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• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
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Do people not realise this game is a MMO foremost?
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Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone.
Absolutely you can. All those people jumping off the waterfall to shortcut Fungal Grotto 1 just cut out a huge chunk of the experience.
All those people leaving and causing you to be ejected from Crypt of Hearts made you miss the ghost victory parade. Bet you didn't even know there was one.Edited by Dusk_Coven on January 22, 2020 9:16PM1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeons
"no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds."
These types of stories only exist within RP guilds, period. The MMO you are playing is completely irrelevant. The stories in MMO's are not emergent or collaborative. They are predetermined and almost entirely linear.
"otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it."
This is obviously wrong considering that the stories in ESO and every other MMO are pre-programmed and continue on a railroad regardless of your personal narrative. While it may or may not provide the illusion that your choices matter, the outcome is entirely pre-determined.
"now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain."
How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone. You are experiencing the whole story alongside the other players. This is exactly the problem - people conflating an MMO experience with a Single-Player experience. That is not even a coherent allegory.
to the points 1 and 2, i'm not sure what you are trying to refute as we are not actualy disagreeing. MMO, regardless of which MMo (which is why i said MMO, NOT ESO specificaly) is a massive world that give people a playground to play in. pre-programmed stories are pre-programmed stories. you basically rephrased what i said, but framed it as an argument against what I said?
as for dungeons? no. because you are at mercy of the pace other people go at and becasue in a lot of these dungeons npc's move on the moment first person to finish reading the text - moves on. moreover - there is dialogue/explorative/lore options in between that do not progress the quest that you may or may not get to see depending on how slowly your group is willing to go.
it is a coherent allegory if you had every attempted to do ALL of the story, including optional bits within the dungeon
It's not a coherent allegory if there are stipulations on when it is and isn't an accurate representation of the hypothetical.
As for dungeon content, others have already presented a solution where the players states 'Hey, this is my first time.' and the others proceed accordingly. As I and many others have stated, this would not be an issue. If that is the case, you're not arguing that solo players don't get the opportunity to experience the story - you're making a flimsy excuse for anti-social behavior in an MMO.Edited by Kahnak on January 22, 2020 9:18PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeons
"no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds."
These types of stories only exist within RP guilds, period. The MMO you are playing is completely irrelevant. The stories in MMO's are not emergent or collaborative. They are predetermined and almost entirely linear.
"otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it."
This is obviously wrong considering that the stories in ESO and every other MMO are pre-programmed and continue on a railroad regardless of your personal narrative. While it may or may not provide the illusion that your choices matter, the outcome is entirely pre-determined.
"now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain."
How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone. You are experiencing the whole story alongside the other players. This is exactly the problem - people conflating an MMO experience with a Single-Player experience. That is not even a coherent allegory.
to the points 1 and 2, i'm not sure what you are trying to refute as we are not actualy disagreeing. MMO, regardless of which MMo (which is why i said MMO, NOT ESO specificaly) is a massive world that give people a playground to play in. pre-programmed stories are pre-programmed stories. you basically rephrased what i said, but framed it as an argument against what I said?
as for dungeons? no. because you are at mercy of the pace other people go at and becasue in a lot of these dungeons npc's move on the moment first person to finish reading the text - moves on. moreover - there is dialogue/explorative/lore options in between that do not progress the quest that you may or may not get to see depending on how slowly your group is willing to go.
it is a coherent allegory if you had every attempted to do ALL of the story, including optional bits within the dungeon
It's not a coherent allegory if there are stipulations on when it is and isn't an accurate representation of the hypothetical.
As for dungeon content, others have already presented a solution where the players states 'Hey, this is my first time.' and the others proceed accordingly. As I and many others have stated, this would not be an issue. If that is the case, you're not arguing that solo players don't get the opportunity to experience the story - you're making a flimsy excuse for anti-social behavior in an MMO.
sigh. but the allegory still works. because in my allegory, the other players sharing the book? that's players being nice, attempting to go along with you doing the story. what often happens even if you say - this is my first time, you are ignored and they just keep running. best case scenario, quest auto advances and you get your skill point. "best" being questionable.
maybe you don't see the difference between doing the dungeon for the first time quest and doing it for the first time story? because they are NOT one and the same.
but do please clarify for me which stipulations are in your opinion not accurate?
emergent gameplay is being social in an MMO. running a dungeon can in theory be a social experience, but more often then one, one of the loneliest things you can do in an MMO. people rarely talk or communicate, they might as well be npc's that you need to keep up with or be left behind.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭It's not people complaining about catering to solo players. The complaint is that solo players are complaining about having to engage in multiplayer when playing a multiplayer game in order to get the whole context of the storyline. That is a strawman.
The only "strawman" is above.Uh, what? So, we're just making fantastical claims with zero support today, I guess. First off, this is a complete generalization about what YOU think other people think about the nature of an MMO. Second, a private instance has nothing to do with an MMORPG specifically and everything to do with the burden on a server. It's done for quality of life. I'd be interested to hear your idea of a 'real' MMORPG and how different that is from what YOU think other people think an MMORPG is supposed to be.
