Off-balance changes and toppling charge

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

With all those changes everybody forgot about toppling charge

Can we have some additional effect on it when target is immune to off-balance?

Many consider this ability OP, but it is easily blocked and main advantage of it was off-balance status, which can then be used for stun with med-heavy attack or simply heavy attack to restore resources. I feel like magicka sorcerer might became too powerful against templars with this change. As for now it usually goes like this:
- I throw poison injection, potl and start to jab
- Magsorc streaks and stuns me
- I break free and toppling charge on magsorc. Stun is blocked in 95% of cases
- I then perform fully charged heavy attack to restore stamina spent on break free or jabs into med-heavy attack into onslaught - depending on circumstances
- All this time magsorc spams curses and eleweapon light attacks dealing considerable damage, which I can counter only with own pressure - relying on off-balance
- Rinse repeat for minutes until game bugs out or somebody interrupts us

Now without off-balance I don't see any way to counter streak spam. This is less of an issue in CP, but in no-CP without off-balance it will be impossible to sustain break free from unblockable stun on cooldown.

Olupajmibanan · February 2020

What the actual f you are saying? I can't even touch a decent templar with my magsorc. Haunting Curse + Endless Fury, both cleansed on one Cleansing Ritual cast. Crystal Fragments, rolldodgeable and blockable. What am I left with? Oh yeah, Crushing Shock spam. I would gladly meet templars that die to Crushing Shock spam only.

Templars are the reason I stopped playing magsorc entirely. On demand 5 effects cleanse is very strong against classes that rely on purgeable effects.

Joy_Division · February 2020

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

usmguy1234 · February 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Neoauspex · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Will trade for Streak.

Elwendryll · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

ku5h · February 2020

Complaining you'll get blocked by a class that utilizes block the least.
If you said you'll have problems with DKs, Wardens or Templars, sure, but when you tell magSorc will block your charges....cmon, just make a sorc nerf tread and be done with it.

hakan · February 2020

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

if that was the case then the rest wouldnt be bare bones skills.

this skill is next

Stibbons · February 2020

Toppling charge needs buffing now.

usmguy1234 · February 2020

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

If we could go back in time roughly 2-3 years toppling being overloaded wouldn't even be a discussion, even at its current state but now after years of the devs gutting skills, it's absolutely overloaded. It's not even really a point worth arguing. Also, please do yourself a favor a put the blame squarely on the devs shoulders. A majority of the players, myself included, never wanted the combat to be as watered down as it is currently.

Joy_Division · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

If we could go back in time roughly 2-3 years toppling being overloaded wouldn't even be a discussion, even at its current state but now after years of the devs gutting skills, it's absolutely overloaded. It's not even really a point worth arguing. Also, please do yourself a favor a put the blame squarely on the devs shoulders. A majority of the players, myself included, never wanted the combat to be as watered down as it is currently.

How else is ZOS supposed to take your comment above of "Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait."?

You are clearly suggesting that the skill is over-performing, is a problem that needs to be addressed, and after 5+ years we know what that means: devs gutting skills and watering down the abilities and combat.

We got water-down combat because of all sorts of PvP whining, whether that's explicit screams to nerf abilities or insinuations that one particular class/skill does too much (and are so desperate to include a passives). Or is someone going to try and convince me is was the NPC mobs and raid bosses who advocated for the ZOS standard that mutli-functional skills (such as stun and damage) should be separated, or that ultiamtes needed a cast-time, or Blastbones had to go an entire year [!] just derping around after a cast?

It is worth arguing because the philosophy of "it's overloaded, nerf now!" is precisely why ESO has and had zero direction from the devs except for constantly reacting to PvP complaints. Or the community making fun of a new set by nerfing Ice-heart. The devs are totally reactionary.

CynicK · February 2020

OP hardly I did not know how many times i pushed block and it was not blocked I am actually unsure that if it can actually be blocked, I will believe you but i still have my doubt and I had to change my spamable in one char to something that did not had a cast time because of it, you forgot the interrupt.
To start with, usually skills do not have so many effects.
Well as i see it you now will be able to do as many heavy attacks to the target to recover stamina as you want during the seven seconds it lasts because the effect is not consumed so you will have to wait 8 seconds after the off-balance ends to recharge your stamina, it does not look like such a big deal to me because then you can heavy attack as much as you want getting more damage from the heavy attacks plus stamina. Well it will be more difficult to time with your charge the off balance because cc immunity lasts 6 seconds but i see you had 2 chances to stun the target what makes me just more outraged.

ecru · February 2020

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

A lot of other classes would love to have abilities that do all of those things, but only Templars continue to complain when they already have abilities that do twice as many things as everyone else's.

