Eso without class?

starkerealm · February 2020

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I live in the "No Classes" camp. Maybe it would be cool if classes could be assignable per bar? So I could front bar Necromancer and back bar DragonKnight for example? Maybe I'd front bar Sorc and backbar Templar. IDK, it would be fun to figure out different combinations though.

Given that Dragon Knights practice Akaviri martial arts, and Necromancers use more conventional arcane magic... that's a pretty weird kick over.

FierceSam · February 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

No nb, no dk, no temp, no sorc.

Just the usual elder scrolls skills.

2h, snb, archery, summoning, alteration, destruction, etc.

We can still have roles like tank, healer and dd's.

Would it be more fun and familiar or not?

To be honest, I think this would be a good direction for the game to go in. Just remove the restraints of class and give everyone access to all skill lines. They could lock them behind quests to increase content as well.

It would help bring some much needed build diversity to the game and make character development more interesting generally. It would also encourage players like me who are turned off at the prospect of starting from scratch to try out new class skills.

I feel it would have exactly the opposite effect. Builds would become far more restrictive and you’d end up with a more extreme version of the ‘stamina build’, where all stamina characters had the same weapon and the same 5 skills on their back bar, none of which were from their classes. And only 1 or 2 class skills on their other bar.

I like the fact that the different classes are distinct. I think if anything there should be more restrictions placed on non-class skills to ensure that each class’s unique feel and abilities are more pronounced.

oddbasket · February 2020

Indirectly having less types of service tokens or incentives to buy them? Not going to happen.

Miloscpolski · February 2020

russelmmendoza wrote: »

No nb, no dk, no temp, no sorc.

Just the usual elder scrolls skills.

2h, snb, archery, summoning, alteration, destruction, etc.

We can still have roles like tank, healer and dd's.

Would it be more fun and familiar or not?

If you mean NO OVER POWER necros and wardens then ok, it will be nice cuz zos dont know how much they buffed these classes.

Sylvermynx · February 2020

In an MMO, one is always "defined" by what one brings to the group table. A "no classes" option isn't going to give vet dungeon/trials groups anything to work from.

An MMO by its very existence lives by (or dies by) the group vibe that happens for endgame. Classless ESO is not going to give endgame anything viable.

Disclaimer: I don't have any interest in endgame in this game or any other. I left that in the dust of WoW and RIFT many years back now. I wouldn't ever go back to that sort of "gameplay" - too toxic (yeah.... even though it was all in my own guilds with family and friends), too intense (you don't have *whatever the right gear is?*, "you can't show up for *whatever instance?*")....

Seriously. My FAMILY were like that. Now, admittedly, I do have various issues with them outside of games.... But that was a total shocker for me. So - I just do not ever go there any more. I don't do group content. I'm not EVER going to do so again.

This game is perfect for a solo player. Hmmm.... well - it would be perfect if my ping didn't make quest line mini-bosses pretty much impossible. Then again, I have what I have for connection, and it's all I have. So.... I have fun my way.

I have fun. That's the bottom line, at least for me.

RD065 · February 2020

I like classes just wish they had more of them and wish they had a good option for a hybrid class.

starkerealm · February 2020

RD065 wrote: »

I like classes just wish they had more of them and wish they had a good option for a hybrid class.

All of the classes have the capability to be hybrid. The issue is that they way damage is calculated in ESO, hybrid builds are fundamentally inferior to dedicated ones.

Nanfoodle · February 2020

Balancing is hard enough with classes, so you can't access just any skill line. It's kinda required for group play. Your idea works well in single player games.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would be different.

The meta game would be even more restrictive at an end-game level. Some skills would be obviously BIS for given roles and that's what people would use.

We'd have less variety in PVP for the same reason.

And while individual players would have more options for how they want to play their characters, we'd honestly have less distinct playstyles. As it is, my Stam sorcs play differently from my stam DK and very differently from my Stam Warden, even if they all use bow/DW.

In short, it might suit people who want the feel of the single player TES games where you could experience a distinct playstyle when swapping different weapons but not feel pidgeonholed in to one thing or another. But for anyone who likes ESO's end-game content or PVP (two things not present in the single player TES games), this would remove the distinct playstyles provided by classes even though the weapons/staves all have established BIS skills.

Personally, I think ESO's classes serve their purpose to create variety of gameplay in a way that - let's be honest here - the classes of previous TES games never really managed, at least judging by my experiences in Morrowind and Oblivion and it was removed in Skyrim except for the Warrior/Mage/Thief stones. ESO, like the TES games, makes weapons available for everyone...and then distinguishes its playstyles by class first, then weapons.

