Warden DPS Fix

llBlack_Heartll · January 2020

I’d like to see a couple of changes for the Warden.
Turn Dive into an execute for both Stam and Mag morph. The Stam version would be cool, to do something Similar to Posion Injection.

Then change Falcon Swiftness to a Spammable for Mag and Stam Morphs (Mag - Some thing like Call down the spirt of an Ice Griffith to shoot A shard of ice dealing X amount of damage) but still keep minor berserk, however change it to a timed period 10s or so and remove the speed buffs.

Something needs to change, birds are soo clunky to cast too.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

I’d like to see a couple of changes for the Warden.
Turn Dive into an execute for both Stam and Mag morph. The Stam version would be cool, to do something Similar to Posion Injection.

Then change Falcon Swiftness to a Spammable for Mag and Stam Morphs (Mag - Some thing like Call down the spirt of an Ice Griffith to shoot A shard of ice dealing X amount of damage) but still keep minor berserk, however change it to a timed period 10s or so and remove the speed buffs.

Something needs to change, birds are soo clunky to cast too.

Something does need to change. and it seems to me like they are now getting there bit-by-bit. after implementing our Glacial Presence suggestion.
not an awful idea about dive, But i don't really think changing falcon's like that is a good idea. However, what i think i'd do for the execute is make lotus blossom increase light and heavy attack damage to low health enemies, being a smaller execute that is complementary to bear, while giving green lotus additional targets to heal with a light attack. (also give lotus blossom back it's appealing visual effect it gives to weapons). For dive, they either need to increase it's travel speed more, or revert it back to it's old speed and increase its damage to what it once was for the screaming cliff racer morph, then they need to come up with a better idea than what they currently have for off balance's proc. it's contradictory to current gameplay as it forces you to create space when no other skill forces you to do that. oh, and change screaming cliff racer's morph effect to be either unique, or work with this new off balance effect. with cutting dive, just removing the off balance requirement for the bleeds should make it good. I no longer believe that we will need minor berserk on bird of prey once we get a good amount of damage skills that we are happy with, and they might be able to reduce down the piercing cold damage buff. again, only when we have what we need. for now these bandaid fixes keep our class at an okay standard until we receive the much needed fixes under the hood.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

However, what i think i'd do for the execute is make lotus blossom increase light and heavy attack damage to low health enemies, being a smaller execute that is complementary to bear, while giving green lotus additional targets to heal with a light attack. (also give lotus blossom back it's appealing visual effect it gives to weapons)

Oof, honestly, that would just push me further from Warden. One of our biggest issues early on was Stamden felt like a class that rolled like 20 buffs just to be competitive. I do NOT want a return to that. It felt so incredibly bad. Unless it was just for having it slotted and not active, that'd be fine.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

However, what i think i'd do for the execute is make lotus blossom increase light and heavy attack damage to low health enemies, being a smaller execute that is complementary to bear, while giving green lotus additional targets to heal with a light attack. (also give lotus blossom back it's appealing visual effect it gives to weapons)

Oof, honestly, that would just push me further from Warden. One of our biggest issues early on was Stamden felt like a class that rolled like 20 buffs just to be competitive. I do NOT want a return to that. It felt so incredibly bad. Unless it was just for having it slotted and not active, that'd be fine.

the change to green lotus was a suggestion for stam healers mainly because i know they're out there and want help, it also wouldn't hurt pvp stamden. it's not a pve stamden change. i suggested the small execute for the magicka warden because stamina warden has access to executes that aren't just the bear claw.

Olupajmibanan · January 2020

I know this is not a real solution, but at least make Advanced Species passive 3% again (like it was in the past). Warden dps relatively to other classes has gotten so much lower that increasing the passive to 3% from 2% could only help.

Zer0_CooL · January 2020

I stoped reading after "Turn Dive into an execute"

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I know this is not a real solution, but at least make Advanced Species passive 3% again (like it was in the past). Warden dps relatively to other classes has gotten so much lower that increasing the passive to 3% from 2% could only help.

I genuinely don't understand why this hasn't already happened. It wasn't game-breaking when they nerfed the hell out of it. This still boggles my damn mind to this day. I feel like that change was literally just to change something. Devs and Zos employees never responded to any questions regarding direction of that change from myself and many other Warden players. I don't believe that change had any direction to start with, at least not within the context of no other meaningful changes to counter-balance it.

My guess is PVP whining.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I know this is not a real solution, but at least make Advanced Species passive 3% again (like it was in the past). Warden dps relatively to other classes has gotten so much lower that increasing the passive to 3% from 2% could only help.