Siohwenoeht · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

A lot of other classes would love to have abilities that do all of those things, but only Templars continue to complain when they already have abilities that do twice as many things as everyone else's.

Back before they nerfed the other classes down to Templar level, Templars had been bottom of the heap for at least two years. During that time, I still played my Templar and still had success, not because the class is inherently "overloaded" but that I sat down and thought my own build out to get what I needed out of class skills, guild skills and weapon skills.

I think far too many people follow "meta" or YouTube builds and don't ever make the jump to figuring out how to make a character work on their own. (That's not to say those builds don't have a place, as they provide a great starting point in character creation.)

People then base their experience off of "I have x streamer/content creators build, why am I not wiping everyone off the map?" and call for nerfs or call out cheating when they run into a well theorycrafted build that has little to do with what is meta.

Neoauspex · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

A lot of other classes would love to have abilities that do all of those things, but only Templars continue to complain when they already have abilities that do twice as many things as everyone else's.

Will trade for Streak

CynicK · February 2020

Yes but there was a lot of my templar cannot compete with light armor and a staff up close against lets say a dragonknight, nerf dk and his spamable dizzy swing, here we are, the debs made that possible by nerfing everything people asked to be nerfed, now I do not see why those same templars should now not see the nerf hammer strike their habilities i do not see why someone equiped with light armor that mitigates less damage and a staff that has lower spell damage than a 2-h should win hands down when charging, but the charge alone is a total mess for the other player, I agree that Puncturing Sweep has to have higher damage than a ranged attack but staff has lower weapon damage anyway so they should get less damage over all.
Well the off balance issue does not seems they have thought as how it interacts with skills and sets when they made the change and now are improvising, it affects me too on my dk with dizzy swing but i will get an stun evey 22 seconds instead of every 6 like is normal but I use it more to recharge resources than for the stun so the snare will work quite well for me to connect those heavy attacks, and my warden just gets his parrot attack ultra nerfed that i had been trying in bg and on some people with a lot of healing so the parrot helped actually kill some of them now with a window of 7 seconds where he can get bleeds and then another of 15 where his parrot is nothing just an underwhelming parrot, I think they have not thought about those things because there is no change at all in cutting dive and I would say it is not their intent at all to nerf templars just they did not thought of it, and it is another nerf to dizzy swing that after it sets enemies off-balance they would have to nerf off-balance.

Iskiab · February 2020

CynicK wrote: »

Yes but there was a lot of my templar cannot compete with light armor and a staff up close against lets say a dragonknight, nerf dk and his spamable dizzy swing, here we are, the debs made that possible by nerfing everything people asked to be nerfed, now I do not see why those same templars should now not see the nerf hammer strike their habilities i do not see why someone equiped with light armor that mitigates less damage and a staff that has lower spell damage than a 2-h should win hands down when charging, but the charge alone is a total mess for the other player, I agree that Puncturing Sweep has to have higher damage than a ranged attack but staff has lower weapon damage anyway so they should get less damage over all.
Well the off balance issue does not seems they have thought as how it interacts with skills and sets when they made the change and now are improvising, it affects me too on my dk with dizzy swing but i will get an stun evey 22 seconds instead of every 6 like is normal but I use it more to recharge resources than for the stun so the snare will work quite well for me to connect those heavy attacks, and my warden just gets his parrot attack ultra nerfed that i had been trying in bg and on some people with a lot of healing so the parrot helped actually kill some of them now with a window of 7 seconds where he can get bleeds and then another of 15 where his parrot is nothing just an underwhelming parrot, I think they have not thought about those things because there is no change at all in cutting dive and I would say it is not their intent at all to nerf templars just they did not thought of it, and it is another nerf to dizzy swing that after it sets enemies off-balance they would have to nerf off-balance.

Oh please, L2P, a DK complaining about self healing is ridiculous.

