What is defined as "griefing" a player?

GamerKat6823 · February 2020

Trying to get information on how ZoS/Bethesda define griefing, if they even cover the matter.

Still searching through the TOS, but decided to see if I was re-inventing the wheel first and see if there was something actually out there I could refer to.

Thanks!

Thokri · February 2020

Since pvp is only allowed on cyrodil/bg limited areas, it is mostly killing npc/merchants.
Although I do believe all essential ones are unkillable so just random citizens.

I do not believe any part of cyrodil or bg can be grief, ganking is just part of pvp and not those who do not like it can opt to not do pvp.

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

Vote kick abusers and other obnoxious behavior don't really go in to traditional griefing category.

ESO is one of those games I actually have hard to think how people would grief. Except if you count being fake tank and afker and in general being d*ck.
For me old fashioned griefing is spawn camping and destroying game. (killing quest npc/towns etc.).

Unseelie · February 2020

I had one pup who kept challenging me to duel (what is it with some of the assclowns out there who just run around doing that to people without saying a word?) and I brushed it off two or three times and kept about my business. So I am in Hews Bane trying to pick some pockets and he just ran around following me running circles around me and trying to mess with my targets constantly and when I continued to ignore them just kept running around me spamming emotes. When I continued to ignore them and go on my business is when the whisper spam hit.
He ended up botching trying to steal a chest and guards went after him and I went the other way and blocked them.

But I would imagine anytime it gets in that scenario that would be griefing.

I had a friend who plays on PS4 who made the mistake of leaving voice chat on (they did not have a mic but you are stuck hearing) and that is a whole different level of crazy with the things you hear and deal with on voice.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

Thokri wrote: »

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

It's the best they can do in a PvE zone -- ruin your experience of the zone. And ultimately that's what "griefing"/trolling is about -- ruining someone's experience. It's just that in a PvP zone it can be more direct. That directness is what attracts the description "griefing".

That said, killing all the NPCs in an area, such as Skywatch during New Life when people are trying to mudball citizens, is maybe more akin to a type of trolling -- negative attention just to elicit a response so that they can "matter" to people.

Thokri · February 2020

But there is huge difference in killing irrelevant npcs and important ones. Not many quests require you to interract with killable npc. (Once again, I am not that much into killing useless npcs but I don't remember being able to kil "green" npcs)

Where as on some other mmos you can slaughter everything on opposite faction thus making questing/going to merchant impossible.
(For example I remember killing flight masters on wow so people could not fly to that spot. I think it is not possible anymore tho)

For some I guess being pet sorc top of banker might be consired griefing but I don't really see it that far. Just being ***.

Hapexamendios · February 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Thokri wrote: »

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

That said, killing all the NPCs in an area, especially Auridon during New Life when people are trying to mudball citizens, is maybe more akin to a type of trolling -- negative attention just to elicit a response so that they can "matter" to people.

Given that you can mudball players as well it's a pretty poor troll attempt.

Sylvermynx · February 2020

In ESO, griefing is pretty limited since pvp is behind the walls of Cyrodiil/IC. And generally, griefing (at least in my experience) is a pvp thing.

In WoW and RIFT, griefing was accomplished by those who chose to flag for pvp - but then, instead of finding like-minded other players, instead opted to kill merchants and quest givers so the rest of us couldn't accept/turn in quest, or sell our stuff.

In other words, interfere with someone else's play to a great extent.

I don't actually have any personal experience of griefing in ESO. But then.... having finished Cyro angler on 4 toons, I'm done there.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Thokri wrote: »

And that is streching it far since I don't see murdering town of npcs as griefing.

That said, killing all the NPCs in an area, especially Auridon during New Life when people are trying to mudball citizens, is maybe more akin to a type of trolling -- negative attention just to elicit a response so that they can "matter" to people.

