Confusions on threads about animation cancelling.
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Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AC is what is it is, removal of it will not mean 7 million+ player leave at all, what it will mean is "end game" dps will drop and those who play "mid game" will be closer to ceiling imposed by the elite. it wont ruin the game at all8 -
Brandathorbel✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.
Weave alone adds 30-40k. So, yeah, it'd be a bit more than just taking that off the top. If you weren't already a god tier player, you'd watch all the endgame content get yanked out of your hands. As with a lot of suggestions, it would harm the progression players way more than the ones at the top.
And you know what would happen? The game would feel terrible. Go play a hotbar cooldown MMO with action queuing, and marvel at how unresponsive it feels.
Without any hyperbole, removing animation canceling would kill the game. Full stop.
I think the vast amount of people in the game wouldn't even notice. Only the hardcore people would care and many of them already left because of all the patch bs.5 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO combat is praised for being dynamic and reactive. Gee, what do you think makes it like that?
PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat4 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.
Weave alone adds 30-40k. So, yeah, it'd be a bit more than just taking that off the top. If you weren't already a god tier player, you'd watch all the endgame content get yanked out of your hands. As with a lot of suggestions, it would harm the progression players way more than the ones at the top.
And you know what would happen? The game would feel terrible. Go play a hotbar cooldown MMO with action queuing, and marvel at how unresponsive it feels.
Without any hyperbole, removing animation canceling would kill the game. Full stop.
I think the vast amount of people in the game wouldn't even notice. Only the hardcore people would care and many of them already left because of all the patch bs.
Everyone would notice the removal of block cancel, dodge roll cancel, and swap cancel. If you had to wait for animations to complete before performing these actions, combat would feel totally screwed up.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”6 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AgaTheGreat wrote: »ESO combat is praised for being dynamic and reactive. Gee, what do you think makes it like that?
Well, you could still have "dynamic & reactive" if you fixed animation canceling so it worked like in fighting games/etc. i.e, if it canceled the action so you could block or dodge, rather than speeding up the action so you can jam twice as many actions into the same amount of time.5 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »AC is what is it is, removal of it will not mean 7 million+ player leave at all, what it will mean is "end game" dps will drop and those who play "mid game" will be closer to ceiling imposed by the elite. it wont ruin the game at all
You think mid game players don't use animation cancelling? The difference between end and mid game is experience and knowledge of the mechanics. Not DPS.Kiralyn2000 wrote: »AgaTheGreat wrote: »ESO combat is praised for being dynamic and reactive. Gee, what do you think makes it like that?
Well, you could still have "dynamic & reactive" if you fixed animation canceling so it worked like in fighting games/etc. i.e, if it canceled the action so you could block or dodge, rather than speeding up the action so you can jam twice as many actions into the same amount of time.
How many times do people have to repeat that global cooldown prevents you from firing more than one skill per second? Animation cancelling and weaving is just a visual but also makes the game fluidity better. If you want to remove animation cancelling then you have to remove dodge roll and block because both of these will cancel the animation instantly with a few exceptions. Because they're necessary for damage mitigation.
What it basically means, that what you propose will never happen. I hate doing that because that's never the answer to anything but if you really can't live with how combat works in eso, it might be time to either find another game, or learn to embrace it.
If you do decide to embrace how the combat works, it's going to take you a week or two to pull satisfactory numbers. It just takes effort should you be willing to give.PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat7 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »I just can't wrap my head around the logic, I would 100% leave if they removed animation cancelling. People probably dont realise how much of it is involved in this game. Every time you weapon swap, roll dodge or block its cancelling an animation. Removing it would destroy the combat, Light attack weaving is where the bulk of extra dps comes from anyway????????
Like anybody else you wouldn't leave and you know it. You would adjust as still get by.
AC was never meant to be part of the game. People figured how to do it, and ZoS never removed it.
It gives people with better machines and connections an advantage in PvP. PvE not so much as anybody can learn to do it.4 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »AgaTheGreat wrote: »ESO combat is praised for being dynamic and reactive. Gee, what do you think makes it like that?
Well, you could still have "dynamic & reactive" if you fixed animation canceling so it worked like in fighting games/etc. i.e, if it canceled the action so you could block or dodge, rather than speeding up the action so you can jam twice as many actions into the same amount of time.
