What is defined as "griefing" a player?

Browiseth · February 2020

i would say if it is fairly obvious you are intentionally trying to upset another person through your conduct; be it through your method of play or your use of rude, abusive or uncalled communication, that would be an easy definition of griefing

it is of course a very grey area. for example, what if some players in cyrodiil are playing around with a silly unconventional strategy for the sake of fun and genuinely hope other players can appreciate that silly fun, but instead other players call it 'griefing'?

BisDasBlutGefriert · February 2020

Making the first thing you see when you log in, a huuuge crown store ad to draw your eyes to it. Granted, that style of enticement works great for marketing and sales in all honesty, but sheesh. I consider that griefing a player.

BackStabeth · February 2020

Thokri wrote: »

Since pvp is only allowed on cyrodil/bg limited areas, it is mostly killing npc/merchants.
Although I do believe all essential ones are unkillable so just random citizens.

I do not believe any part of cyrodil or bg can be grief, ganking is just part of pvp and not those who do not like it can opt to not do pvp.

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

Vote kick abusers and other obnoxious behavior don't really go in to traditional griefing category.

ESO is one of those games I actually have hard to think how people would grief. Except if you count being fake tank and afker and in general being d*ck.
For me old fashioned griefing is spawn camping and destroying game. (killing quest npc/towns etc.).

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

From Urban Dictionary, 1. Purposefully shooting or otherwise sabotaging your teammates in an online game.

2. In online gaming where one repeatedly killing the same individual or individuals over and over again, or camping their corpse to prevent them from retrieving it, or otherwise performing actions in a game to prevent the player from enjoying the game.

3. In online gaming, someone who takes pleasure in creating grief for an opponent via various "cheap" tactics.

From Dictionary.com, A griefer or grief player, is a participant in an online multiplayer computer game who makes a point to harass other participants in the game.

From Techopedia,

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that goes out of his or her way to annoy other players. The term griefer is derived from the idea of “giving [someone] grief”. There are many, many ways that a griefer may go about angering others, including:

Trash talking
Stealing kills
Camping
Turtling
Intentional friendly fire

Point is, griefing has nothing to do with NPCs. Ganking happens to be a type of griefing. If you do anything on purpose, to negatively affect other players on purpose or the intended purpose of making them feel bad you are griefing.

On a side note, it's interesting to note that Ganking is not usually performed by people who are confident players with skill, it's almost always done by very weak players who just like in real life, gang up with other very weak players. There is nothing about them that might be said to be clever, or strong, or people that have any applicable skill in PvP. They gang up to abuse other players because they are weak and cannot effectively engage in PvP so they resort to bad behavior instead.

Ganking is also not part of PvP, nowhere in the phrase "Player vs Player" is their room for "Group killing Individuals". Ganking happens in PvP, it has from the very start of the very first MMOs. It used to be people who ganked were banned, this changed when EVE Online started allowing ganking and not taking action but instead actually encouraging bad behavior like ganking and scams, etc. Some MMOs followed suit, some allowed but did not encourage it but it's not PvP at all. Lets not pretend that there is anything okay about ganking anyone, there is not, there is no benefit, there is no glory, the only purpose for ganking I can fathom is for griefing other players at least in ESO.

To the OP, if you are concerned you are being griefed, I would report it and report it every time it happens, I would encourage everyone else who believes they are being griefed to do the same. We are the people who define what griefing is in this game. ZoS wants player retention, if people are being griefed or what they consider to be so and report it and ZoS gets enough of those complaints they will take action because people who are griefed usually stop playing those games and that means lost revenue.

If you are looking to define griefing so you can skirt around the definition and not be banned? Which I don't feel this is the reason for the OPs question but if others are lurking for that reason then remember this. If you do things specifically to negatively affect other players, if you grief other players, they will report you and eventually if not sooner rather than later ZoS will take action against you. There is no good reason to grief anyone, ever. It's just simply bad behavior and only funny to you.

KMarble · February 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Thokri wrote: »

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

That said, killing all the NPCs in an area, especially Auridon during New Life when people are trying to mudball citizens, is maybe more akin to a type of trolling -- negative attention just to elicit a response so that they can "matter" to people.

Given that you can mudball players as well it's a pretty poor troll attempt.

yes. But why else do people do it so frequently during New Life? It's all they can muster to try to irritate people who are trying to experience the ambiance of Skywatch and the event. They kill all the NPCs from the wayshrine all the way to the palace.
And let's not discount people who intentionally DON'T want to mudball other players.
In SWTOR every year you get people refusing to snowball people during Life Day and even freak out if they get snowballed. NPCs are invariably a safe interaction option.