Olupajmibanan · February 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

CynicK wrote: »

Yes but there was a lot of my templar cannot compete with light armor and a staff up close against lets say a dragonknight, nerf dk and his spamable dizzy swing, here we are, the debs made that possible by nerfing everything people asked to be nerfed, now I do not see why those same templars should now not see the nerf hammer strike their habilities i do not see why someone equiped with light armor that mitigates less damage and a staff that has lower spell damage than a 2-h should win hands down when charging, but the charge alone is a total mess for the other player, I agree that Puncturing Sweep has to have higher damage than a ranged attack but staff has lower weapon damage anyway so they should get less damage over all.
Well the off balance issue does not seems they have thought as how it interacts with skills and sets when they made the change and now are improvising, it affects me too on my dk with dizzy swing but i will get an stun evey 22 seconds instead of every 6 like is normal but I use it more to recharge resources than for the stun so the snare will work quite well for me to connect those heavy attacks, and my warden just gets his parrot attack ultra nerfed that i had been trying in bg and on some people with a lot of healing so the parrot helped actually kill some of them now with a window of 7 seconds where he can get bleeds and then another of 15 where his parrot is nothing just an underwhelming parrot, I think they have not thought about those things because there is no change at all in cutting dive and I would say it is not their intent at all to nerf templars just they did not thought of it, and it is another nerf to dizzy swing that after it sets enemies off-balance they would have to nerf off-balance.

Oh please, L2P, a DK complaining about self healing is ridiculous.

His point was about ZoS implementing a change without thinking of consequences. And that is far more important problem than some l2p issues, because ZoS does this often.

Derra · February 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

More because magsorc currently just is very meh when fighting experienced players and definetly not OP vs templars.

Elwendryll · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

A lot of other classes would love to have abilities that do all of those things, but only Templars continue to complain when they already have abilities that do twice as many things as everyone else's.

I'm not taking sides for this particular ability, I truly don't care on that one. I'm just tired of the "other classes don't have that, remove it" attitude. I'm a sorc. And I still miss my 3rd bar sometimes.

ZOS_Volpe · February 2020

Greetings,

As we've removed a few non-constructive comments around baiting, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

boomcat · February 2020

technohic wrote: »

Wow. That seemed somewhat uncalled for.

sorry ma dude. -.- its just frustrating everything being changed/reworked because some players cry.. buff me, nerf him i cant one shot that guy, and so on.

Reverb · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

How about instead you look at the utility of other class gap closers. They all do more than just close distance and deal damage, utility effects include stun (aoe stun even), snare, dot, vulnerability, maim, immobilize, undodgable. Effects granted to the caster include empower, absorb projectiles, expedition, cc and snare immunity, savagery, and more.

usmguy1234 · February 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

If we could go back in time roughly 2-3 years toppling being overloaded wouldn't even be a discussion, even at its current state but now after years of the devs gutting skills, it's absolutely overloaded. It's not even really a point worth arguing. Also, please do yourself a favor a put the blame squarely on the devs shoulders. A majority of the players, myself included, never wanted the combat to be as watered down as it is currently.

How else is ZOS supposed to take your comment above of "Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait."?

You are clearly suggesting that the skill is over-performing, is a problem that needs to be addressed, and after 5+ years we know what that means: devs gutting skills and watering down the abilities and combat.

We got water-down combat because of all sorts of PvP whining, whether that's explicit screams to nerf abilities or insinuations that one particular class/skill does too much (and are so desperate to include a passives). Or is someone going to try and convince me is was the NPC mobs and raid bosses who advocated for the ZOS standard that mutli-functional skills (such as stun and damage) should be separated, or that ultiamtes needed a cast-time, or Blastbones had to go an entire year [!] just derping around after a cast?

It is worth arguing because the philosophy of "it's overloaded, nerf now!" is precisely why ESO has and had zero direction from the devs except for constantly reacting to PvP complaints. Or the community making fun of a new set by nerfing Ice-heart. The devs are totally reactionary.

What needs to be addressed is the devs inconsistencies through this so called "balancing" process. This can only be done by pointing out the disparities between skills, passives, classes, etc. Even more importantly, the devs need to be held accountable and a good start would be for people like you to stop blaming the community for the problems created by the devs. The people on this forum represent a small minority of the actually eso community. The fact that the devs listen to the grumblings on the forums more so than the class reps or the thousands of players across various other social media platforms or ingame metrics is nothing more than a gigantic slap to the face to those who spend their time giving useful feedback.

Joy_Division · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

If we could go back in time roughly 2-3 years toppling being overloaded wouldn't even be a discussion, even at its current state but now after years of the devs gutting skills, it's absolutely overloaded. It's not even really a point worth arguing. Also, please do yourself a favor a put the blame squarely on the devs shoulders. A majority of the players, myself included, never wanted the combat to be as watered down as it is currently.

How else is ZOS supposed to take your comment above of "Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait."?

You are clearly suggesting that the skill is over-performing, is a problem that needs to be addressed, and after 5+ years we know what that means: devs gutting skills and watering down the abilities and combat.