I genuinely don't understand why this hasn't already happened. It wasn't game-breaking when they nerfed the hell out of it. This still boggles my damn mind to this day. I feel like that change was literally just to change something. Devs and Zos employees never responded to any questions regarding direction of that change from myself and many other Warden players. I don't believe that change had any direction to start with, at least not within the context of no other meaningful changes to counter-balance it.

My guess is PVP whining.

my guess is it was nerfed back so that it didn't feel like it was punishing to slot anything other than the animal companions skills. i am totally for that and i hated the buff to advanced species.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

my guess is it was nerfed back so that it didn't feel like it was punishing to slot anything other than the animal companions skills. i am totally for that and i hated the buff to advanced species.

I get that side of it, but your development plan simply can't be "We'd like to see less AC skills required, so nerf this, and we'll revisit it in a year or so". That is broken logic. You either need to have a plan to push that patch, or the following one. I personally would love to see their entire development/release schedule change.

Q1: First major balance patch, dungeon DLC
Q2: Full trial (vHOF-quality), chapter
Q3: Second major balance patch, dungeon DLC
Q4: Story, arena/mini-trial

That would give much more overall content, with significantly less sweeping change every three months. When your rotations, gear, builds, everything is changing every three months, it's absolutely jarring to the player. If you aren't willing to follow up your changes with appropriate adjustments quickly, don't make them. I go back to the Heavy Attack changes in Summerset. Were they good changes long-term? Yeah, absolutely. We just had to wait a damn calendar year to really see that, and if i'm blunt, that's unacceptable turnover.

The Advanced Species nerf happened in Scalebreaker, the third DLC of LAST YEAR. We are still waiting for a return on that, and one doesn't appear to be coming this patch, either.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

my guess is it was nerfed back so that it didn't feel like it was punishing to slot anything other than the animal companions skills. i am totally for that and i hated the buff to advanced species.

I get that side of it, but your development plan simply can't be "We'd like to see less AC skills required, so nerf this, and we'll revisit it in a year or so". That is broken logic. You either need to have a plan to push that patch, or the following one. I personally would love to see their entire development/release schedule change.

Q1: First major balance patch, dungeon DLC
Q2: Full trial (vHOF-quality), chapter
Q3: Second major balance patch, dungeon DLC
Q4: Story, arena/mini-trial

That would give much more overall content, with significantly less sweeping change every three months. When your rotations, gear, builds, everything is changing every three months, it's absolutely jarring to the player. If you aren't willing to follow up your changes with appropriate adjustments quickly, don't make them. I go back to the Heavy Attack changes in Summerset. Were they good changes long-term? Yeah, absolutely. We just had to wait a damn calendar year to really see that, and if i'm blunt, that's unacceptable turnover.

The Advanced Species nerf happened in Scalebreaker, the third DLC of LAST YEAR. We are still waiting for a return on that, and one doesn't appear to be coming this patch, either.

I'm not waiting for it to come back, but yeah i mean if it was 1 and 3 for the big performance patches and 2 and 4 for the majority of content, i'd be cool with that. it means that Q2 isn't an overload

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm not waiting for it to come back, but yeah i mean if it was 1 and 3 for the big performance patches and 2 and 4 for the majority of content, i'd be cool with that. it means that Q2 isn't an overload

Sorry, guess I worded that poorly. I didn't mean for that passive specifically to be returned, I meant for a return on the loss. Warden wasn't where Necros or Stamplars are, for example. That change hit them hard and they really haven't recovered in the months since. That's why I said if you have a plan, implement it either the same patch or the next. Don't make changes without compensating adjustments. That's just *** poor design and development.

Skinnycheeks, the guy who's essentially Liko Part Deux, was asked about Stamden in TRE and basically just replied he has a rotation but it "does no damage", which is indicative of the issue. When one of the best players in the world can't even make Stamden meaningful and competitive, you have failed in development.

Freakin_Hytte · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I know this is not a real solution, but at least make Advanced Species passive 3% again (like it was in the past). Warden dps relatively to other classes has gotten so much lower that increasing the passive to 3% from 2% could only help.

I genuinely don't understand why this hasn't already happened. It wasn't game-breaking when they nerfed the hell out of it. This still boggles my damn mind to this day. I feel like that change was literally just to change something. Devs and Zos employees never responded to any questions regarding direction of that change from myself and many other Warden players. I don't believe that change had any direction to start with, at least not within the context of no other meaningful changes to counter-balance it.

My guess is PVP whining.