I did the mud ball quest every day on 4 chars and honestly had no problem finding NPC's to get muddy. Yes, there were bodies all around, but the NPCs were respawning quite fast.

I honestly thought the mass murderers were trying to get either the skooma bubbler or the pattern for it. (IMO, a very ineffective way of doing it)

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Thokri wrote: »

But there is huge difference in killing irrelevant npcs and important ones.

Sure. But NPCs are all "important" to different people in different ways. A lot of NPCs you think are not important have to be killable because they are in fact quest targets. People might want to interact with them for pickpocketing quests (or just pickpocketing without a quest). And you can often actually TALK to them and they say something, so people who are there for lore or roleplay or ambiance are hindered by mountains of corpses.
People play ESO for many reasons and enjoy it in many ways. If trolls want to just slaughter NPCs they can do so without interfering with others in many ways, such as inside a Sacrament. Or in Cyrodiil at towns your alliance doesn't control.

1. Any NPC who is a quest target has a faster respawn rate.
2. People who want to interact with a temporarily dead NPC because they want to pick pocket, for role playing or lore reasons or even murder the NPC have the same options as everybody else - wait for the NPC to respawn or move to another place where they can do similar things.

Beardimus wrote: »

Not to the same level you experienced but if I witness a Pick Pick Stab murder in a town I always duel request the person. I always played a law-abiding citizten and it's duff when folks can murder all about you. Dark Brotherhood launch was the worst

You just gave us an example of griefing, congrats.

I have yet to find ANY NPC quest giver in this game that I can kill, and I've done every single quest in all PvE zones, with the exception of a handful of them in Craglorn. As for the other NPCs, they spawn back.

I've lost count how many times I've ported to a certain area just to find my mark already dead on the floor. I have two options, I can go to another place, or wait for my mark(s) to respawn. I recommend you do the same.

(preemptive response to the argument that the location is important for role play. The same applies to those of us who steal and kill. For example, the great houses motif pages only drop from stealing NPCs.)

You know what I canNOT do? I cannot prevent some annoying player from inviting me to duel while I'm in the process of picking a pocket or using the blade of woe. At best, I have to stop my activity to decline the invitation and at worse, I end up in a duel I didn't want to be in.
But even in that situation I went with the proactive choice and now automatically decline such invitations. Most people who like to steal and kill NPCs in this game will eventually find out how to do so. Until they do, though, you're in fact griefing players so you can role play your law abiding citizen.

doomette · February 2020

Edit: oops, time for some coffee 😳

Unseelie · February 2020

Beardimus wrote: »

Unseelie wrote: »

I had one pup who kept challenging me to duel (what is it with some of the assclowns out there who just run around doing that to people without saying a word?) and I brushed it off two or three times and kept about my business. So I am in Hews Bane trying to pick some pockets and he just ran around following me running circles around me and trying to mess with my targets constantly and when I continued to ignore them just kept running around me spamming emotes. When I continued to ignore them and go on my business is when the whisper spam hit.
He ended up botching trying to steal a chest and guards went after him and I went the other way and blocked them.

But I would imagine anytime it gets in that scenario that would be griefing.

I had a friend who plays on PS4 who made the mistake of leaving voice chat on (they did not have a mic but you are stuck hearing) and that is a whole different level of crazy with the things you hear and deal with on voice.

Up until the whisper spam you could argue he's just RPing.

Not to the same level you experienced but if I witness a Pick Pick Stab murder in a town I always duel request the person. I always played a law-abiding citizten and it's duff when folks can murder all about you. Dark Brotherhood launch was the worst

I would honestly have no problem with that. There have been times when a player saw me ...quieting a very rude citizen ...and yelled out "MURDERER" and pointing at me or other such interactions and I will go right along with it, and if then someone wanted to challenge I would be all for it. It is the lack of foreplay that irritates me, when someone is just standing around spamming challenges to anyone around. On a side note I find it so dumb that guards will walk by dead bodies and not even react. I would love if a guard comes near a dead body that they immediately go into alert mode where they can see sneak.

Dalsinthus · February 2020

Best example I've seen in ESO is two players going out of their way to harass a third player in pvp.

Here's the scenario:
A pvp guild is running together in Cyrodiil. One player in the group (A) hates another player in the group (B). A invites his friend (C) who plays a snipe ganker on another alliance to the guild. A and B are in the same group, using guild chat to communicate. C is lurking in the guild chat and texting with A so that she always knows exactly where the group is, particularly the location of B.