You can't. No, seriously. Dynamically processing animations for every single player will overload the server within seconds. No MMO in the world is capable of doing that. Something that works in a 1v1 fighting game or a 4v4 arena game is not applicable to MMOs with significantly increased player count.5 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here, let us remove AC, how do you like your new 20k dps? Oh you can't clear content anymore? Here is a 50 percent buff to every skill.
Oh wait, now you are skipping mechs? Try this 80 percent nerf.
Ah it seems we nerfed it a bit too much, here is a 20 percent buff. And a new set.
Happy? No?
#zosbalance
I mean they're already doing this so...1 -
MCBIZZLE300✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.
Weave alone adds 30-40k. So, yeah, it'd be a bit more than just taking that off the top. If you weren't already a god tier player, you'd watch all the endgame content get yanked out of your hands. As with a lot of suggestions, it would harm the progression players way more than the ones at the top.
And you know what would happen? The game would feel terrible. Go play a hotbar cooldown MMO with action queuing, and marvel at how unresponsive it feels.
Without any hyperbole, removing animation canceling would kill the game. Full stop.
I think the vast amount of people in the game wouldn't even notice. Only the hardcore people would care and many of them already left because of all the patch bs.
Everyone would notice the removal of block cancel, dodge roll cancel, and swap cancel. If you had to wait for animations to complete before performing these actions, combat would feel totally screwed up.
This is what i mean ^ itd be awful.2 -
MCBIZZLE300✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel
No they can't, and that's the whole issue. /shrug
(Personally, I know I'm not doing it - I'm not firing actions nearly fast enough that I could even be doing it accidentally - but as I don't do "needs high DPS" group content, it's not an issue for me. I don't even have a 'rotation', because I only solo. Without a tank holding the targets in place, it kind of hard to have a DPS rotation.)
Have you ever pressed an ability then switched bars before the ability animation has ended? Because if you have thats animation cancelling. I guarantee you have.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »(Personally, I know I'm not doing it - I'm not firing actions nearly fast enough that I could even be doing it accidentally - but as I don't do "needs high DPS" group content, it's not an issue for me. I don't even have a 'rotation', because I only solo. Without a tank holding the targets in place, it kind of hard to have a DPS rotation.)
Have you ever pressed an ability then switched bars before the ability animation has ended? Because if you have thats animation cancelling. I guarantee you have.
That would involve having a second bar set up. So, no.
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »Recently I have been seeing a lot of threads regarding animation cancelling and that it should be removed/changed from certain if not all abilities. In my opinion animation cancelling is what makes the combat in this game fluid and enjoyable. This applies to both PVE and PVP and I feel like the removal of it would also result in the removal of over half the playerbase. Can someone please shed some light as to why its becoming a common theme to see this feature removed from the game as the posts don't seem to give a reason?
It's worth noting that there's also a fair amount of misrepresentation that goes on of those who want to see animation cancelling changed.
Ideally, you want the visuals in a video game to match up with what is happening on the back end with damage calculations and stuff like that. In ESO, this is generally not the case. When we cancel an attack with block, for instance, only the attack animation is cancelled, not the damage from the attack. It should be both, but ESO is set up to calculate the effect of abilities at the very start of animations instead of at a midpoint or the end. This results in some significant mismatch between what our characters look like they are doing and what is actually being calculated in the game. It's akin to typing/texting in a response in this forum and the text appearing in spite of your hands not actually moving to type anything.
Well, perhaps everyone in the 2nd Era has psi powers. None of us actually have to physically swing our swords to damage enemies, it just happens through psi powers.2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Look, nobody forces you to animation cancel. If you don't like animation cancelling, then don't animation cancel, it's that simple! You won't be able to pull 40k+ DPS and complete some of the more difficult vet trials, but that's okay because you're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong though, is asking ZOS to remove AC because you can't do it. It's like me asking the basketball coach to ban 3-pointers because I can't shoot as good as my teammates do. Leave AC as it is so players who care about improving and progressing can have something to look forward to. Nobody forces you to animation cancel, so please stop with all these AC nerf threads..
Edited by StaticWave on January 30, 2020 7:29PM5 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think it’s because some people feel that AC is why their DPS is so much lower than other players. While probably true in some cases, not for all. My internet and hardware only support up to about 30k on a 3 mill dummy with animation cancelling, if I go any faster it bugs and lags out and I lose DPS. So, in my self-serving opinion, an approximate DPS cap acheievable to all would be my primary objective, ac or not.
