crit builds. Now they are almost strictly relegated to the PVP realm where you can take advantage of their pseudo-hybrid traits. Really a shame. I miss my PVE stamblade kitty.1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would have to disagree. For pure dps builds, 85 regen, 825 max resource plus health, and 10% crit damage is amazing. The overall stat budget is also quite good. Khajit are low key one of the best races out there. The crit damage is huge for dps, and crit damage is a lot harder to get from gear than stamina or weapon damage.
For tanks and healers they may not be the best.Edited by Stx on February 18, 2020 8:15PM1 -
Aztlan✭✭✭✭Yeah, 10% crit damage sounds good, but testing has revealed that khajiit fall short of other races for PvE DPS. That passive needs a buff.5