Everywhere the group of A and B goes, C is waiting. She only attacks B out of a group of about 8 players and various other random players taking the same keep or resources. C repeatedly exploits the health desync glitch with snipe to kill B. This happens enough times that B eventually gives up and logs off. A few days later A and C gang up on B again. And then it happens again. Before long B leaves the guild and pvp campaign.

To me this is griefing because it's coordination across alliances for the sole purpose of ruining one player's experience. It's also using in game resources (guild chat) for unintended purposes and exploiting a known glitch (health desync) to prevent any counter play. It's just all around bad behavior.

Tandor · February 2020

Given that the OP hasn't added anything to this thread since his original post, it would be interesting to know whether he is enquiring in order to establish whether what someone is subjecting him to constitutes a breach of TOS, or is enquiring so that he can subject someone else to griefing up to and not beyond the point where he may be held in breach of TOS...

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

You can counterplay anything that can be called like that.

I remember a situation where people were repeatedly running to the outfit table in Wayrest, placing one of those event cakes right in front of the table, so people who were using the tabel couldn't see their outfit previews. Counter? (port to another city can hardly be the answer)

When you know the answer but you don't like the answer lol

Beardimus · February 2020

Karmanorway wrote: »

Kill someone in PvP, then you are griefing xD
Jokes aside, anything you do intentionaly to upset another player is griefing, If they dont like what u are doing.

-If you want to avoid griefers, dont PvP.

What an odd post. Bias.

The whole thread is littered with PvE griefing examples yet you focus on PvP.

And the only griefing that can be done there is cheating.

Spearpoint · February 2020

When "tanks" are entering dungeons, I consider them unrespectful trolls, but they can be kicked if needed.
But when it comes to bloodfiends/werefolfs spawns, that's what I consider to be the most griefed aspect of ESO.

Due to this none of my characters are vampires. And due to role-playing purposes and the personal achievement in it itself, I want to become a vampire through an NPC.

I've recently been trying to become vampire again, and even after checking every possible guide, topic and addon for hints to their spawn location, it's hard to find the bloodfiends.

I've would really wish too see that when a player with the relevant disease, or when he/she had killed enough of them, the bloodfiends might be "instanced out" of their instance. Or something similar.

Simply to prevent further griefing. Because this is behavior is literally the definition of griefing.

Any really concrete info about obtaining the diseases is already really scarce and misleading. Lunar phases, water level in Riften etc..

Maybe these griefers are making sure ZOS is making money of the 1500 crown disease, but I honestly doubt there's a lot of buyers of this service in the first place.

Oh well, this one will not give up

BackStabeth · February 2020

Beardimus wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

Kill someone in PvP, then you are griefing xD
Jokes aside, anything you do intentionaly to upset another player is griefing, If they dont like what u are doing.

-If you want to avoid griefers, dont PvP.

What an odd post. Bias.

The whole thread is littered with PvE griefing examples yet you focus on PvP.

And the only griefing that can be done there is cheating.

Meh, lets be honest, most of the griefing done is by people engaging in PvP, it's almost always the case with all MMOs.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

KMarble wrote: »

You know what I canNOT do? I cannot prevent some annoying player from inviting me to duel while I'm in the process of picking a pocket or using the blade of woe.

Yes you can. It's in the Options.

Mik195 · February 2020

I was using the outfit station in Elden Root and constantly was hit by mudballs which pulled me out of the design screen. I considered that griefing and ZOS should have limited mudballs to Skywatch New Life.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

Mik195 wrote: »

I was using the outfit station in Elden Root and constantly was hit by mudballs which pulled me out of the design screen. I considered that griefing and ZOS should have limited mudballs to Skywatch New Life.

This is why any sort of interaction you can do TO another player is typically gated. Like dueling -- you have to REQUEST it and people who aren't into it can auto-ignore it.
What some people THINK is harmless actually has consequences. They just don't think further than themselves most of the time.

Blinkin8r · February 2020

Nyladreas wrote: »

GamerKat6823 wrote: »

Trying to get information on how ZoS/Bethesda define griefing, if they even cover the matter.

Still searching through the TOS, but decided to see if I was re-inventing the wheel first and see if there was something actually out there I could refer to.

Thanks!

I know for a fact that a form of griefing is when you pick one player let's say in Imperial City, and you keep specifically targeting them over and over and over for whatever A-hole reason. Even better when you add toxic whispers to it. I've seen actual bans result from this behavior.

People don't get banned for killing a person in IC over and over. If they add hate whispers maybe they'll get banned for that. But you don't get banned for pvp in pvp areas. Hell we still have 10 man groups spamming aoes on doors and even they don't get banned. I've followed someone around all night before and killed them 30+ times before they logged off. It's not banable.