We got water-down combat because of all sorts of PvP whining, whether that's explicit screams to nerf abilities or insinuations that one particular class/skill does too much (and are so desperate to include a passives). Or is someone going to try and convince me is was the NPC mobs and raid bosses who advocated for the ZOS standard that mutli-functional skills (such as stun and damage) should be separated, or that ultiamtes needed a cast-time, or Blastbones had to go an entire year [!] just derping around after a cast?

It is worth arguing because the philosophy of "it's overloaded, nerf now!" is precisely why ESO has and had zero direction from the devs except for constantly reacting to PvP complaints. Or the community making fun of a new set by nerfing Ice-heart. The devs are totally reactionary.

What needs to be addressed is the devs inconsistencies through this so called "balancing" process. This can only be done by pointing out the disparities between skills, passives, classes, etc. Even more importantly, the devs need to be held accountable and a good start would be for people like you to stop blaming the community for the problems created by the devs. The people on this forum represent a small minority of the actually eso community. The fact that the devs listen to the grumblings on the forums more so than the class reps or the thousands of players across various other social media platforms or ingame metrics is nothing more than a gigantic slap to the face to those who spend their time giving useful feedback.

If you dont want the devs to listen to grumbling, then dont contribute to the grumbling. It's clear as day the devs respond to it.

In 5+ years of giving feedback, I have *never* advocated for a nerf to any class, so you can stop blaming me or people like me who actually do give detailed feedback to address the core problems in the game.

Bergzorn · February 2020

Neoauspex wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Will trade for Streak.

Maybe ZOS should give Streak to Templars for a few weeks. Once the novelity wears off, you'd probably see that it doesn't work well with your other skills.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

All this time magsorc spams curses

This is quoteworthy.

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

What the actual f you are saying? I can't even touch a decent templar with my magsorc. Haunting Curse + Endless Fury, both cleansed on one Cleansing Ritual cast. Crystal Fragments, rolldodgeable and blockable. What am I left with? Oh yeah, Crushing Shock spam. I would gladly meet templars that die to Crushing Shock spam only.

Templars are the reason I stopped playing magsorc entirely. On demand 5 effects cleanse is very strong against classes that rely on purgeable effects.

If I'll purge every curse on stamplar, I won't have enough magicka on toppling charge after each streak. And without counter-pressure, magsorc will just burn you from distance. As for now break free from streak spam+gap closer are sustainable by off-balance heavy attacks + free stun. With new off-balance cooldown I highly doubt that will be still viable. So far the only counter will be not to fight magsorcs in open space... which is lame and boring imo. Magsorc is now one of the most interesting and intense opponents to fight against, it will be pity to start luring them in LOS conditions and inevitable stalemate.

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are going to throw rotten fruit at you because they already this the skill is "overloaded".

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

It doesn't deal any damage on stamplar, and I seriously doubt it does any notable damage on magplar with tooltip lower then spammable. Anyway, I agree that TC is second best gap closer after magsorc's streak and that it doesn't need any buffs against other classes. You may guess from smile in first sentence that I'm speaking about this "buff to TC" with a bit of irony. But it doesn't cancel that streak spam is pretty hard to manage on stamplar even now and with this changes to off-balance magsorc (with streak) will be hard-counter against it.
P.S. I fought ton of magsorcs as of late and 90% were using streak and using it wherever you come close and not cc-immune. I have 2000 stamina recovery + focus + 5 medium and even with off-balance stun/heavy attacks it is barely sustainable. Of course I can switch 1-2 glyphs from WD to stam recovery and go to 2400-2700 stam recovery... but this is imo road in nowhere, you won't kill anybody and nobody will kill you, what's the point...

Bergzorn · February 2020

I have no strong feelings about Toppling Charge or the off-balance changes, but I (kinda) have them about your arguments involving Streak and stamina sustain.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

P.S. I fought ton of magsorcs as of late and 90% were using streak and using it wherever you come close and not cc-immune. I have 2000 stamina recovery + focus + 5 medium and even with off-balance stun/heavy attacks it is barely sustainable.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Now without off-balance I don't see any way to counter streak spam. This is less of an issue in CP, but in no-CP without off-balance it will be impossible to sustain break free from unblockable stun on cooldown.

Most competent opponents will CC you if you are not immune and in range of their primary CC skill. Why shouldn't Sorcs. They also have to sustain enough stamina to break free from your CCs. Stamina management is one of the most deciding factors in a battle. You are making it sound as if you, the STAMplar, were at an disatvantage here.

I can understand complaints about Sorcs streaking into the sunset with a freaking meatshield behid them, but not about Streak when it's used to stun or reposition offensively.