Why do you care about distinct playstyles?

ManwithBeard9 · February 2020

Miloscpolski wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

No nb, no dk, no temp, no sorc.

Just the usual elder scrolls skills.

2h, snb, archery, summoning, alteration, destruction, etc.

We can still have roles like tank, healer and dd's.

Would it be more fun and familiar or not?

If you mean NO OVER POWER necros and wardens then ok, it will be nice cuz zos dont know how much they buffed these classes.

Yeah instead of an "OP" class or two, it would be everyone. Because everyone could slap any "OP" skill on their bars.

Darkenarlol · February 2020

what's the point of this change?

to nerf every single skill to the ground

because you can stack best skills from all classes?

i mean it may be ok fro single player game

but we'll be drown in no time with "omg NURF IT!!11"

from our beloved pvp potatoes while in pve

meta will remain meta just because of...numbers

Recent · February 2020

So the game creators create a game and design it along with its scenery, maps, lore, races, storylines, factions, combat systems, classes, themes etc and then some random player comes along and demands they change one of those things about the game. Do you really think the developers are going to listen or even consider makibg such a huge change to a game that is played by millions of people?

I highly doubt they would break their game like that when so many of their player base expect those classes to be in place ascthat is what they paid for.

Op i was just making a strong point. Im not saying you dont have the right to want this.

idk · February 2020

jircris11 wrote: »

Issue with this is the amount if exit one can do mixing class skills. Meta would be "you must have these or get kicked"

Yep. It would be one build to rule them all for the most part. The little bit of class flavor there is would be out the door and this would become the most boring MMORPG that could be imagined.

starkerealm · February 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would be different.

The meta game would be even more restrictive at an end-game level. Some skills would be obviously BIS for given roles and that's what people would use.

We'd have less variety in PVP for the same reason.

And while individual players would have more options for how they want to play their characters, we'd honestly have less distinct playstyles. As it is, my Stam sorcs play differently from my stam DK and very differently from my Stam Warden, even if they all use bow/DW.

In short, it might suit people who want the feel of the single player TES games where you could experience a distinct playstyle when swapping different weapons but not feel pidgeonholed in to one thing or another. But for anyone who likes ESO's end-game content or PVP (two things not present in the single player TES games), this would remove the distinct playstyles provided by classes even though the weapons/staves all have established BIS skills.

Personally, I think ESO's classes serve their purpose to create variety of gameplay in a way that - let's be honest here - the classes of previous TES games never really managed, at least judging by my experiences in Morrowind and Oblivion and it was removed in Skyrim except for the Warrior/Mage/Thief stones. ESO, like the TES games, makes weapons available for everyone...and then distinguishes its playstyles by class first, then weapons.

Why do you care about distinct playstyles?

A better question would be, "why don't you care about distinct playstyles?" There is a valid answer of, "I don't think about it," but when you're pigeonholing a game, particularly an MMO, into a single playstyle, you deprive it of a lot of diversity, which in turn means that if a player doesn't mesh with the one thing on offer, there's no reason for them to stick around.

idk · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would be different.

The meta game would be even more restrictive at an end-game level. Some skills would be obviously BIS for given roles and that's what people would use.

We'd have less variety in PVP for the same reason.

And while individual players would have more options for how they want to play their characters, we'd honestly have less distinct playstyles. As it is, my Stam sorcs play differently from my stam DK and very differently from my Stam Warden, even if they all use bow/DW.

In short, it might suit people who want the feel of the single player TES games where you could experience a distinct playstyle when swapping different weapons but not feel pidgeonholed in to one thing or another. But for anyone who likes ESO's end-game content or PVP (two things not present in the single player TES games), this would remove the distinct playstyles provided by classes even though the weapons/staves all have established BIS skills.

Personally, I think ESO's classes serve their purpose to create variety of gameplay in a way that - let's be honest here - the classes of previous TES games never really managed, at least judging by my experiences in Morrowind and Oblivion and it was removed in Skyrim except for the Warrior/Mage/Thief stones. ESO, like the TES games, makes weapons available for everyone...and then distinguishes its playstyles by class first, then weapons.

Why do you care about distinct playstyles?

A better question would be, "why don't you care about distinct playstyles?" There is a valid answer of, "I don't think about it," but when you're pigeonholing a game, particularly an MMO, into a single playstyle, you deprive it of a lot of diversity, which in turn means that if a player doesn't mesh with the one thing on offer, there's no reason for them to stick around.

