Tanks ruining dungeon finder

BejaProphet · February 2020

Of course they ought to get their act together. Hey, I pug a LOT. And I will not deny that some spectacular stupidity happens.

A few days ago I pugged vet scale caller with a girl so amazingly drunk that she ended up in Cyrodiil DURING the dungeon run not knowing how she got there.

But...

1.) That level of crazy isn’t the norm and tanks ought not take the most dramatic crap and pretend it’s 80% of groups. I think we are in the best place of all roles to see our groups succeed. There are hopeless groups, but we have it pretty good.

2.) A tank shouldn’t let three group members be one shot on an opening group. That doesn’t make him a bad person at all, it’s a game, but stopping that is his primary job and he shouldn’t walk away as if none of it is on him. (If it happened)

That’s all I’m saying.

xXMeowMeowXx · February 2020

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Any vet dungeon these days I reckon 60% the tank flounces before the dungeon even starts. If you don't want to pug stop queuing, it's really no fun waiting half an hour to get in only for the tank to start vote-kicking and then rage-quit before he's even seen the group's performance.

Sorry, you had some bad experiences but that’s not everyone. Lots of people are like myself, low-key and more than helpful to pugs.

Whether or not, peeps race to their deaths or that special snowflake that decides to use an ice staff....I take it in stride and make sure the group gets the dungeon done with a tank, a real tank to count on.

Of course....maybe guys are more likely to be control freaks than women are *looks at my bf* >_>

Imo tanks are given a thankless role, healers too. Just a friendly hiya or a thanks goes a loooooong way.

BejaProphet · February 2020

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Any vet dungeon these days I reckon 60% the tank flounces before the dungeon even starts. If you don't want to pug stop queuing, it's really no fun waiting half an hour to get in only for the tank to start vote-kicking and then rage-quit before he's even seen the group's performance.

Sorry, you had some bad experiences but that’s not everyone. Lots of people are like myself, low-key and more than helpful to pugs.

Whether or not, peeps race to their deaths or that special snowflake that decides to use an ice staff....I take it in stride and make sure the group gets the dungeon done with a tank, a real tank to count on.

Of course....maybe guys are more likely to be control freaks than women are *looks at my bf* >_>

Imo tanks are given a thankless role, healers too. Just a friendly hiya or a thanks goes a loooooong way.

I like this person

Ryath_Waylander · February 2020

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Being a tank main, I sometimes pug veteran pledges. At this point I can tell if someone might be a poor dd just by looking at their character. Do they have a skin? Do they have a title that proves they went through some difficult content? What CP are they? Are they quickly killing the first boss?

I always stay until the first boss, because they're usually super easy. If it takes them ages to dps it down, I'm out. People just don't want to spend hours in a dungeon and I think it's fair.

The only means to judge, is by how quick the first boss goes down. Skins can be bought, not everyone flexes a title and CP can just be from doing the time. I'm a cp1020 and I suck as a DD.

I'll queue my healer as a DD on normal non-dlc dungeons to help buddies who are levelling healers up because with 18-20k dps, I am sadly usually doing 45% of the damage. I wouldn't dare do that on vet. While I think it's crummy to just abandon ship without telling the group why, I do have some empathy with a tank that's too tired to play nursemaid. However, when I don't have the energy to escort a low dps group, I make sure not to pug vet.

zvavi · February 2020

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

However, when I don't have the energy to escort a low dps group, I make sure not to pug vet.

"Escort" is the wrong word. When the dps cant theoretically pass the dungeon without the healer and tank doing 30% of the damage, and thats when they dont drop dead every half a minute, you cant call it escorting.

AgaTheGreat · February 2020

The tank only taunts priority mobs, the rest gets pulled and CCed for the DDs to burn. If they're unable to, that's on them.

Neoealth · February 2020

RodneyRegis wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Go play a tank and solve the problem

I do. But sometimes I want to play DD...

Exactly. Quite a silly comment from him.

RodneyRegis · February 2020

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Being a tank main, I sometimes pug veteran pledges. At this point I can tell if someone might be a poor dd just by looking at their character. Do they have a skin? Do they have a title that proves they went through some difficult content? What CP are they? Are they quickly killing the first boss?

I always stay until the first boss, because they're usually super easy. If it takes them ages to dps it down, I'm out. People just don't want to spend hours in a dungeon and I think it's fair.

Yes, I absolutely agree. If its going to take all week and its clear they don't know mechanics or have the damage, then leave or kick. But wait till the first boss, please.