Dracofyre · February 2020

ZOS should have ban those who griefed rather than losing 2-3dozens players quiting.
it is simple math, to keep hundreds of happy players than losing all the players.

reporting is dangerous tactic by griefers too, what we need, to have ZOS reps to check quietly and if see any action broke CoC and EULA, then that reps will have to talk with that offending bad players before deciding to take actions.
other players would be victim of false reports as we doing things for quests or finding the lore books, etc. and if it was false report, then that reportering player get warning to cease and keep doing it, then 3-7 days ban for harrassing.
ZOS reps would have to be cloaked undetectable to observing, both players and check chats.
i had someone bugging me, i just put them on ignore list.

driosketch · February 2020

NPC:
Over the course of the game, there have been means of killing some essential NPCs. I once saw someone use a quest item, won't say which one, to kill a stablemaster.

At launch there were players who would camp the werewolf and vampire spawns, preventing others from getting infected. (These aren't essential but they have a really low spawn rate.) Then they would sell bites. In the worse cases, they would take the gold and not give a bite.

With regards to PvP:
There was a time you could sneak into an enemy alliance base. ZOS has since set up several countermeasures. In the same regard, gate camping or sewer base/entrance camping may be seen by some as in poor taste, but it isn't against the rules. It's also whey they all have several alt ways in and out, and the last one is no longer relevant.

I will note ZOS does try to eliminate certain styles of play that become a nuisance. It's why towers are now doorless. There are, however, some indoor quest givers that are camped during events. That could be consider a form of griefing, but it's one you have to choose to feed. If you don't go in, they'll get bored and leave.

Mudballs:
There was a time when mudballing a dueler allowed you to interfere in the fight. More of an exploit, but could be seen as griefing.

Mudballing some at a dye station is probably griefing, especially if persistent. I had thought they had fixed that though.

Concering Skywatch, I consider almost anyone there during New Life to be fair game. It's great because you don't have to toggle prevent attacking innocents off and on, and I encourage it in others. It also doesn't make sense to me to complain about getting muddy after you hit all those poor NPCs. I will pull up short for one type of player though, those in the bald, bearded Altmer disguise. Especially low level ones, since those players are obviouly just on a quest and not part of the "game."

Pets:
Now I'm sure the majority of players blocking interactables are absent minded and not malicious. But it is a problem. I knew a group who once ran around the craft area with pets out to bring it to ZOS's attention.

BackStabeth · February 2020

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

GamerKat6823 wrote: »

Trying to get information on how ZoS/Bethesda define griefing, if they even cover the matter.

Still searching through the TOS, but decided to see if I was re-inventing the wheel first and see if there was something actually out there I could refer to.

Thanks!

I know for a fact that a form of griefing is when you pick one player let's say in Imperial City, and you keep specifically targeting them over and over and over for whatever A-hole reason. Even better when you add toxic whispers to it. I've seen actual bans result from this behavior.

People don't get banned for killing a person in IC over and over. If they add hate whispers maybe they'll get banned for that. But you don't get banned for pvp in pvp areas. Hell we still have 10 man groups spamming aoes on doors and even they don't get banned. I've followed someone around all night before and killed them 30+ times before they logged off. It's not banable.

Wait, you followed someone around all night, and killed them 30+ times? That has nothing to do with PvP,, what you engaged in is blatant griefing.

Why? What would cause you to follow someone around all night, and why would you kill them 30* times? That sounds like someone with a serious issue. What could possibly cause you to behave in this way? Did the person say something about you that you took personally? Did they kill you 30+ times before? Were you angry because your significant other kicked you to the curb? I mean honestly, why would anyone behave like a sociopath on purpose, with intent?

It's this exact kind of behavior that give people reason enough to want nothing to do with anything PvP. If you don't realize it already, the way you behaved is exactly what defines a griefer.

Just because you were not banned does not mean you shouldn't have been. Do you not understand you are harming the game when you behave this way? That you are making someone not want to play the game? Do you understand you are exactly the problem and the reason why the population in PvP areas is so low? You chase off all the new people before they have any chance to enjoy PvP or learn anything at all.