Very true and a very solid and logical answer. Lack of distinct playstyles would be boring which is why MMORPGs do not go that route.

Faulgor · February 2020

I think that's the route they should have gone from the beginning. They had all the necessary pieces to make it happen, mainly a very limited skill bar.

But you have to design such a system from the ground up, and I'm not sure the curernt game can be retrofitted with a reasonable amount of work. It would be possible, but armchair-developing solutions seems very fruitless.

ESO's current system shows that the presence of classes does not guarantee distinct playstyles, though.

starkerealm · February 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO's current system shows that the presence of classes does not guarantee distinct playstyles, though.

You cannot guarantee player behavior. You can only offer options. At that point, a significant portion of the blame for the current environment rests with content creators who argue for a single monolithic BiS.

Iccotak · February 2020

So completely wreck the system and remake it from scratch for a system that is worse?
Yeah No

Nemesis7884 · February 2020

having more skill(lines) to collect and choose from freely, of course it would be better and more elder scrolls...but

would have could have should have

zos doesnt manage to properly implement and balance the current system so what makes you think they could completely revamp them?

Besides, at some point after 6 years these things need to be DONE

Paramedicus · February 2020

ESO could remove classes but would have to develop current skill line system, otherwise it would be boring

Aa @Chronocidal mentioned, it can be done, as Secret World shows. Combat system there was similar to ESO's: you could use 2 weapons and those weapons had skills matching typical mmo roles (you had few weapons with some healing skills, few weapons with CC, few for DD, few for buffing etc.). Every weapon gave different feeling when used (there were magical weapons, shoutguns, rifles, pistols, swords, fists etc.) and to make system more interesting, matching two particular weapons gave synergistic effect, i.e. so you could get different types of healers, by combinig different 'healer' weapons or 'healer' + "buff" or "CC" weapons and so on.

Anyway, classless system = boring game, only if devs lack imagination.

TheShadowScout · February 2020

Personally I would not have gone with classes at all, but with an different system. Like "either-or" skill lines and "pick one of the bunch" seelctions... because while a MMO does not exactly need classes, it does need some method to wnsure not everyone ends up using the same "super-effective" combination of skills and that maens some limitations on skill selection, some spreading of advantages over a wider range, so that noone can do it all with one setup...

But that ship has sailed and sunk a loooong time ago.

Today we have ESO with classes. And its highly unlikely that will ever change, since the rebalancing effort would take way more resources then the developers could possibly justify to the suits in charge.
And so we have to live with what is, not with what we wish was.
And hope there will be small improvements that -are- within their development budget to make it better within the limits imposed by the game structure!

FierceSam · February 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would be different.

The meta game would be even more restrictive at an end-game level. Some skills would be obviously BIS for given roles and that's what people would use.

We'd have less variety in PVP for the same reason.

And while individual players would have more options for how they want to play their characters, we'd honestly have less distinct playstyles. As it is, my Stam sorcs play differently from my stam DK and very differently from my Stam Warden, even if they all use bow/DW.

In short, it might suit people who want the feel of the single player TES games where you could experience a distinct playstyle when swapping different weapons but not feel pidgeonholed in to one thing or another. But for anyone who likes ESO's end-game content or PVP (two things not present in the single player TES games), this would remove the distinct playstyles provided by classes even though the weapons/staves all have established BIS skills.

Personally, I think ESO's classes serve their purpose to create variety of gameplay in a way that - let's be honest here - the classes of previous TES games never really managed, at least judging by my experiences in Morrowind and Oblivion and it was removed in Skyrim except for the Warrior/Mage/Thief stones. ESO, like the TES games, makes weapons available for everyone...and then distinguishes its playstyles by class first, then weapons.

Why do you care about distinct playstyles?

Because unlike a solo game, I'm not the only player here.

And I don't want my Magblade to play like my Stamsorc. If they did, why would I bother having more than one character.

And I'm not so self-obsessed and ignorant that I assume everyone wants to play like me.

Aelorin · February 2020

I am used to the classes now. I would be upset if they removed them.

That does not mean that i do not like the Morrowind classes and skills, but eso does not seem to work that way.

barney2525 · February 2020

NO

Just ....

NO

You want a classless system? Go play a game that is Designed for it.

IMHO

starkerealm · February 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

having more skill(lines) to collect and choose from freely, of course it would be better and more elder scrolls...

