Call to Test

Xvorg · February 2020

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Please don't forget this exists. If the bug is actually a bug or an intended feature and not some kind of misunderstanding of dueling mechanics or otherwise, we need to be extremely vocal about this. Hand-holding is NOT okay.

But nah let's have thirty threads relating to Iceheart which is a niche set for frostdens *at best*.

There's been no response made to this actual testing being done by Minc and Gott here, and no mention of these potential destructive mechanics in any of the patch notes, either as a bug or as a feature. So what exactly is going on here?

@MincVinyl @DarkGottbeard it might be a good idea to remake this thread with the new info and a more appealing name. Maybe make it about the clown store or how hard you find animation cancelling so the devs might actually give it a look?

You missed the entire discussion on Iceheart.

It is not the set per se, it is the way how ZoS tries to sell their new set by making worse an option currently exists.

It is important because if this bug is related to a new hidden Vamp passive that prevents death, and is going to be put behind a payroll (just the ones tha bought the patch can have this Vamp overhaul), then the game will officially become P2W

ElvenVeil · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Ive passed this thread on to class reps, and people on the stream team. There are quite alot of bugs present that might be passed through to live.

this mit bug
random heal after stun animation
stuck with 0 stam recov
my overload bugs

and the bug where you just cannot block. It is not my impression from the patch notes that it is fixed. I got the bug before I even could finish a single duel on pts. If all that stuff makes it to live, together with the incredibly poorly performing cyrodil, I don't see how one can even attempt pvp. play for 2 minutes, need to relog to fix bug, only to return to lag-o-land that more feels like turn based combat - rinse and repeat.

virtus753 · February 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Please don't forget this exists. If the bug is actually a bug or an intended feature and not some kind of misunderstanding of dueling mechanics or otherwise, we need to be extremely vocal about this. Hand-holding is NOT okay.

But nah let's have thirty threads relating to Iceheart which is a niche set for frostdens *at best*.

There's been no response made to this actual testing being done by Minc and Gott here, and no mention of these potential destructive mechanics in any of the patch notes, either as a bug or as a feature. So what exactly is going on here?

@MincVinyl @DarkGottbeard it might be a good idea to remake this thread with the new info and a more appealing name. Maybe make it about the clown store or how hard you find animation cancelling so the devs might actually give it a look?

You missed the entire discussion on Iceheart.

It is not the set per se, it is the way how ZoS tries to sell their new set by making worse an option currently exists.

It is important because if this bug is related to a new hidden Vamp passive that prevents death, and is going to be put behind a payroll (just the ones tha bought the patch can have this Vamp overhaul), then the game will officially become P2W

Haven’t they already said the re-vamp applies with Update 26, not the Greymoor chapter? We don’t buy the patch; it’s free for (and forced on) everyone.

I have a very hard time seeing any “get out of death free card” for vamp stuck behind a paywall.

MincVinyl · February 2020

@Xvorg
The vamp rework is going to apply to everyone in the game (actually regretting buying the chapter since that is the only thing i am interested in, and im a stamsorc dizzy main or atleast am on live for now. I will be gaining nothing from the chapter most likely)

As for iceheart, there were i think 8 threads within an hour of the patch notes released all complaining about the same thing. Zos mods only removed a few of them, but things like that just damage forum threads that are way more important than people crying about their opinion on how zos conducts business. It is pointless to even discuss in these threads.

If zos released a strong new set>>threads about people crying for cash grab
If zos released a weak set>>threads about zos doing nothing for the game
This time they tried work around a standard>>Threads complaining about cash grab/incompetence

Either way threads like these should be condensed by mods/admins. Or a vetting process should be made to create an actual testing forum. Instead I have to pass information that should be known to the public through back alley methods like my friends on the stream team and class reps. Groups of people should be on the pts actually working together to solve bugs like mentioned above. If you look for my forum post about overload you can see how tedious these bugs can be to figure out, some of which take 60+ hours of testing. Then just to have this information buried by threads that are about people's opinions on zos's practices/ideas.

I havent made a new thread about OL this pts, but the info I have shared in a few threads like this one:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6588744#Comment_6588744

@ElvenVeil
If anything with these bugs next patch, swap to a boring suffocation style build. (defiles/dots/root-snare spam) or all three together. Burst windows were already hurt enough due to cast timed ults extending TTK. Now if this hits live there will really be no point in trying since your burst combo that pops most players will need to be able to be done twice in a row. This so called tank meta that people keep crying about will just shift back to the dot/suffocation meta again since it will be the only working playstyle. When in reality there are little problems with the meta right now, dots are in a balanced place where they are used as tools by most players instead of their only source of damage. People are only "tanky" and live through seemingly everything because reaction times available to most burst ults is now 3-4x that of the average human reaction time. If you duel you will see players are coming across more stalemates since anyone with half a brain can react in time. What will end up being strong next is a meta where players choose to build towards things that are guaranteed and can't be reacted to, like suffocation mechanics.