I don't understand, reading things like this is just really disappointing. Not only did you behave in this way, which is bad enough, but you come here and brag about it and how you were not banned. I am really disappointed that someone, that anyone, believes it's okay to treat other people this way. I don't understand, it's just really pathetic on your part.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2020

Dracofyre wrote: »

i considered mudballing other players at Skywatch when they do on the quest.
happen to me during quest, there are several rude players kept throwing balls, and i was unable to move or stunned so many times, and misfire my aim and hit a guard, that was about to kill me, had to run off and bounty raised drastically, cost me few vouchers or wait 2 hours til bounty get zero.
devs had to nerf mudballing on world boss because it stun the bosses and exploiting from what i heard.

guards had me rooted few times. just few speed burst and break free skill really helped me to survive.
since last winter event, when i get mudball quest, i just delete and get fresh quest for something else to avoid grief-prone Skywatch.
i dont mind few mudball if i am not doing anything while i chat, if i was crafting and get mudballed, that is no no. i have no time to get interrupted.
i have seen so many jerks "duelings' near all the work stations in Davon's Watch, made me get in combat mode and it can become deadly when guards are near and you are not in duel mode, just cause 'hostile action misfire' can draw the guards to attack.
there are other topics that many want all the craft areas duel-free, no duels allow in the city.

remember, skyrim guards saying "No lollygagging allowed" as you passing by. that mean no mudballing in any cities, only effect npc while on quest which was permeitted but no effect on players. our quest said "Festival revelers npc", not other players.

Mudballs doesn't stun or interrupt you? At least not me. Usually someone who mudballs people in Vivec when I'm crafting and my character is happily crafting on despite getting all mud covered. And not to be rude but how do you even get in trouble with the guards when others are dueling?

geng14159 · February 2020

The biggest example of griefing I can give is when people camp the town giver locations in PVP. They don't claim the town, they just sit in the building where the quest giver spawns and spam AOEs so no one can enter the building to pick up or turn in the quest.

Yes, you can do other town quests but these people prevent you from doing any of these specific quests. You also can't claim people are doing it for AP since you stop earning AP if you kill the same player over and over again, which is what happens when Cyrodill questers try to go into the places.

Luckily, this only happens during events but it is annoying when it happens.

Dracofyre · February 2020

nota, it happens. mudball effect made me a misfire and hit a guard pass by as i tried to aim at revelers, dont ask me again.

just a bad timing and my aim went off as stunned trigger some minor movements. there were several mud throwers, made it harder to aim and even running away.
i was prepared to run in case if guards get hostile.
these jerks were laughing when the guards were after me. i see pure griefing. if you were there as one of them for jollies of ruining or interupting the quests in process. it raise ugly head.

Moloch1514 · February 2020

It is what this new combat team does to us every quarter.

Kalik_Gold · February 2020

When a player takes a few weeks/months to farm, enchant, transmute a set, learn his class and skills. Has his player toon set up. Then you nerf or make changes to it. Repeat every 3 months.

Ratzkifal · February 2020

Taking your own alliance's scroll/hammer and running into slaughterfish water with it to sabotage your alliance or intentionally handing it to the enemy.

Mr_Walker · February 2020

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I've followed someone around all night before and killed them 30+ times before they logged off.

If you get your jollies from making someone else miserable you have deeper issues. Turn off the game, go into the bathroom, and have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

doomette · February 2020

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I've followed someone around all night before and killed them 30+ times before they logged off.

If you get your jollies from making someone else miserable you have deeper issues. Turn off the game, go into the bathroom, and have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

And another one bragging about some socially maladjusted, cringeworthy stuff.
😬😬😬

BackStabeth · February 2020

doomette wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I've followed someone around all night before and killed them 30+ times before they logged off.

If you get your jollies from making someone else miserable you have deeper issues. Turn off the game, go into the bathroom, and have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

And another one bragging about some socially maladjusted, cringeworthy stuff.
😬😬😬

You know what is really weird, is that people who brag about being trolls, griefing, going way out of their way to negatively affect other players seem to have absolutely no clue at all how other people will see them. They seem to post as if it's some kind of badge, or something others would be impressed by. That type of behavior is way outside what is considered mentally healthy. There has to be something seriously deeply and disturbingly wrong, mentally, with someone who thinks that type of behavior is okay in any way.

GamerKat6823 · February 2020

Tandor wrote: »

Given that the OP hasn't added anything to this thread since his original post, it would be interesting to know whether he is enquiring in order to establish whether what someone is subjecting him to constitutes a breach of TOS, or is enquiring so that he can subject someone else to griefing up to and not beyond the point where he may be held in breach of TOS...

Well . . . this gamer momma is interested in what constitutes "griefing" because I'm tired of the people who drive the RP community batty at public sites like the Withered Tree, (for example). I want to find out what is actually in the TOS or EULA, so I am not reporting people wrongly. I'd like to be fair.

Kolzki · February 2020

Listing low level gear at max level prices. Try searching Tamriel trade centre for below level 50 mother’s sorrow inferno staves. Who golds a level 48 staff and sells it for 300k?