RodneyRegis · February 2020

mobicera wrote: »

As a tank main, well if you are at 60% maybe you have a problem with your build?
If I get into a vet dlc and the "dps" has more hp then my tank well I'm not sticking around...
I can teach dungeon mechanics in a dungeon but I'm not here to teach core gameplay mechanics in vet dlcs...
So if it's clear right of the hop that the dps can't actually really fulfill the role, then for my own mental wellbeing I now drop.
I will not be harrassed in a stupid video game trying to explain gameplay...
So I'm sorry that to you tanks are screwing your runs... to me those 5k dps in vet fang lair are screwing my runs...

I've over 1000 cp and have completed everything hard mode except a last couple of dlcs - which is what I'm trying to do at the moment. My dps isnt great on the alt I'm playing at the noment, probably 35 in a single target 4 group, but I stay alive and that's plenty for any content.

Yesterday in DoM the first tank left before the group was formed, and the second tried to kick the 450 dd and healer for 10 minutes. We'd have been quicker to try the first boss and seen how it went.

AgaTheGreat · February 2020

@RodneyRegis It would have gone badly with a 450 CP DD. They don't have any understanding of rotation or mechanics at this level. It's so easy to farm CP nowadays that this person might have played only for a month. No point struggling in a vet dlc dungeon.

FierceSam · February 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

If your tank let the entire group die from one shots on the first group in elden hollow two...I am indeed suggesting your tank carries a smidge of responsibility.

I know, I have some crazy theories.

That depends... that first room can be easy if you let the tank in first and allow them to control the room, nicely stacking everything for the dds to beat on. It can be a s***show if dds go running in and pulling things all over the place. And that’s not on the tank.

As a tank, if the dds rushed in and messed things up I might let them die so they can appreciate how messy they’ve made things. Because EH2 has a lot of messy pulls that are easy if you’re disciplined, but a wipefest if you’re an uncoordinated rabble. Then we’d go again, do it the simple way and everyone’s a winner.

In terms of rushing all about, my tank has a limited amount of stamina, which I’m not wasting running after YOLOing dds who should know better chasing after single targets. He’s going to conserve his energy, get there at a sensible pace and then we’re going to rack, stack and kill them all.

FierceSam · February 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

Of course they ought to get their act together. Hey, I pug a LOT. And I will not deny that some spectacular stupidity happens.

A few days ago I pugged vet scale caller with a girl so amazingly drunk that she ended up in Cyrodiil DURING the dungeon run not knowing how she got there.

LOL

I know that poison thing on the last boss is harsh, but that just takes rage quitting to a whole new level.

Have an awesome.

Chaos2088 · February 2020

I get what you mean, recently had the tank and healer try and kick the other DD cas they were only cp90, we were doing a pug vet fungal 2. I voted to keep the player all the time cas I know I can carry with the damage easy.....we did it fine and the cp90 died a few times but meh...we completed it.

D0PAMINE · February 2020

idk wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Go play a tank and solve the problem

Every one of my characters can perform multiple roles. Some can perform all three. I have tanked vet DLC dungeons on both magicka and stam DPS without changing CP or attributes. Just slotting different gear and skills.

So yes, it is a solution. Though I prefer to preform my group from one of my raid guilds and sometimes from a social guild I am in. Very smooth runs.

I've found that I can tank with almost any DPS character I have if I had tanked the dungeon previously on my real Tank and knew the mechanics well. Makes for some interesting runs lol.

BejaProphet · February 2020

Had another example yesterday of why tanks should give people a chance.

Used dungeon finder to pug vet frost vault. Most will agree that is among the most difficult of dungeons.

At one point we had to explain to one of the players what we meant by “bash.” He didn’t even know what we meant when we explained the fourth boss had to be bashed.

How does the story end? We beat the dungeon. That player included.

You are competent if you can beat a dungeon. But great players are good enough to help others up their game.

Stick it out tanks! Give people a chance. I mean, for at least fifteen minutes you have nothing to loose right? And it might surprise you how fast people improve when a good player gives them a moment!

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

lozq wrote: »

I actually really like the idea of unlocking dungeons linearly, like they unlock as you level from L1 to CP160. Haven't completed vBC1? Then you can't queue for vMos. When you queue for a random, you're only queuing for the dungeons you're 'eligible' for. Would give a sense of progression, allow players to develop skills in increasingly tougher content and prevent woefully mismatched groups from getting upset when someone is useless/ditches at the start.

And as @FierceSam said, if more people spent a couple of hours levelling S+B then queues would be shorter all round. Try tanking - it's fun!