Given that you can mudball players as well it's a pretty poor troll attempt.

yes. But why else do people do it so frequently during New Life? It's all they can muster to try to irritate people who are trying to experience the ambiance of Skywatch and the event. They kill all the NPCs from the wayshrine all the way to the palace.
And let's not discount people who intentionally DON'T want to mudball other players.
In SWTOR every year you get people refusing to snowball people during Life Day and even freak out if they get snowballed. NPCs are invariably a safe interaction option.

Thokri wrote: »

But there is huge difference in killing irrelevant npcs and important ones.

Sure. But NPCs are all "important" to different people in different ways. A lot of NPCs you think are not important have to be killable because they are in fact quest targets. People might want to interact with them for pickpocketing quests (or just pickpocketing without a quest). And you can often actually TALK to them and they say something, so people who are there for lore or roleplay or ambiance are hindered by mountains of corpses.
People play ESO for many reasons and enjoy it in many ways. If trolls want to just slaughter NPCs they can do so without interfering with others in many ways, such as inside a Sacrament. Or in Cyrodiil at towns your alliance doesn't control.

ArchMikem · February 2020

I believe the official motto of a notorious Corporation over in EVE Online is, "We're not here to ruin the game. We're here to ruin YOUR game". That's basically griefing. Players actively inconveniencing and ruining another Player's gameplay experience through any means.

Nyladreas · February 2020

GamerKat6823 wrote: »

Trying to get information on how ZoS/Bethesda define griefing, if they even cover the matter.

Still searching through the TOS, but decided to see if I was re-inventing the wheel first and see if there was something actually out there I could refer to.

Thanks!

I know for a fact that a form of griefing is when you pick one player let's say in Imperial City, and you keep specifically targeting them over and over and over for whatever A-hole reason. Even better when you add toxic whispers to it. I've seen actual bans result from this behavior.

thorwyn · February 2020

I believe the official motto of a notorious Corporation over in EVE Online is, "We're not here to ruin the game. We're here to ruin YOUR game". That's basically griefing. Players actively inconveniencing and ruining another Player's gameplay experience through any means.

I'd subscribe to that. However, it is important that the "ruining anpother player's gameplay experience" has to be a deliberate and active action. Just wandering around in a town, killing NPC's (and possibly interfering with the immersion of some roleplayers) because you're bored or in the mood to do that is not griefing. Doing it on purpose with the idea of ruining the immerson of some roleplayers is.
Same thing with pets... having a pet out while doing your dailies is not griefing. Deliberately placing your pet on a box so noone can activate it is.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

I'd subscribe to that. However, it is important that the "ruining anpother player's gameplay experience" has to be a deliberate and active action. Just wandering around in a town, killing NPC's (and possibly interfering with the immersion of some roleplayers) because you're bored or in the mood to do that is not griefing. Doing it on purpose with the idea of ruining the immerson of some roleplayers is.

And there's the loophole. You are doing it intentionally but pretend you're not if someone asks. It can be really hard to tell.
"Oh was my bear in the way? Had no idea, I was afk."

thorwyn · February 2020

And there's the loophole. You are doing it intentionally but pretend you're not if someone asks. It can be really hard to tell.

And the loophole goes both ways!
Roleplayer pretends that his immersion is being destroyed while he's actually actively looking for something to be offended by.

Raisin · February 2020

When I was doing my first Master Angler, I had people pick up world bosses (there's usually a fishing hole spawn near them), aggro them, drag them to me if the range allowed it, and keep them standing on me until AOE or other attacks interrupted my fishing. Did that a bunch of times in a row without ever actually attacking the boss other than to aggro.

...Certainly not the end of the world, but that sure pissed me off and felt like griefing at the time.

Dusk_Coven · February 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

And there's the loophole. You are doing it intentionally but pretend you're not if someone asks. It can be really hard to tell.

And the loophole goes both ways!
Roleplayer pretends that his immersion is being destroyed while he's actually actively looking for something to be offended by.