If you'd played previous Elder Scrolls games, you'd know that there are only two games in the entire franchise that do not have a class system.

starkerealm · February 2020

Paramedicus wrote: »

ESO could remove classes but would have to develop current skill line system, otherwise it would be boring

Aa @Chronocidal mentioned, it can be done, as Secret World shows. Combat system there was similar to ESO's: you could use 2 weapons and those weapons had skills matching typical mmo roles (you had few weapons with some healing skills, few weapons with CC, few for DD, few for buffing etc.). Every weapon gave different feeling when used (there were magical weapons, shoutguns, rifles, pistols, swords, fists etc.) and to make system more interesting, matching two particular weapons gave synergistic effect, i.e. so you could get different types of healers, by combinig different 'healer' weapons or 'healer' + "buff" or "CC" weapons and so on.

Anyway, classless system = boring game, only if devs lack imagination.

What you're glazing over is that TSW was a mess. Further, the way combat was designed in TSW, entire build options were selectively invalidated, so as you progressed through the game, more and more abilities became unusable, until you were left with some very tight cookie cutters. For example: The Facility straight up required your healer to be running a Blood Magic build.

You weren't able to freely mix whichever weapons you wanted. At least, not after you exited the first zone.

ghastley · February 2020

None of the single-player games actually had classes in the same way ESO does. There was no decision at the creation of a character to permanently exclude skills. All the "classes" did was to set initial skill levels differently for the new charcter, so they had more work to do in some areas, and less in others. But any character could add and develop any skill after that.

In ESO, you choose to forgo all the skills in the other class skill lines when you select one. That's just like a Cleric not being able to use sharps in classic D&D. Once you have the class, there are things you can never do.

The closest to this was Daggerfall's options to restrict use of materials or levels of armour and weapons. That didn't stop a character developing a skill, just gimped what they could do it with.

I'd have been happier with a class system that more closely matched tank/healer/dd roles, as those probably should be the exlusive choices.

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2020

russelmmendoza wrote: »

No nb, no dk, no temp, no sorc.

Just the usual elder scrolls skills.

2h, snb, archery, summoning, alteration, destruction, etc.

We can still have roles like tank, healer and dd's.

Would it be more fun and familiar or not?

You don't need ZoS to make this happen. Simply don't put skill points into the class skill line.

starkerealm · February 2020

ghastley wrote: »

None of the single-player games actually had classes in the same way ESO does. There was no decision at the creation of a character to permanently exclude skills. All the "classes" did was to set initial skill levels differently for the new charcter, so they had more work to do in some areas, and less in others. But any character could add and develop any skill after that.

That's not how classes in Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire worked.

ghastley wrote: »

In ESO, you choose to forgo all the skills in the other class skill lines when you select one. That's just like a Cleric not being able to use sharps in classic D&D. Once you have the class, there are things you can never do.

Ironically, it's more like how your cleric can't cast wizard abilities in D&D for the exact same reason. Your Templar learned a form of magic that is fundamentally incompatible with what your sorcerer learned. Nightblades practice Shadow Magic, Templars practice some kind of Aedric supplication, Wardens practice some form of Wyrd magic, Dragon Knights practice Akaviri martial arts. The only characters that even approach the kinds of magic you're used to in the single player games are the Sorcerer and the Necromancer. Even there, it's suggested that the Sorc may be using some kind of daedric influenced magic, rather than conventional spellcasting.

In contrast, all player characters in the single player games are schooled (primarily) in a dominant, unified, system of magic that was propagated by the Mage's Guild. You've seen some of the other variants of magic in the past, but they were never open to you in those games. (Without modding) you couldn't chose to become a nature mage, for example.

ghastley wrote: »

The closest to this was Daggerfall's options to restrict use of materials or levels of armour and weapons. That didn't stop a character developing a skill, just gimped what they could do it with.

Daggerfall's class system went way beyond this. You could do some really crazy stuff with that, and each class had the potential for a very distinct identity. Also, it was not possible to simply level up whatever you wanted as high as you wanted. There were alternate ceilings on the skills based on some factors. Even your leveling speed changed based on choices you'd made. A stronger class (yes, straight up stronger) would level more slowly, while a much weaker class would level faster.

ghastley wrote: »

I'd have been happier with a class system that more closely matched tank/healer/dd roles, as those probably should be the exlusive choices.

That was the original design. However, the decision pivoted away to allow each class to perform each role in their own way. It takes the six class options and turns them into 24 potential variants (slightly higher, in fact.) If the game really only had six classes, and each one had to be played in a very specific way, that would get boring. Even worse if it was like, "well, we need a tank, so we have to have a DK. Can't be anything else." That would be, straight up, boring.