I agree, dungeons should have some better unlock system so then people are more prepared for them
I main a tank and it's my favorite role. Going to be getting into healing sometime too (I like support roles)

I'd suggest doing the unlock by Undaunted rank (and without giving up the character level gating we have now). That would be imperfect but a nice improvement.

Problem: You can buy Undaunted rank in the Crown Store.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

You can't blame tanks for being discouraged when they queue for a vet dungeon and all 3 teammates get 1 shotted on the first trash mob. Just came out of one. A 10k hp dps, a healer who needs to spend more time keeping himself alive and let the dps die. Sometimes people don't realise they get lucky and got carried until they get into a group with others at their level.

You can’t blame the tank if his three team mates get one shotted? 🤔

It depends on the details.

Actually, I heal in Earthgore, and I see most of my Earthgore procs when a basically good DD Leroys into a trash pack ahead of the tank.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

Had another example yesterday of why tanks should give people a chance.

Used dungeon finder to pug vet frost vault. Most will agree that is among the most difficult of dungeons.

At one point we had to explain to one of the players what we meant by “bash.” He didn’t even know what we meant when we explained the fourth boss had to be bashed.

How does the story end? We beat the dungeon. That player included.

You are competent if you can beat a dungeon. But great players are good enough to help others up their game.

Stick it out tanks! Give people a chance. I mean, for at least fifteen minutes you have nothing to loose right? And it might surprise you how fast people improve when a good player gives them a moment!

Some of my most enjoyable dungeon experiences have come when players did the basically stupid thing of getting into a dungeon on vet they'd never done on normal. (And it wasn't as stupid before ZoS finally changed the UI to reduce the number of accidental cases of that.) These weren't hardcore DLCs, but not FG1 either; the examples I'm thinking of were WGT and Wayrest 2.

YE4hR1GHT · February 2020

I do sometimes, because after 5 years playing when I enter a vet dungeon and find myself with 3x cp 20 with lvl 30 gear...I know how is gonna end.
I can't spend 3 hours to go past the first boss because these guys want to rush the game.
Sorry, not a charity organization here.

Nemesis7884 · February 2020

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Any vet dungeon these days I reckon 60% the tank flounces before the dungeon even starts. If you don't want to pug stop queuing, it's really no fun waiting half an hour to get in only for the tank to start vote-kicking and then rage-quit before he's even seen the group's performance.

maybe have something like a 24 hour dungeon ban if you leave a dungeon in less tha x minutes for x times within a day

BackStabeth · February 2020

lozq wrote: »

As a tank main, it's because so many people are bloody hopeless. I know there's plenty of exceptions to the rule, but if I see I've been pugged with a bunch of <500CP peeps in vSCP (or basically any vet DLC) and I'm pushed for time/tired then I'm going to assume it's going to take at least an hour and a lot of hand-holding to complete the dungeon. Or more likely a few wipes and everyone drops out after blaming the healer/tank/DPS/RNG/crown crates/cyro lag.

And I'm not being a knob, it's true. There's a lot of players (particularly DD's) who queue for stuff they can't reliably complete. Unless you think you can do any vet dungeon, don't queue for a random one. Some of them are really tough. Queue for them in order, or do it with friends/guildies/someone prepared to explain mechanics/people who don't mind multiple wipes. Most people can't do all the vet dungeons, and certainly not quickly - there's plenty of progression guilds out there.

I actually really like the idea of unlocking dungeons linearly, like they unlock as you level from L1 to CP160. Haven't completed vBC1? Then you can't queue for vMos. When you queue for a random, you're only queuing for the dungeons you're 'eligible' for. Would give a sense of progression, allow players to develop skills in increasingly tougher content and prevent woefully mismatched groups from getting upset when someone is useless/ditches at the start.

And as @FierceSam said, if more people spent a couple of hours levelling S+B then queues would be shorter all round. Try tanking - it's fun!

So in your opinion, people should not join a pug queue for a dungeon they have never done unless they have previously trained up and understand the mechanics of that particular dungeon?

There are plenty of veteran guilds YOU can join. Plenty of people whom you can friend and do dungeons with, as a matter of fact doing dungeons with those people will be far better for you than doing any pugs, ever.

I would suggest those who think they are too good to do anything in a pug with players who are learning to not do pugs. After all what in the world do you think a pug is for? Do you honestly think most people who play in pugs are veteran players looking for other veteran players?