[suffocation metas usually lead to solos having no chance at fighting back to some groups, the only real way to stop this would be changing how dots work back to not stacking>>much much longer rant]

(Tried to keep these responses as short as I could without leaving room to derail this thread with conversation. I guess in a way I'm explaining how the meta will shift next especially with the present bugs on pts)

Rahar · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

If zos released a strong new set>>threads about people crying for cash grab
If zos released a weak set>>threads about zos doing nothing for the game
This time they tried work around a standard>>Threads complaining about cash grab/incompetence

I really like this part of your post, but I agree with everything there. I don't think the ghost mitigation bug would quite result in a DoT meta again (because DoTs don't do enough damage to even approach threatening by themselves as things are at the moment) but it would lead to extremely odd workarounds in play, such as tapping your enemy with a light or two before really starting up your combo. Furthermore, if this particular bug persisted into live, I think we would see new players extremely confused by these hidden rules when they were participating in big damage themselves. Its the kind of thing you would have to just know without it being explained in game anywhere (think 160 CP being the gear cap and the old dizzy knock up anim lasting a bit before you could break free kind of hidden rule), and that's never friendly to new players... so if that was ZOS's goal, I think they're going the wrong way.

Xvorg · February 2020

virtus753 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Please don't forget this exists. If the bug is actually a bug or an intended feature and not some kind of misunderstanding of dueling mechanics or otherwise, we need to be extremely vocal about this. Hand-holding is NOT okay.

But nah let's have thirty threads relating to Iceheart which is a niche set for frostdens *at best*.

There's been no response made to this actual testing being done by Minc and Gott here, and no mention of these potential destructive mechanics in any of the patch notes, either as a bug or as a feature. So what exactly is going on here?

@MincVinyl @DarkGottbeard it might be a good idea to remake this thread with the new info and a more appealing name. Maybe make it about the clown store or how hard you find animation cancelling so the devs might actually give it a look?

You missed the entire discussion on Iceheart.

It is not the set per se, it is the way how ZoS tries to sell their new set by making worse an option currently exists.

It is important because if this bug is related to a new hidden Vamp passive that prevents death, and is going to be put behind a payroll (just the ones tha bought the patch can have this Vamp overhaul), then the game will officially become P2W

Haven’t they already said the re-vamp applies with Update 26, not the Greymoor chapter? We don’t buy the patch; it’s free for (and forced on) everyone.

I have a very hard time seeing any “get out of death free card” for vamp stuck behind a paywall.

In don't have that hard time seeing it... remember when cliff racer was unreflectable and undodgeable?

Xvorg · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Xvorg
The vamp rework is going to apply to everyone in the game (actually regretting buying the chapter since that is the only thing i am interested in, and im a stamsorc dizzy main or atleast am on live for now. I will be gaining nothing from the chapter most likely)

As for iceheart, there were i think 8 threads within an hour of the patch notes released all complaining about the same thing. Zos mods only removed a few of them, but things like that just damage forum threads that are way more important than people crying about their opinion on how zos conducts business. It is pointless to even discuss in these threads.

If zos released a strong new set>>threads about people crying for cash grab
If zos released a weak set>>threads about zos doing nothing for the game
This time they tried work around a standard>>Threads complaining about cash grab/incompetence

Either way threads like these should be condensed by mods/admins. Or a vetting process should be made to create an actual testing forum. Instead I have to pass information that should be known to the public through back alley methods like my friends on the stream team and class reps. Groups of people should be on the pts actually working together to solve bugs like mentioned above. If you look for my forum post about overload you can see how tedious these bugs can be to figure out, some of which take 60+ hours of testing. Then just to have this information buried by threads that are about people's opinions on zos's practices/ideas.

I havent made a new thread about OL this pts, but the info I have shared in a few threads like this one:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6588744#Comment_6588744

I agree about the importance of this bug, although I have little faith in any change or explanation, not because there are few replies, but because ZoS don't even give a damn about things like this. They have a vision about the game, how do we know this is not part of that vision? Anyway, if this is a bug that should be solved, it should be solved no matter how much replies or threads about it are in the forums. And that has nothing to do with the IH case.

I don't think it is so bad that people create even hundreds of threads about something that bothers them. Yes, this is a test environment, but on the other hand, it is a paid test environment. So as customers, people are entitled to be vocal about what they consider it is unfair in ways they feel it agrees with his dissapointment. It is not a bug, it is not a ninja nerf, it was a post with a very lame explanation. It is going to provoke reactions and that can be seen from leagues ahead.