Right. So the safest way is to not unduly upset the base game in the cases where you have to actively be present, such as killing all of Auridon because your actions are carelessly affecting far too many people. In such a case, by grossly upsetting the game they are inviting other reactions -- such as the roleplayer pretending their immersion is ruined.

And in certain cases you are only able to get away with it because the systems in place are ineffectual, such as guards nearby but not responding at all. So the murderer-roleplayer complaining their immersion is ruined because they can't go on a murder spree is in fact flawed because it was not intended they be allowed to, in most circumstances.

There's an underlying issue here -- being considerate to others who are also playing the game. Just because you want something doesn't mean you can ruin it for other people. Where it becomes griefing is where the primary goal is to want to ruin it for other people rather than that being a side effect of what you want.

When people consistently refuse to be considerate, then eventually the law steps in and makes certain behaviours unlawful. Which ones become unlawful can change over time. For instance, in some countries, you cannot smoke in certain indoor spaces, or within a certain distance of entrances, etcetera.
So we see in ESO too -- from time to time frustration bubbles over and people demand that pets be auto-dismissed from certain locations. Why? Because not enough people show consideration.

So if people want to do something radical, take it somewhere private. Luckily we don't have real nudity in the game. Otherwise we might have an argument over people wanting to roleplay nudists smack in the middle of town.

Beardimus · February 2020

Unseelie wrote: »

I had one pup who kept challenging me to duel (what is it with some of the assclowns out there who just run around doing that to people without saying a word?) and I brushed it off two or three times and kept about my business. So I am in Hews Bane trying to pick some pockets and he just ran around following me running circles around me and trying to mess with my targets constantly and when I continued to ignore them just kept running around me spamming emotes. When I continued to ignore them and go on my business is when the whisper spam hit.
He ended up botching trying to steal a chest and guards went after him and I went the other way and blocked them.

But I would imagine anytime it gets in that scenario that would be griefing.

I had a friend who plays on PS4 who made the mistake of leaving voice chat on (they did not have a mic but you are stuck hearing) and that is a whole different level of crazy with the things you hear and deal with on voice.

Up until the whisper spam you could argue he's just RPing.

Not to the same level you experienced but if I witness a Pick Pick Stab murder in a town I always duel request the person. I always played a law-abiding citizten and it's duff when folks can murder all about you. Dark Brotherhood launch was the worst

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · February 2020

GamerKat6823 wrote: »

Trying to get information on how ZoS/Bethesda define griefing, if they even cover the matter.

Still searching through the TOS, but decided to see if I was re-inventing the wheel first and see if there was something actually out there I could refer to.

Thanks!

Not sure why ur asking but Zos says griefing is not allowed, Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc, they will check messages if sent, if ur on xbox or playstation they will also check there side

Bradyfjord · February 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

I'd subscribe to that. However, it is important that the "ruining anpother player's gameplay experience" has to be a deliberate and active action. Just wandering around in a town, killing NPC's (and possibly interfering with the immersion of some roleplayers) because you're bored or in the mood to do that is not griefing. Doing it on purpose with the idea of ruining the immerson of some roleplayers is.

And there's the loophole. You are doing it intentionally but pretend you're not if someone asks. It can be really hard to tell.
"Oh was my bear in the way? Had no idea, I was afk."

I've found that people with annoying behaviors move on eventually, at least in pve situations. After all, when they've done their quests and interacted with the widget they move on. The annoyance usually only lasts a moment or so.

Griefing would be persistent in the long run, and it will show when someone looks into the case.