I will never understand, no matter how good a person might be, this elitism snobbery. I don't play any game if I am crunched for time for something in real life, that's just simply not managing your time efficiently and not an excuse for not helping other players, or, OR, asking for help yourself. If you need a bio break, I'm fairly certain if you are already in a pug in a dungeon you will ask if they don't mind waiting a few min, and how often would someone get upset for that? If you got time for a bio break, you have time to help someone that needs it. I'm sure if you are a veteran that you have received a lot of help to get where you are right now. People are constantly helping other people, there is always time for it. Or ask yourself this question, how many times have you done something to cause other people in your pug to have to wait on you, and how many times did you find they had a problem with it.

If you are a veteran player you will automatically know far more people than a new player who is just learning, it's far easier for you to put together a group you might be more comfortable with than it is for a new player. AND that group will always be better for you to play with than queueing with a pug. To be honest, I don't know why veteran players would wan to que for a pug, specially if they are as prejudiced against new players as you seem to be.

If you are a veteran player, there are a lot of guilds that cater to vet players you can join, so you can play with people of the same level of experience and not become so frustrated with new players who need help like you once did.

If you queue for a pug, and are not happy with whom you are teamed up with it's not their fault. After all you are queueing with randoms, and in no MMO that I have ever played over the course of 20 years that has anything to do with queueing in pugs has it ever been the case that you always queue with people who know what they are doing. And frankly, if you like this game and want to continue playing it you should hope that pugs are full of new players willing to lay down money to play this game so that it continues to grow and add more content.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

I've been the best player (by far) in PUGs.
I've been the worst player (by far) in PUGs ... probably more often.

I've had fun both ways.

RodneyRegis · February 2020

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

@RodneyRegis It would have gone badly with a 450 CP DD. They don't have any understanding of rotation or mechanics at this level. It's so easy to farm CP nowadays that this person might have played only for a month. No point struggling in a vet dlc dungeon.

At the risk of repeating myself, try the first boss. He's what, 30 seconds in in DoM? It's not ScP or Mos where you can get to final or penultimate boss before realising you've wasted your time. He's round the first corner and he's a pug killer. In fact he's a tank killer - if the tank can survive the poison and the group can stay together when he hides it's a piece of ***. Get past him and you can tell very quickly if the group will survive if they can get past the non-boss stone watchers first time. In fact most problems I've had in there is when the tank can't withstand damage and hold taunt on the second boss. I have no problem with people leaving or kicking if groups struggle with boss 1 or 2, but at the same time that dungeon has been cleared with one 450 cp infinite times.

thissocalledflower · February 2020

lozq wrote: »

As a tank main, it's because so many people are bloody hopeless. I know there's plenty of exceptions to the rule, but if I see I've been pugged with a bunch of <500CP peeps in vSCP (or basically any vet DLC) and I'm pushed for time/tired then I'm going to assume it's going to take at least an hour and a lot of hand-holding to complete the dungeon. Or more likely a few wipes and everyone drops out after blaming the healer/tank/DPS/RNG/crown crates/cyro lag.

And I'm not being a knob, it's true. There's a lot of players (particularly DD's) who queue for stuff they can't reliably complete. Unless you think you can do any vet dungeon, don't queue for a random one. Some of them are really tough. Queue for them in order, or do it with friends/guildies/someone prepared to explain mechanics/people who don't mind multiple wipes. Most people can't do all the vet dungeons, and certainly not quickly - there's plenty of progression guilds out there.

I actually really like the idea of unlocking dungeons linearly, like they unlock as you level from L1 to CP160. Haven't completed vBC1? Then you can't queue for vMos. When you queue for a random, you're only queuing for the dungeons you're 'eligible' for. Would give a sense of progression, allow players to develop skills in increasingly tougher content and prevent woefully mismatched groups from getting upset when someone is useless/ditches at the start.

And as @FierceSam said, if more people spent a couple of hours levelling S+B then queues would be shorter all round. Try tanking - it's fun!

Unless you've played the vet dungeon, you cant complete the vet dungeon... if you have no patience for people learning the vet dungeon they will never git gud... just like someone did for you.

ZonasArch · February 2020

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Any vet dungeon these days I reckon 60% the tank flounces before the dungeon even starts. If you don't want to pug stop queuing, it's really no fun waiting half an hour to get in only for the tank to start vote-kicking and then rage-quit before he's even seen the group's performance.

Solution for you, roll a tank. And you know it's true.

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2020

In most non-vet dungeons a group can get away without a tank. Most level 2 dungeons and DLC dungeons a tank improves the group synergy and actually decreases the amount of time it takes to beat content as enemies are held in place and receive proper debuffs.

I have ran plenty of Vet Dungeons and when there is a fake healer it isn't as bad as tanks and DPS can easily remedy the issue by using healing ability. However, when you have a fake tank you miss out on the tank ability to hold threat, take the higher damaging hits, and their buffs/debuffs. All of these things can turn the tide in a run. It also improves the run.