Feels bad that on account of geography and hardware issues I’m excluded for much of the game.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »AC is what is it is, removal of it will not mean 7 million+ player leave at all, what it will mean is "end game" dps will drop and those who play "mid game" will be closer to ceiling imposed by the elite. it wont ruin the game at all
Damage ceilings aren't imposed by players, they're the functional limit of what a class is capable of. What you're thinking of are player mandated thresholds, which wouldn't matter that much, because, those "mid-game" DPS would be unable to clear the Crag trials, to say nothing of more advanced content.0 -
x48rph✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate all of the canceling because it's just unrealistic and leads to clunky combat, it has nothing to do with being able to do it, or dps numbers, or whatever. Not clunky in the sense of not being fluid but clunky that I can cram a light attack, ability, and a bash into like a half of second which is so fast the other player will pretty much only see the bash animation if their lucky but yet get hit by multiple things. Sorry but when you swing a sword at someone it should at least have to 'connect' to do some damage. Lets compare it to boxing. I can throw a jab at you , or a combination of jabs, and if I was a really good boxer they could come incredibly quick but each one still does have to connect to hurt you and I do have pull the hand back to hit you again, otherwise I'm just rubbing my glove in your face, and if in the middle of that I decide to pull back and block, the punches don't continue on their way and still land anyway while I'm blocking. And before someone points it out I know, this is a video game, not real life, it's just an easy example of what I'm talking about.3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry but when you swing a sword at someone it should at least have to 'connect' to do some damage.
That is how it works in ESO. At least, most of the time.
Animations have two parts: A wind up, and a cool down.
The windup is when you start swinging at something, up to the moment of impact. The cooldown is everything that follows, and is still part of the animation.
Now, it's possible there may be an ability that applies missynced, but for the most, if you're swinging on someone, you do need to conect, before you can "safely" cancel the animation.
If someone's telling you, "oh, you can just instantly deal damage and then use a different ability, no, that's not the game works most of the time.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »I like animation canceling, it’s a challenge to get “just right” and necessary to hit the highest sustained dps numbers.
BUT, Zeni keeps nerfing and gutting things in attempt to curb power creep and close the gap between 55k dps raiders and the average player. They nerf skills, and sets, and CP scaling. They introduce “complex” mechanics instead of all-out dps races. All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.
To preserve the fast paced feel of combat, and survivability, they need to retain the ability to block cancel, so you don’t get stuck in a cast or channel, but they should make it cancel the outgoing damage as well.
But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel are all integral to the game imo. PvP in particular would just be awful without it. The game can't be handed to everyone, games are meant to be challenging thats the whole point.
You are correct. The average player can learn to AC. In PvE the most basic aspect of AC is weaving basic attacks into skills and bar swap. Pretty much that is what the top players do. In the first year of this game I lead a group that was mostly causal and still are to this day. They learned to weave basic attacks just fine with some light guidance. As for canceling via bar swap that comes naturally when one gets used using both bars in a rotation and is fairly low skill level stuff.
So in reality, outside of handicaps that provide a challenge everyone can AC. It is not that complicated if they are wiling to put a little effort into it. Many probably do it without knowing they are.1 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭do we need ani-canceling?
the answer is yes for the part related to quick situative combat reactions
like dodge roll, block etc. of course it can come in form of skill cancelling
by those movs but we have what we have
as for most used part of ani-cancel known as weave...competitve DD have
no options to NOT doing ani-cancel when in comes to squeeze numbers
can i do it? yes ofc and in all possible forms including bash weave
do i like it? hell no...i actually hardly can imagine a person who can be
pleased by a situation where turning into a click bot monkey with
a metronome is the only form of competitve endgame0 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've said this and will say again
Animation cancelling aint what one can call skill if that's the case then will you say it takes skill for anyone able to use mouse cursor in a pc?
You can't call it a skill if it depends upon various conditions for skill is independent
For instance take aiming in fps that requires skill for the more precision u have the better u get and off all "skill" don't develop overnight it takes lots of time and effort so how can one relate mashing two buttons simultaneously with skill?2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AgaTheGreat wrote: »The only people who want it removed are those who don't know how to do it, are scrubs or just simply are lazy and jealous that others can.
If ZOS had any (business) sense, they wouldn't listen to people like you and would listen to people concerned about the retention of players in the game.
