Confusions on threads about animation cancelling.

Juhasow

Reverb wrote: »

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I like animation canceling, it’s a challenge to get “just right” and necessary to hit the highest sustained dps numbers.

BUT, Zeni keeps nerfing and gutting things in attempt to curb power creep and close the gap between 55k dps raiders and the average player. They nerf skills, and sets, and CP scaling. They introduce “complex” mechanics instead of all-out dps races. All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.

To preserve the fast paced feel of combat, and survivability, they need to retain the ability to block cancel, so you don’t get stuck in a cast or channel, but they should make it cancel the outgoing damage as well.

But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel are all integral to the game imo. PvP in particular would just be awful without it. The game can't be handed to everyone, games are meant to be challenging thats the whole point.

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I like animation canceling, it’s a challenge to get “just right” and necessary to hit the highest sustained dps numbers.

BUT, Zeni keeps nerfing and gutting things in attempt to curb power creep and close the gap between 55k dps raiders and the average player. They nerf skills, and sets, and CP scaling. They introduce “complex” mechanics instead of all-out dps races. All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.

To preserve the fast paced feel of combat, and survivability, they need to retain the ability to block cancel, so you don’t get stuck in a cast or channel, but they should make it cancel the outgoing damage as well.

But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel are all integral to the game imo. PvP in particular would just be awful without it. The game can't be handed to everyone, games are meant to be challenging thats the whole point.

You’d think so, but no. The nearly 6 years eso has been on the market has taught us that the average player can’t do those things. That somehow a huge percentage of people in the dungeon queues (and even in our own guilds) struggle to get even 20k dps. We can see over and over that challenge is not the whole point of a game for many many people.

My point is that removing a/c is the easiest way to drop the ceiling and get the combat team off the nerf cycle. They’ve made a lot of bad decisions to try and close the gap and curb power creep.

And if it’s challenge you want, think about how much more challenging it will be for us who are used to blowing through content when we have to face it with 20k less dps per person.

People who suck today will also suck tomorrow if AC would be removed. AC is not the reason why they cannot pull 20k DPS. You can pull more then that just by pressing 1 button endlesly as I proved here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-and-dragonhold-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-vet-content/p1

BNOC

Tigerseye wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

The only people who want it removed are those who don't know how to do it, are scrubs or just simply are lazy and jealous that others can.

If ZOS had any (business) sense, they wouldn't listen to people like you and would listen to people concerned about the retention of players in the game.

There is a constant stream of very new players, but the vast majority of them seem to leave after a few weeks, or (at best) a few months.

What on earth would retention of new players have to do with ac? Absolutely nothing.

New players are at massive disadvantages and with the CP and crafting systems, I can guarantee it has nothing to do with ac.

If ZOS had any (business) sense, the cp system would be the first thing to go as it means you’re 6 months behind everyone else the second you start playing, instead of a couple days.

If you’re so concerned about retention, be looking to make serious changes to those systems instead of living on the idea that ac is pushing people away.

AC is literally the most basic skill to pull off, seriously, a child can pull off ac. People need to seriously evaluate what they’re doing on games; not everyone is entitled to compete and or complete, just because they own the game.




[Edit to remove quoted content]

starkerealm

Tigerseye wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

The only people who want it removed are those who don't know how to do it, are scrubs or just simply are lazy and jealous that others can.

If ZOS had any (business) sense, they wouldn't listen to people like you and would listen to people concerned about the retention of players in the game.

There is a constant stream of very new players, but the vast majority of them seem to leave after a few weeks, or (at best) a few months.

Believe it or not, people playing a game for a few days and then wandering off is the norm, industry wide. Very few players stick with a game for any length of time. In that sense, ESO's unusual for how long people stick around in the first place.

Compare that to MMOs that launched around the same time as ESO, with hotbar combat system... and you'll find that none of them survived.

Paramedicus

Juhasow wrote: »

I am still waiting to see reasonable argument against AC rather then :

1) It's a bug ZoS couldnt fix , it needs to be removed
2) it feels unnatural , it needs to be removed
3) it gives too much adventage , it needs to be removed

All of those are reasonable, which does'nt mean that all must be convincing for you.

1) Combat with AC looks buggy and no serious game should look like it was still in alpha stage. Beside that "AC system" is unpolished, if ZoS wanted to embrace it, they should think how to implement it into combat rather than leaving as it was. By polishing I mean adding some conditions how, when and where you can use it, so it would require more skill and situational awareness. ATM ESO combat seems half baked.

2) It feels unnatural, is hard to notice and is counterintuitive. Is it reasonable to have some major mechanic in game hidden? How many people would knew that weaving is actually a big deal without watching some yt tutorial or hearing about it from others? Game should learn you important mechanics and ESO does that usually: you learn importance of blocking by seeing yellow sparks everytime mob do HA, you learn to interrupt when you see red sparks, you learn importance of environmental awareness when AoE is telegraphed by "red" (and yet many people still don't learn those basics). How do you learn about importance of weaving? By some tip on loading screen? Isn't that a joke? Beside that, being able to finish action without finishing it may seem like going too deep into quantum mechanics science fiction territory for ESO :P

3) Skill gap between "potatoes" and "elite" is big enough even without weaving (i wonder if anyone will oppose now and say that this is one thing that makes him better). Still I would'nt just remove AC from game and leave combat in that state.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am also still waiting to see someone proposing mechanic to replace AC that wouldnt suck or wouldnt be nonsensical. Most of the time when people propose their ideas to replace or soften AC they dont even have full understanding of how AC works thus their ideas makes little if any sense.