Alienoutlaw · February 2020

for me its anything that would constitutes a deliberate
malicious act

1. kicking a low level player from a dungeon group based on level alone
2. making derogatory comments in chat based on someones DPS or lack of knowledge
3. camping spawn points in IC
4. reporting/threatening players for cheating without any proof
5. scamming/stealing/begging gold
6. emptying guild banks
ect ect

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2020

Beardimus wrote: »

Unseelie wrote: »

I had one pup who kept challenging me to duel (what is it with some of the assclowns out there who just run around doing that to people without saying a word?) and I brushed it off two or three times and kept about my business. So I am in Hews Bane trying to pick some pockets and he just ran around following me running circles around me and trying to mess with my targets constantly and when I continued to ignore them just kept running around me spamming emotes. When I continued to ignore them and go on my business is when the whisper spam hit.
He ended up botching trying to steal a chest and guards went after him and I went the other way and blocked them.

But I would imagine anytime it gets in that scenario that would be griefing.

I had a friend who plays on PS4 who made the mistake of leaving voice chat on (they did not have a mic but you are stuck hearing) and that is a whole different level of crazy with the things you hear and deal with on voice.

Up until the whisper spam you could argue he's just RPing.

No. Such behavior shouldn't be considered roleplaying.

Speaking of which, roleplayers who roleplay in public groups (Not in houses) are targets for griefing more often then they should ever be in an rpg. Spamming skills, mementos, emotes etc around them to annoy and disrupt is definitely griefing.

essi2 · February 2020

Intentionally hindering another players enjoyment of the outside of what the game intends. PvP is not griefing.

I'd argue Q'ing for roles you are INCAPABLE of filling or intentionally neglecting to play your CHOSEN role in Group Finder is a form of griefing.

kaisernick · February 2020

Id say those who intentionally block acess to doors and other such areas with mounts or pets a example. though i would only call it such if you kindly asked them to move becuase they were blocking acess and they dont as such.

Dracofyre · February 2020

i considered mudballing other players at Skywatch when they do on the quest.
happen to me during quest, there are several rude players kept throwing balls, and i was unable to move or stunned so many times, and misfire my aim and hit a guard, that was about to kill me, had to run off and bounty raised drastically, cost me few vouchers or wait 2 hours til bounty get zero.
devs had to nerf mudballing on world boss because it stun the bosses and exploiting from what i heard.

guards had me rooted few times. just few speed burst and break free skill really helped me to survive.
since last winter event, when i get mudball quest, i just delete and get fresh quest for something else to avoid grief-prone Skywatch.
i dont mind few mudball if i am not doing anything while i chat, if i was crafting and get mudballed, that is no no. i have no time to get interrupted.
i have seen so many jerks "duelings' near all the work stations in Davon's Watch, made me get in combat mode and it can become deadly when guards are near and you are not in duel mode, just cause 'hostile action misfire' can draw the guards to attack.
there are other topics that many want all the craft areas duel-free, no duels allow in the city.

remember, skyrim guards saying "No lollygagging allowed" as you passing by. that mean no mudballing in any cities, only effect npc while on quest which was permeitted but no effect on players. our quest said "Festival revelers npc", not other players.

redlink1979 · February 2020

"A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities.

Methods of griefing differ from game to game. What might be considered griefing in one area of a game may even be an intended function or mechanic in another area. Common methods may include but are not limited to:

- Intentional friendly fire or deliberately performing actions detrimental to other team members game performance.
- Wasting or destroying key game elements
- Colluding with opponents
- Giving false information
- Faking extreme incompetence with the intent of hurting teammates or failing an in-game objective
- Deliberately blocking shots from a player's own team, or blocking a player's view by standing in front of them so they cannot damage the enemy
- Trapping teammates in inescapable locations by using physics props, special abilities, or teleportation
- Actions undertaken to waste other players' time.
- Playing as slowly as possible
- Hiding from an enemy when there is no tactical benefit in doing so
- If a game interface element has no time limit, leaving their computer (going "AFK"), potentially forcing the other players to leave the game (which may incur a penalty for leaving)
- Constantly pausing the game or lowering its speed as much as possible, in the hopes that their target quit in frustration
- Causing a player disproportionate loss or reversing their progress.
- Destroying or modifying other players' creations without any permission in sandbox games like Minecraft and Terraria
- Driving vehicles backwards around lapped courses in multiplayer racing games, often done with the intent of crashing head-on into whoever is in first place
- Using exploits (taking advantage of bugs in a game).
- Illegally exiting a map's boundaries to gain a strategic advantage
- In a co-op or multiplayer game, destroying or otherwise denying access to items without which other players cannot finish the game
- Purposeful violation of server rules or guidelines.
- Impersonation of administrators or other players through similar screen names
- Written or verbal insults, including false accusations of cheating or griefing
- Spamming a voice or text chat channel to inconvenience, harass or annoy other players.
- Uploading offensive or explicit images to profile pictures, in-game sprays, or game skins.
- Kill stealing, denying another player the satisfaction or gain of killing a target that should have been theirs.
- Camping at a corpse or spawn area to repeatedly kill players as they respawn (when players have no method of recourse to prevent getting killed), preventing them from being able to play. Camping can also refer to continuously waiting in a tactically advantageous position for others to come to them; this is sometimes considered griefing because if all players do it, the game stalls, but this is now more commonly considered a game design issue.
- Acting out-of-character in a role-play setting to disrupt the serious gameplay of others.
- Luring many monsters or a single larger monster to chase the griefer, before moving to where other players are. The line of monsters in pursuit looks like a train, and hence this is sometimes called "training" or "aggroing".
- Blocking other players so they cannot move to or from a particular area, or access an in-game resource (such as a non-player character); the game The Division was found to have a serious problem with this at launch, where griefers could stand in the doorway out of the starting area, trapping players in the spawn room.
- Intentionally attempting to crash a server through lag or other means (such as spawning large amounts of resource-demanding objects), in order to cause interference among players.
- Smurfing, the process of creating extra accounts and deliberately losing games to enter a lower skill rank than is appropriate, before playing at full skill against lower-ranked opponents, thus defeating them easily.
- High-skill players deliberately losing in matches against low-skill players (usually due to shortage of players), causing the low-skill player's skill rating to artificially rise, so that they will be routinely pitted against opponents they have no chance against in the future.
- Impersonating a monster to trick someone into attacking the griefer so that a player is flagged as a murderer and the town guards kill that player. This was done early on in Ultima Online, where players had a scroll that could change their appearance to that of a monster, with the only way to tell the difference between them and a real monster being to click on them and read their name."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

Dr_Ganknstein · February 2020

Someone told me I was griefing because I was hiding inside a castle and killed the siege merchant so they couldn't buy stuff. Like counter siege etc etc. Also killed them a bunch to but they chose to respawning there.

mocap · February 2020

there is no griefing in ESO. You can counterplay anything that can be called like that.
Fake tanks can be kicked. Gankers are just L2P issue. Chat spammers can be just ignored.

In rare occasion some cool brahs can ruin fancy role-play stuff for some players (flashmob, guild group photo, guild overland event etc). But it's just meh, imo )

thorwyn · February 2020

You can counterplay anything that can be called like that.

I remember a situation where people were repeatedly running to the outfit table in Wayrest, placing one of those event cakes right in front of the table, so people who were using the tabel couldn't see their outfit previews. Counter? (port to another city can hardly be the answer)

Morgha_Kul · February 2020

Not sure how THEY define it, but to me griefing is doing anything intended to cause another player grief.

doomette · February 2020

Icky wrote: »

Someone told me I was griefing because I was hiding inside a castle and killed the siege merchant so they couldn't buy stuff. Like counter siege etc etc. Also killed them a bunch to but they chose to respawning there.

Hah not griefing but deviously smart (and I say that as someone who has been like where the frak is the siege merchant???).

snoozy · February 2020

nerfing iceheart into oblivion should be considered griefing

#SaveIceheart

Karmanorway · February 2020

Kill someone in PvP, then you are griefing xD
Jokes aside, anything you do intentionaly to upset another player is griefing, If they dont like what u are doing.

-If you want to avoid griefers, dont PvP.