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

Bergzorn wrote: »

I have no strong feelings about Toppling Charge or the off-balance changes, but I (kinda) have them about your arguments involving Streak and stamina sustain.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

P.S. I fought ton of magsorcs as of late and 90% were using streak and using it wherever you come close and not cc-immune. I have 2000 stamina recovery + focus + 5 medium and even with off-balance stun/heavy attacks it is barely sustainable.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Now without off-balance I don't see any way to counter streak spam. This is less of an issue in CP, but in no-CP without off-balance it will be impossible to sustain break free from unblockable stun on cooldown.

Most competent opponents will CC you if you are not immune and in range of their primary CC skill. Why shouldn't Sorcs. They also have to sustain enough stamina to break free from your CCs. Stamina management is one of the most deciding factors in a battle. You are making it sound as if you, the STAMplar, were at an disatvantage here.

I can understand complaints about Sorcs streaking into the sunset with a freaking meatshield behid them, but not about Streak when it's used to stun or reposition offensively.

Magsorc here is just for an example. Thread is more about negative impact of off-balance change.

Imo stamplar now has relative solo player vs solo player parity with other stamclasses with exception of stamDK and stamNB (those 2 need buff imo) and with magsorc (and magplar). What bring this change to off-balance? It makes all other stam classes weaker because they all rely on dizzy but it doesn't impact magsorc at all (with exception of overload builds). Stamcro is obviously buffed by blastbones change. So if in this patch we have stamplar, magplar, stamden, stamcro, magsorc as overall more or less balanced (and best) classes. Stamsorc is.. stamsorc. StamDK, stamNB, magDK are somewhat weaker but still viable and other 3 magclasses can use glitchy vampiric drain... now with off-balance change and removal of drain... there will be wild imbalance... if now there are 3 "tiers" of classes, next patch there will 5 or more tiers, because 4 stamclasses will be negatively impacted by dizzy nerf, 3 magclasses impacted by drain nerf while templars will remain overall the same with exception of fights with magsorcs and stamcro will be OP.

usmguy1234 · February 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait.

Because all classes should have exactly the same functionalities but with different colors only, because any unique perk would be a disaster. Right?

If we could go back in time roughly 2-3 years toppling being overloaded wouldn't even be a discussion, even at its current state but now after years of the devs gutting skills, it's absolutely overloaded. It's not even really a point worth arguing. Also, please do yourself a favor a put the blame squarely on the devs shoulders. A majority of the players, myself included, never wanted the combat to be as watered down as it is currently.

How else is ZOS supposed to take your comment above of "Obligatory name the other gap closers that: cc, does decent damage, gives offbalance and passively gives minor protection. I'll wait."?

You are clearly suggesting that the skill is over-performing, is a problem that needs to be addressed, and after 5+ years we know what that means: devs gutting skills and watering down the abilities and combat.

We got water-down combat because of all sorts of PvP whining, whether that's explicit screams to nerf abilities or insinuations that one particular class/skill does too much (and are so desperate to include a passives). Or is someone going to try and convince me is was the NPC mobs and raid bosses who advocated for the ZOS standard that mutli-functional skills (such as stun and damage) should be separated, or that ultiamtes needed a cast-time, or Blastbones had to go an entire year [!] just derping around after a cast?

It is worth arguing because the philosophy of "it's overloaded, nerf now!" is precisely why ESO has and had zero direction from the devs except for constantly reacting to PvP complaints. Or the community making fun of a new set by nerfing Ice-heart. The devs are totally reactionary.

What needs to be addressed is the devs inconsistencies through this so called "balancing" process. This can only be done by pointing out the disparities between skills, passives, classes, etc. Even more importantly, the devs need to be held accountable and a good start would be for people like you to stop blaming the community for the problems created by the devs. The people on this forum represent a small minority of the actually eso community. The fact that the devs listen to the grumblings on the forums more so than the class reps or the thousands of players across various other social media platforms or ingame metrics is nothing more than a gigantic slap to the face to those who spend their time giving useful feedback.

If you dont want the devs to listen to grumbling, then dont contribute to the grumbling. It's clear as day the devs respond to it.

In 5+ years of giving feedback, I have *never* advocated for a nerf to any class, so you can stop blaming me or people like me who actually do give detailed feedback to address the core problems in the game.

What exactly are you implying that I am accusing you of? The only thing I've accused you of was for putting the faults of this game on the community. Which is a completely asinine notion. Like I said this forum is a tiny minority of the actual eso community. The fault of listening to the vocal minority lies squarely on the shoulders of the devs.