Believe it or not but it wasn't pvpers fault this time, it only gave 2-3% damage increase at most since wardens in pvp don't really slot that many AC skills on their front bar. That passive was never where the damage of wardens comes from. I never heard a single person asking for a nerf, even in the pvp community it was a weird nerf since it wasn't OP or anything, it was just a good passive to have.

I really hope they change it back and make warden more viable, warden is one of the very few PvE classes I really enjoyed, now it's just collecting dust.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm not waiting for it to come back, but yeah i mean if it was 1 and 3 for the big performance patches and 2 and 4 for the majority of content, i'd be cool with that. it means that Q2 isn't an overload

Sorry, guess I worded that poorly. I didn't mean for that passive specifically to be returned, I meant for a return on the loss.

My bad too. Absolutely this. I can't agree more. But in a substantial form on the skills of the stamden, not a passive buff.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I know this is not a real solution, but at least make Advanced Species passive 3% again (like it was in the past). Warden dps relatively to other classes has gotten so much lower that increasing the passive to 3% from 2% could only help.

I genuinely don't understand why this hasn't already happened. It wasn't game-breaking when they nerfed the hell out of it. This still boggles my damn mind to this day. I feel like that change was literally just to change something. Devs and Zos employees never responded to any questions regarding direction of that change from myself and many other Warden players. I don't believe that change had any direction to start with, at least not within the context of no other meaningful changes to counter-balance it.

My guess is PVP whining.

Believe it or not but it wasn't pvpers fault this time, it only gave 2-3% damage increase at most since wardens in pvp don't really slot that many AC skills on their front bar. That passive was never where the damage of wardens comes from. I never heard a single person asking for a nerf, even in the pvp community it was a weird nerf since it wasn't OP or anything, it was just a good passive to have.

I really hope they change it back and make warden more viable, warden is one of the very few PvE classes I really enjoyed, now it's just collecting dust.

You might hate me for this, but i asked for it to be nerfed due to reasons i listed above and that it was just a bandaid fix. not a real one. I don't recall anyone else asking though. if we can get together on the Frost Discord to discuss changes, i'd be happy to suggest them if we get enough opinions on finalised suggestions. is what we have done for several suggestions, including glacial presence, AB4.0 and the original Arctic Blast Master plan. which was (add old arctic blast's damage, but with magicka damage scaling back onto all morphs of arctic wind, and make the arctic blast morph better for DPS. while we got the former, we did not get the latter.)

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

You might hate me for this, but i asked for it to be nerfed due to reasons i listed above and that it was just a bandaid fix. not a real one. I don't recall anyone else asking though. if we can get together on the Frost Discord to discuss changes, i'd be happy to suggest them if we get enough opinions on finalised suggestions. is what we have done for several suggestions, including glacial presence, AB4.0 and the original Arctic Blast Master plan. which was (add old arctic blast's damage, but with magicka damage scaling back onto all morphs of arctic wind, and make the arctic blast morph better for DPS. while we got the former, we did not get the latter.)

@ESO_Nightingale Honestly, I don't hate you because I think your intentions were good. However, I also think you were highly misguided in believing this change was good short-term, or that Zos would resolve it in any length of time that could be defined as "quick". If you were the driving force behind this change, then yeah, you're basically responsible for Warden DPS being in the dumpster since Scalebreaker.

I think there needs to be more done. We can't keep adding these tiny buffs or buffs that require extremely gimmicky group design or harsh constraints that don't make any sense in the PVE end-game. You do have to take the meta into consideration when making changes, that's vitally important.

Magden was already essentially even with Stamden. This in essence pushes them ahead, as a Magden alone will be higher DPS than a Stamden alone with this change. I have tried to suggest ideas over and over to repair the gap and push Stamden closer to its Stam counterparts, but altering the bleed alone just ain't gonna fix it. We're too damn far behind.

Even if the AC passive was never nerfed and Stamden was left as they were, they'd currently be 4th on the DPS ladder.

1. Stamcro
2. Stamplar
3. Stam Sorc
4. Stamden

I really have no idea why this nerf needed to happen when it did. I've got no issue with nerfing the AC passive, but I hope you learned a valuable lesson about timing being critical. Make sure you're proposing a paired change to counter-balance.

thadjarvis · January 2020

IMO the only way Stamden (or any DPS) can get in is either a ally/group damage or top tier parse. Currently they are the only stam without one: Nec Vuln, Temp fracture, Sorc berserk, DK minor & stagger, NB minor. Understood that DK/NB are often provided by support but at least they have something (depending how stonefist fleshes out, DK tanks may have a hard time with it).

That plus wonky OB rotation and lowest max parse...