There is a constant stream of very new players, but the vast majority of them seem to leave after a few weeks, or (at best) a few months.
1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is becaus potatoes like to potatoe, which is not possible outside zergs as long as there is a certain skill factor like AC. Also some people come from other MMOs like WOW and don't nderstand that one mustn't be like the other.
At least those "potatoes" can probably spell potato.
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Protossyder✭✭✭✭I've said this and will say again
Animation cancelling aint what one can call skill if that's the case then will you say it takes skill for anyone able to use mouse cursor in a pc?
You can't call it a skill if it depends upon various conditions for skill is independent
For instance take aiming in fps that requires skill for the more precision u have the better u get and off all "skill" don't develop overnight it takes lots of time and effort so how can one relate mashing two buttons simultaneously with skill?
Then prove it? Prove that it doesn't take practice and skill to do it. As DD for example. And to make it comparable you will weave on a Raid Dummy and show us the sets, skills, cps, bufffood, mundus, race, class you are using. Taking crit luck into account you should be at one level as every pro player using the same setup.
You're lucky that this kind of animation canceling can be measured so easily, so go on and prove your point.
@r34lianEdited by Protossyder on February 1, 2020 5:29PMCharacters worth mentioning:Daedrós - Magicka DK - Altmer - PvE & PvP - Emperor - IR - GH - TTTArenas: vDSA (~46k) - vMA (~586k)
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Devoured-his-siblings - DK Tank - Argonian - PvE - Unchained
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PC - EU4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Look, nobody forces you to animation cancel. If you don't like animation cancelling, then don't animation cancel, it's that simple! You won't be able to pull 40k+ DPS and complete some of the more difficult vet trials, but that's okay because you're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong though, is asking ZOS to remove AC because you can't do it. It's like me asking the basketball coach to ban 3-pointers because I can't shoot as good as my teammates do. Leave AC as it is so players who care about improving and progressing can have something to look forward to. Nobody forces you to animation cancel, so please stop with all these AC nerf threads..
Eh, this is always the type of excuse given for everything like this, but we all know this is not how it works, in reality.
In the best games, there is a logical, smooth, learning curve.
You get just better instinctively, without really trying, as long as you play enough.
Whereas, if you allow a separate, unnatural type of accidental-occurrence "mechanic", like this one, you just end up with a huge and permanent gulf between two, completely separate, tiers of players and that never ends well.
Edited by Tigerseye on February 1, 2020 11:11AM0 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »Can someone please shed some light as to why its becoming a common theme to see this feature removed from the game
Because they need to L2P.Edited by Vietfox on February 1, 2020 11:31AM3 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AgaTheGreat wrote: »The only people who want it removed are those who don't know how to do it, are scrubs or just simply are lazy and jealous that others can.
If ZOS had any (business) sense, they wouldn't listen to people like you and would listen to people concerned about the retention of players in the game.
There is a constant stream of very new players, but the vast majority of them seem to leave after a few weeks, or (at best) a few months.
But that's the intended target audience for ZOS. They are not interested in long term player retention. Get a casual in, sell them the newest chapter, let them hang around and do some questing for a month or so, they'll probably buy a cosmetic or two from the Crown Store while they are at it. And then say them goodbye for 3-4 months until the next DLC is released. And the cycle starts again.
typoEdited by Royaji on February 1, 2020 12:20PM0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paramedicus wrote: »MCBIZZLE300
Confusion comes from reluctance to understand opinions of other people.
So every time someone gives reasonable argument against AC and proposes mechanic that could replace it or at least that would reduce it's offensive value - you will get 3 same answers:
1) iT WuD MakEE GamEEe UnPLiaBLEE!1111
2) git gut lol
3) no point talking, devs won't do anything. close forums plz
Someone again makes topic about AC so this cycle may continue. And spining around too fast may make you dizzy and confused.
I am still waiting to see reasonable argument against AC rather then :
1) It's a bug ZoS couldnt fix , it needs to be removed
2) it feels unnatural , it needs to be removed
3) it gives too much adventage , it needs to be removed
I am also still waiting to see someone proposing mechanic to replace AC that wouldnt suck or wouldnt be nonsensical. Most of the time when people propose their ideas to replace or soften AC they dont even have full understanding of how AC works thus their ideas makes little if any sense.3