Tanks initiating a kick maybe due to the dungeon or prior experience with the player they are kicking.

BejaProphet wrote: »

If your tank let the entire group die from one shots on the first group in elden hollow two...I am indeed suggesting your tank carries a smidge of responsibility.

I know, I have some crazy theories.

If you are dying from the adds than its the fault of the rest of the group for not properly buffing up their HP. Been into that dungeon plenty and had a group of 3 DD all with around 19K health. No one was one shotted and we made it fine through the dungeon. I didn't like how it played out as a healer as my magika bar was strained even with high potion use. That run was the longest Vet Elden Hollow 2 I have have been through because there was no tank.

I've played other games where players always did speed runs and went without a tank. My group was doing those same dungeons with a tank and we were beating the content just as fast as the so called speed groups that used every trick in the book to get faster time. My experience playing many MMOs is that when there is group up content going with the trinity of DD, Tank and Healer ensure success. Running any other combo does ensure success or improved run times.

As someone that likes to play support roles; I hope the devs add a feature rate character for their role played. This way if a player Q's a character as a tank and plays DPS, the group can rate that play as bad or no tank, etc...

Speaking of tanks; on my healer when I play a normal dungeon I rarely see anyone playing as a tank. When I play on my tank that is all see. Players playing as tanks but Q'd as a DPS.

Donny_Vito · February 2020

Once you roll a tank, you'll find out why so many tanks bounce. I usually do a few pulls and maybe the first boss depending on the dungeon, and then I decide very quickly if it's worth my time to continue. I'd honestly rather have a bad tank than I would bad dps.

jm42 · February 2020

lozq wrote: »

I agree, dungeons should have some better unlock system so then people are more prepared for them
I main a tank and it's my favorite role. Going to be getting into healing sometime too (I like support roles)

Dungeons should just have an option to disable DLC, problem is solved

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Once you roll a tank, you'll find out why so many tanks bounce. I usually do a few pulls and maybe the first boss depending on the dungeon, and then I decide very quickly if it's worth my time to continue. I'd honestly rather have a bad tank than I would bad dps.

Anyone who plays their role badly should be kicked. Anyone who isn't willing to learn mechanics should be kicked.

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

@RodneyRegis It would have gone badly with a 450 CP DD. They don't have any understanding of rotation or mechanics at this level. It's so easy to farm CP nowadays that this person might have played only for a month. No point struggling in a vet dlc dungeon.

I've seen 810 players have no clue either. CP is just a way for players to improve stats, it doesn't mean skill.

RodneyRegis · February 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

In most non-vet dungeons a group can get away without a tank. Most level 2 dungeons and DLC dungeons a tank improves the group synergy and actually decreases the amount of time it takes to beat content as enemies are held in place and receive proper debuffs.

I have ran plenty of Vet Dungeons and when there is a fake healer it isn't as bad as tanks and DPS can easily remedy the issue by using healing ability. However, when you have a fake tank you miss out on the tank ability to hold threat, take the higher damaging hits, and their buffs/debuffs. All of these things can turn the tide in a run. It also improves the run.

Tanks initiating a kick maybe due to the dungeon or prior experience with the player they are kicking.

BejaProphet wrote: »

If your tank let the entire group die from one shots on the first group in elden hollow two...I am indeed suggesting your tank carries a smidge of responsibility.

I know, I have some crazy theories.

If you are dying from the adds than its the fault of the rest of the group for not properly buffing up their HP. Been into that dungeon plenty and had a group of 3 DD all with around 19K health. No one was one shotted and we made it fine through the dungeon. I didn't like how it played out as a healer as my magika bar was strained even with high potion use. That run was the longest Vet Elden Hollow 2 I have have been through because there was no tank.

I've played other games where players always did speed runs and went without a tank. My group was doing those same dungeons with a tank and we were beating the content just as fast as the so called speed groups that used every trick in the book to get faster time. My experience playing many MMOs is that when there is group up content going with the trinity of DD, Tank and Healer ensure success. Running any other combo does ensure success or improved run times.

As someone that likes to play support roles; I hope the devs add a feature rate character for their role played. This way if a player Q's a character as a tank and plays DPS, the group can rate that play as bad or no tank, etc...

Speaking of tanks; on my healer when I play a normal dungeon I rarely see anyone playing as a tank. When I play on my tank that is all see. Players playing as tanks but Q'd as a DPS.

Yeah, majority of normal dungeons need no tank or healer.