If this was a serious testing environment I'd do agree what you say, but it is not...

Now, why ZoS haven't created a sub forum for complaints, or a sub forum seriosu stuff is something that is beyond my comprehension. I don't like multiple therads talking about the same, but c'mon, as I said before, people have the right to express their opinions even in ways I don't like.

MincVinyl · February 2020

@Rahar
The reason I say dots will come back is because players that are not able to create a burst rotation around this bug/mechanic will turn to the next best way to kill players. There are other things happening that will help shift the meta towards dots aswell. One being nerfs to weapon direct damage abilities, s&b last cycle and now 2h. Necro changes to have maj/min defile with high uptimes.

Doing a little bit of damage before hand we found did not stop the bug from happening aswell. We had several tests around 60-70% hp that were also granted mitigation from what i remember.

What was strong about the knockup was that even if you broke free as early as possible you were in the air. I don't remember having the break free opportunity not synced to the animation though. For instance with live vamp stun you are stunned on ability input>then the drain animation hits you>then you can break free. Which gives a small 0.2-0.3 sec window where fast enough players react but nothing happens until break free is able to be input again. With old dizzy the knockup was synced with the hit after the swing animation giving clear indication that you are about to be stunned, but if you failed to counter it you could break free in the air. Still being stuck in the air was why knockups were strong. Now some true knockback abilities like draining shot and javelin do a similar function where even if you react you will still be moved.(sometimes in the wrong direction *cough cough* another bug)

Rahar · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Rahar
The reason I say dots will come back is because players that are not able to create a burst rotation around this bug/mechanic will turn to the next best way to kill players. There are other things happening that will help shift the meta towards dots aswell. One being nerfs to weapon direct damage abilities, s&b last cycle and now 2h. Necro changes to have maj/min defile with high uptimes.
Doing a little bit of damage before hand we found did not stop the bug from happening aswell. We had several tests around 60-70% hp that were also granted mitigation from what i remember.
What was strong about the knockup was that even if you broke free as early as possible you were in the air. I don't remember having the break free opportunity not synced to the animation though. For instance with live vamp stun you are stunned on ability input>then the drain animation hits you>then you can break free. Which gives a small 0.2-0.3 sec window where fast enough players react but nothing happens until break free is able to be input again. With old dizzy the knockup was synced with the hit after the swing animation giving clear indication that you are about to be stunned, but if you failed to counter it you could break free in the air. Still being stuck in the air was why knockups were strong. Now some true knockback abilities like draining shot and javelin do a similar function where even if you react you will still be moved.(sometimes in the wrong direction *cough cough* another bug)

For some reason I had thought one of you said that doing a little damage before the burst would help with avoiding the mitigation. Even so, it would still be an unwritten rule that new players would have to learn and be repeatedly subjected to, which would result in mass confusion most of the time, especially if that new player was the one doing decent damage.

Nonetheless, if DoTs did become the only option... Oh boy. I don't think anything would ever die without 10+ people on 1.

AMeanOne · February 2020

Nice, still no zos response.

MincVinyl · February 2020

Careful @AMeanOne , don't get banned for bumping. Although....... it would mean someone from zos would get to read this thread.

iCaliban · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Careful @AMeanOne , don't get banned for bumping. Although....... it would mean someone from zos would get to read this thread.

Probably still in the identification phase. Hopefully this bug is not actually related to the incoming patch and is instead due to new code from the expansion acting wonky

Finedaible · February 2020

I'm no coder, but the bug sounds like a server-side calculation error. Maybe it's just too much damage being pushed through and it somehow pushes the enemy player's hp values into a negative range? Negative hp values have been used as a sort of a quick-and-dirty 'godmode' for testing purposes in other games. Maybe something similar is happening here.

Rahar · February 2020

Finedaible wrote: »

I'm no coder, but the bug sounds like a server-side calculation error. Maybe it's just too much damage being pushed through and it somehow pushes the enemy player's hp values into a negative range? Negative hp values have been used as a sort of a quick-and-dirty 'godmode' for testing purposes in other games. Maybe something similar is happening here.

Getting a bit technical, max value for a 32 bit integer (I assume this is the data type for HP and damage since it 's very common) is 2,147,483,647. Once you go over max int values, it is possible to hit negatives due to the value wrapping, which is just a placeholder word for bad interpretation by the computer. That seems super unlikely though, just due to the sheer value of the amount of damage that would be needed, and probably in just 1 hit.

I'm not sure what to make of it even as a professional. I think it's more likely that some vampire passives were being tested or some skill or ability broke due to all the optimization changes, providing massive amounts of mitigation. All we can really do is speculate, and I'd rather get some kind of confirmation than sit here and think about what it could be by ourselves.