I would also like to see reasonable arguments for AC beside 'l2p potatoe' because ESO is M+ rated and teenagers shouldn't play it (joke inb4 triggered comments). I think that you would experience more constructive discussion if so many of comments weren't so toxic. But to be fair, I see this overly dramatic attitude on both sides.

Solaire

It's not a "Feature" and the animations are Part of what makes the PVP balanced, most Skills in the game depend on the animations and if you just cancel that you are basically exploiting it, now the Devs already know that, so you aren't breaking any rules, but the thing is most people don't even know about Animation canceling, so it makes it unfair especially for skills that depend on Animations,

i'm not gonna say it should be removed, i think the Skills in general should have faster and lesser slower animations applied to them so the combat will feel fast and fluid.
ESO combat is not fun, and the slow animations makes it even more boring, if they just updated the animations to be a little faster it will make both sides happy,

BUT it may break the balance but once again animation canceling is already breaking balance.

Royaji

Solaire wrote: »

It's not a "Feature" and the animations are Part of what makes the PVP balanced, most Skills in the game depend on the animations and if you just cancel that you are basically exploiting it.

This is a misconception. Animations in ESO are not in any way related to combat balance. They exist entirely client side and are not taken into account for any calculation on the server. When you are seeing the animation of an instant skill, it has already hit you.

Making animations faster will make the game look generally better without affecting combat balance whatsoever.

starkerealm

Solaire wrote: »

It's not a "Feature" and the animations are Part of what makes the PVP balanced, most Skills in the game depend on the animations and if you just cancel that you are basically exploiting it, now the Devs already know that, so you aren't breaking any rules, but the thing is most people don't even know about Animation canceling, so it makes it unfair especially for skills that depend on Animations,

It is literally in the loading screen tip pool. It is in the level up advisor tutorial. The Infuse Weapon skill in the Psijic skill line was designed to push players into practicing animation canceling. At this point, if a player doesn't know about animation canceling, they are deliberately ignoring the game. Saying it's an exploit is like claiming that interrupt is an exploit because most players don't seem to understand that either.

Additionally, the Warden and Necromancer were intentionally balanced around animation canceling. Endgame PvE content has been balanced around animation canceling for years. Balance changes for PvP have been as well. Saying that animation canceling breaks the balance in PvP simply doesn't square with the game you're playing.

Joy_Division

Reverb wrote: »

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I like animation canceling, it’s a challenge to get “just right” and necessary to hit the highest sustained dps numbers.

BUT, Zeni keeps nerfing and gutting things in attempt to curb power creep and close the gap between 55k dps raiders and the average player. They nerf skills, and sets, and CP scaling. They introduce “complex” mechanics instead of all-out dps races. All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.

To preserve the fast paced feel of combat, and survivability, they need to retain the ability to block cancel, so you don’t get stuck in a cast or channel, but they should make it cancel the outgoing damage as well.

But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel are all integral to the game imo. PvP in particular would just be awful without it. The game can't be handed to everyone, games are meant to be challenging thats the whole point.

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I like animation canceling, it’s a challenge to get “just right” and necessary to hit the highest sustained dps numbers.

BUT, Zeni keeps nerfing and gutting things in attempt to curb power creep and close the gap between 55k dps raiders and the average player. They nerf skills, and sets, and CP scaling. They introduce “complex” mechanics instead of all-out dps races. All of this effort, when the fastest way to shave 10k or more dps off the top is to remove animation cancelling.

To preserve the fast paced feel of combat, and survivability, they need to retain the ability to block cancel, so you don’t get stuck in a cast or channel, but they should make it cancel the outgoing damage as well.

But surely the average player can just learn to animation cancel, roll dodge cancel, swap cancel, block cancel are all integral to the game imo. PvP in particular would just be awful without it. The game can't be handed to everyone, games are meant to be challenging thats the whole point.

You’d think so, but no. The nearly 6 years eso has been on the market has taught us that the average player can’t do those things. That somehow a huge percentage of people in the dungeon queues (and even in our own guilds) struggle to get even 20k dps. We can see over and over that challenge is not the whole point of a game for many many people.

My point is that removing a/c is the easiest way to drop the ceiling and get the combat team off the nerf cycle. They’ve made a lot of bad decisions to try and close the gap and curb power creep.

And if it’s challenge you want, think about how much more challenging it will be for us who are used to blowing through content when we have to face it with 20k less dps per person.

If they'll pulling less than 20K DPS, it's not because of animation canceling.

They'll still be poor players and the devs will have to find another way to completely readjust the game to the detriment of those us have loved for 6 years just to make it so poor players don't get waxed in PvP or can do a dungeon hardmode

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