The quasi Morag Tong and Bear cast buffs are ideas that would work. That would be the big key imo.

Magden parse may increase enough to be more valuable than NB/Templar (MA), but can they break into the strengthening DK and Necro stack. Don't know but they do not seem to be completely devoid of trial group valued tools/damage like stamden.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Compiling some ideas from other people along with my own, and realizing that the more complex changes aren't going to happen, here are a handful that I think are legit feasible, there's precedent for them, and would give Stamden viability in content as well as encourage groups to want to bring them.

Change One: Cutting Dive
Refine the bleed to not be linked to Off-Balance. Have it simply work off a cooldown with a maximum stack number, and once that stack number is reached, the CD begins. This means the Warden has meaningful control over their DPS, and it also creates a "mini-game" of sorts where the ideal Warden play will revolve around letting each stack tick once before applying the next to maximize bleed damage.

Change Two: Bear
Give the bear active a buff. The best suggestion I have seen that wouldn't be totally game-breaking is Minor Heroism. It isn't in the game at a high level outside of tanks and would bring a unique buff that only DPS can apply. It can be small-scale like War Machine, Warden + 2, or bigger, such as Warden + 5, or even the entire group. This benefits both mag and stam Wardens equally.

Change Three: Growing Swarm
This skill isn't inherently bad, but is arguably outclassed by the Magden variant due to the double-cast mechanic. Here, I would change the buff/debuff entirely. I would remove Minor Vulnerability from the Stamina variant, creating a clear definition between the two specializations, and instead apply a Morag Tong styled buff here, between 8-12% increased Poison damage. I would also have the DoT deal Poison Damage to help unify the Warden's kit somewhat.

THEORY:
One thing i've played with in my head is removing Minor Vuln from bugs entirely, and instead having the Stam morph increase Poison damage, while the Mag morph increases ice + magic damage. Both would scale for their percentage based on offensive stats, the "engulfing flames treatment" to prevent tanks and healers simply taking over their buffing role.

Change Four: Winter's Embrace
This skill is in a weird place, as it exists within the tank tree and only benefits Magicka Wardens. I propose a redesign in the same vein as Ritual of Retribution and Flames of Oblivion. Allow this skill to scale off the highest offensive stat, rather than only magicka. This change benefits Stamden mainly, but creates few to no additional issues. It is irrelevant for PVP, doesn't harm Magden, allows Stamina Wardens to utilize the new Ice passive, and gives Stamina Wardens a 6th class skill that is functional and meaningful to match their Magicka counterparts.

thadjarvis · January 2020

1) Stated perfectly

2) Unique and exclusive to Warden DD's; Example calculation of the potency (yellow are rote assumptions)

I don't think it would be an issue if designed well, but recursive ultimate buff feeding into itself is something to fully think through.

3) Perfect. All other sources of Minor Vulnerability have trade offs (IA, SD, Totem, Lotus, dedicated enchant/traits, Asylum). Warden DDs have it built in while supports give up a slot but get high regen as compensation (even if just back-bar).

Is 2+3 too powerful? DK, Sorc, and Stamplar have two significant ally/group buffs. Necro's beats anything. Magplar/NB have 1. The values of each can be balanced so that the sum of the two doesn't break ZoS's stated desire last summer to avoid making buffs too powerful such that groups have to have a certain class (Necro aside I presume). So, the two buffs would not be too powerful as they can always be adjusted such that they are.

4) @Skjaldbjorn typo on "Winter's Embrace". I believe you intended to type a particular skill.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

1) Stated perfectly

2) Unique and exclusive to Warden DD's; Example calculation of the potency (yellow are rote assumptions)

I don't think it would be an issue if designed well, but recursive ultimate buff feeding into itself is something to fully think through.

3) Perfect. All other sources of Minor Vulnerability have trade offs (IA, SD, Totem, Lotus, dedicated enchant/traits, Asylum). Warden DDs have it built in while supports give up a slot but get high regen as compensation (even if just back-bar).

Is 2+3 too powerful? DK, Sorc, and Stamplar have two significant ally/group buffs. Necro's beats anything. Magplar/NB have 1. The values of each can be balanced so that the sum of the two doesn't break ZoS's stated desire last summer to avoid making buffs too powerful such that groups have to have a certain class (Necro aside I presume). So, the two buffs would not be too powerful as they can always be adjusted such that they are.

4) @Skjaldbjorn typo on "Winter's Embrace". I believe you intended to type a particular skill.