AMeanOne · February 2020

Agreed Rahar, any sort of dev reply would be better than leaving us to speculate. Unfortunately zos hates communication.

darthgummibear_ESO · February 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

It is important because if this bug is related to a new hidden Vamp passive that prevents death, and is going to be put behind a payroll (just the ones tha bought the patch can have this Vamp overhaul), then the game will officially become P2W

First off, enough with the p2w garbage. Second, the vampire changes will be part of the core game.

mav1234 · February 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

I agree about the importance of this bug, although I have little faith in any change or explanation, not because there are few replies, but because ZoS don't even give a damn about things like this. They have a vision about the game, how do we know this is not part of that vision? .

I wish they would communicate this vision better in its various forms so we could provide more useful feedback. Perhaps they don't want people being instantly burst down, but it would be good to have this communicated.

I will try to test this a bit this week if I can. Thank you for pointing the bug out.

Nordic__Knights · February 2020

Nice to know whats not getting FIXED ANYTIME SOON yep this bug well be in live on release:(

Mayrael · February 2020

Few questions.
1. Your target has 19k HP, you deal 9k damage with onslaught, why its HP goes almost to 0?
2. Can you turn on built in damage info to check if it covers with addon?

MincVinyl · February 2020

Mayrael wrote: »

Few questions.
1. Your target has 19k HP, you deal 9k damage with onslaught, why its HP goes almost to 0?
2. Can you turn on built in damage info to check if it covers with addon?

That is interesting to point out, i suppose I could set up a test on live, then build the same toons on pts and know where individual abilities are supposed to bring your health down to. If anything this could just be a ui bug, and combat metrics just goes off of the eso ui.

SodanTok · February 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Few questions.
1. Your target has 19k HP, you deal 9k damage with onslaught, why its HP goes almost to 0?
2. Can you turn on built in damage info to check if it covers with addon?

That is interesting to point out, i suppose I could set up a test on live, then build the same toons on pts and know where individual abilities are supposed to bring your health down to. If anything this could just be a ui bug, and combat metrics just goes off of the eso ui.

This is the most important part. There is no proof here anywhere that killing of target is actually stopped. The only proof provided is from you which shows that onslaugh+executioneer didnt kill the target which imo didnt receive enough damage to be killed, the target probably wasnt even in execute range (below 50%) after the onslaught.

~19k HP target -> 9k damage onslaugh -> LA -> executioneer you do the math

MincVinyl · February 2020

SodanTok wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Few questions.
1. Your target has 19k HP, you deal 9k damage with onslaught, why its HP goes almost to 0?
2. Can you turn on built in damage info to check if it covers with addon?

That is interesting to point out, i suppose I could set up a test on live, then build the same toons on pts and know where individual abilities are supposed to bring your health down to. If anything this could just be a ui bug, and combat metrics just goes off of the eso ui.

This is the most important part. There is no proof here anywhere that killing of target is actually stopped. The only proof provided is from you which shows that onslaugh+executioneer didnt kill the target which imo didnt receive enough damage to be killed, the target probably wasnt even in execute range (below 50%) after the onslaught.

Well we tested two builds, one we know was a one gcd build that worked on live. My fully buffed onslaught setup i believe should have been able to kill a completely unbuffed person with 75cp slotted no tank sets. That is why it never crossed my mind. @DarkGottbeard also had several other one gcd kill tests that witnessed this bug.

Feel free to help test and get evidence as well.

kaithuzar · February 2020

Rahar wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I'm no coder, but the bug sounds like a server-side calculation error. Maybe it's just too much damage being pushed through and it somehow pushes the enemy player's hp values into a negative range? Negative hp values have been used as a sort of a quick-and-dirty 'godmode' for testing purposes in other games. Maybe something similar is happening here.

Getting a bit technical, max value for a 32 bit integer (I assume this is the data type for HP and damage since it 's very common) is 2,147,483,647. Once you go over max int values, it is possible to hit negatives due to the value wrapping, which is just a placeholder word for bad interpretation by the computer. That seems super unlikely though, just due to the sheer value of the amount of damage that would be needed, and probably in just 1 hit.

I'm not sure what to make of it even as a professional. I think it's more likely that some vampire passives were being tested or some skill or ability broke due to all the optimization changes, providing massive amounts of mitigation. All we can really do is speculate, and I'd rather get some kind of confirmation than sit here and think about what it could be by ourselves.

You probably know this but maybe they need to be reminded signed versus unsigned integers have different ranges.

Also there’s probably some type conversion or maybe even type casting going on. It’s not that this is bad it just needs to be double checked for consistency. I could see how they would have damage as a floating point number since they change the math the first year or two in the game adding another zero to all of the base numbers like spell damage or weapon damage.