Derp, I meant Winter's Revenge, yeah. Nightingale strongly opposes that, so i'd be for a rework of Arctic Blast to a personal AoE we could use kinda like Ritual, but that's getting a lot of venom as well.

llBlack_Heartll · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Compiling some ideas from other people along with my own, and realizing that the more complex changes aren't going to happen, here are a handful that I think are legit feasible, there's precedent for them, and would give Stamden viability in content as well as encourage groups to want to bring them.

Change One: Cutting Dive
Refine the bleed to not be linked to Off-Balance. Have it simply work off a cooldown with a maximum stack number, and once that stack number is reached, the CD begins. This means the Warden has meaningful control over their DPS, and it also creates a "mini-game" of sorts where the ideal Warden play will revolve around letting each stack tick once before applying the next to maximize bleed damage.

Change Two: Bear
Give the bear active a buff. The best suggestion I have seen that wouldn't be totally game-breaking is Minor Heroism. It isn't in the game at a high level outside of tanks and would bring a unique buff that only DPS can apply. It can be small-scale like War Machine, Warden + 2, or bigger, such as Warden + 5, or even the entire group. This benefits both mag and stam Wardens equally.

Change Three: Growing Swarm
This skill isn't inherently bad, but is arguably outclassed by the Magden variant due to the double-cast mechanic. Here, I would change the buff/debuff entirely. I would remove Minor Vulnerability from the Stamina variant, creating a clear definition between the two specializations, and instead apply a Morag Tong styled buff here, between 8-12% increased Poison damage. I would also have the DoT deal Poison Damage to help unify the Warden's kit somewhat.

THEORY:
One thing i've played with in my head is removing Minor Vuln from bugs entirely, and instead having the Stam morph increase Poison damage, while the Mag morph increases ice + magic damage. Both would scale for their percentage based on offensive stats, the "engulfing flames treatment" to prevent tanks and healers simply taking over their buffing role.

Change Four: Winter's Embrace
This skill is in a weird place, as it exists within the tank tree and only benefits Magicka Wardens. I propose a redesign in the same vein as Ritual of Retribution and Flames of Oblivion. Allow this skill to scale off the highest offensive stat, rather than only magicka. This change benefits Stamden mainly, but creates few to no additional issues. It is irrelevant for PVP, doesn't harm Magden, allows Stamina Wardens to utilize the new Ice passive, and gives Stamina Wardens a 6th class skill that is functional and meaningful to match their Magicka counterparts.

Some nice suggestions there -
1. Great idea for dive, makes perfect sense considering the changes that are potential happening to off balance. The Off Bal changes are a direct nerf to this skill (currently)
Also Dive animation needs a rework, it’s very clunky.

3. Bear needs some work, particularly because you have to double bar it. But your idea is good.

3. Could Swarm change to an execute skill? Like Poison Injection?

4. 100% agree, it’s not really fair addition to the passive if Stam can’t really benefit from it, as they don’t use Cold Skills.

thadjarvis · January 2020

Indeed, #1 should a be an automatic fix as they changed the underlying mechanic without addressing this dependency.

If #4 doesn't pan out, increase 1-3 to get the missing damage. Focusing into two damage types (poison & physical) is probably better anyway in ESO for a stam.

MashmalloMan · January 2020

Hate to break it to some, but just because the new passive helps ice/mag wardens, does not mean it needs to help stam wardens in the same way. Every class has passives that benefit one type of playstyle. There are other ways of making them more competitive, the plus side of the passive is it will help stam wardens in rare cases, but I HIGHLY doubt ZOS actually considers this useful to the overall power kit and budget of a Stam warden. If anything, this simply shows ZOS has become willing over the past 2-3 updates to make ice DPS a thing for wardens. Step by step, they're getting there.

Asking for Stam wardens to use winters embrace if it scaled for them is not the answer to improving their kit and does not fit into the power fantasy ZOS looks to improve.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Hate to break it to some, but just because the new passive helps ice/mag wardens, does not mean it needs to help stam wardens in the same way. Every class has passives that benefit one type of playstyle. There are other ways of making them more competitive, the plus side of the passive is it will help stam wardens in rare cases, but I HIGHLY doubt ZOS actually considers this useful to the overall power kit and budget of a Stam warden. If anything, this simply shows ZOS has become willing over the past 2-3 updates to make ice DPS a thing for wardens. Step by step, they're getting there.

Asking for Stam wardens to use winters embrace if it scaled for them is not the answer to improving their kit and does not fit into the power fantasy ZOS looks to improve.

We discussed several Stamina Warden buffs to give them what they need in pve along with their own flavour while not encroaching on magden skills and passives.