Wrong, private instances have nothing to do with the burden on a server, MMORPGs without private instances still have instances to deal with server load, just as this one does for open world, public dungeons, Cyrodil, etc.
Private instances came into being to appeal to a wider audience of casual non-MMORPG players who didn't like the 'massively multiplayer' aspect of MMORPGs such as public dungeons and basically wanted to play just a normal 'multiplayer'. So little Brad could play with his three buddies, but not have to interact with anyone else in a meaningful way. Same reason PvP got increasingly separated off that upset little Brad also, that LFG tools replaced people actually having to interact in a supposed 'massively multiplayer' game, how they added the ability to basically teleport anyone so you can sit in a town and essentially you had modern themepark MMORPGs that let people play them like a lobby mulitplayer rather than a real MMORPG. And resulted in the shallow "communities" you have now in these games.
Now if you can't grasp that, well...
"The only "strawman" is above."
You must have missed the OP's original post. I've left it below. Notice it is entirely consistent with my statement and the 'strawman', as stated, is not.
"Every time a new DLC is announced its the same thing "I dont like dungeons, why are you locking story content in dungeons ZO$? How am I... a solo player suppose to enjoy this content". Here's the answer... Just queue like everyone else, anyone can complete a normal dungeon and the people who say "everyone is rushing and wont let me read the text", have you tried asking at the start of the run "Hello I have not done this dungeon before and need to do the quest would you mind waiting for me", 90% of people will happily wait for you."
"Wrong, private instances have nothing to do with the burden on a server, MMORPGs without private instances still have instances to deal with server load, just as this one does for open world, public dungeons, Cyrodil, etc."
Instances and private instances are the same thing.
"Private instances came into being to appeal to a wider audience of casual non-MMORPG players who didn't like the 'massively multiplayer' aspect of MMORPGs such as public dungeons and basically wanted to play just a normal 'multiplayer'. So little Brad could play with his three buddies, but not have to interact with anyone else in a meaningful way. Same reason PvP got increasingly separated off that upset little Brad also, that LFG tools replaced people actually having to interact in a supposed 'massively multiplayer' game, how they added the ability to basically teleport anyone so you can sit in a town and essentially you had modern themepark MMORPGs that let people play them like a lobby mulitplayer rather than a real MMORPG. And resulted in the shallow "communities" you have now in these games."
Seeing as you're having a hard time understanding the nature of what an instance is I'm going to disregard your explanation that would infer that instances are somehow new or exclusive in some way.
See below for clarification on what an instance is. Note that it has nothing to do with Brad, his buddies or not wanting to interact with others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instance_dungeon
Technical considerations
Having players participate in instances tends to spread out populations of players, instead of concentrating them, which may reduce or level the workload for both the server and client by limiting the number of potential interactions between players and objects. Because the player characters in the instance do not need to be updated on all the information going on outside the instance, and vice versa for the characters outside the instance, there is an overall decrease in demands on the network, with the net result being less lag for the players. This also reduces the demands on each player's computer, as the number of objects to be processed can be more easily limited by the game's developer. The developer can better reason about the worst-case performance requirements in an instance because they do not have to consider scenarios such as hundreds of players descending on any location at any time.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"2 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeons
"no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds."
These types of stories only exist within RP guilds, period. The MMO you are playing is completely irrelevant. The stories in MMO's are not emergent or collaborative. They are predetermined and almost entirely linear.
"otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it."
This is obviously wrong considering that the stories in ESO and every other MMO are pre-programmed and continue on a railroad regardless of your personal narrative. While it may or may not provide the illusion that your choices matter, the outcome is entirely pre-determined.
"now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain."
How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone. You are experiencing the whole story alongside the other players. This is exactly the problem - people conflating an MMO experience with a Single-Player experience. That is not even a coherent allegory.
to the points 1 and 2, i'm not sure what you are trying to refute as we are not actualy disagreeing. MMO, regardless of which MMo (which is why i said MMO, NOT ESO specificaly) is a massive world that give people a playground to play in. pre-programmed stories are pre-programmed stories. you basically rephrased what i said, but framed it as an argument against what I said?
as for dungeons? no. because you are at mercy of the pace other people go at and becasue in a lot of these dungeons npc's move on the moment first person to finish reading the text - moves on. moreover - there is dialogue/explorative/lore options in between that do not progress the quest that you may or may not get to see depending on how slowly your group is willing to go.
it is a coherent allegory if you had every attempted to do ALL of the story, including optional bits within the dungeon
It's not a coherent allegory if there are stipulations on when it is and isn't an accurate representation of the hypothetical.
As for dungeon content, others have already presented a solution where the players states 'Hey, this is my first time.' and the others proceed accordingly. As I and many others have stated, this would not be an issue. If that is the case, you're not arguing that solo players don't get the opportunity to experience the story - you're making a flimsy excuse for anti-social behavior in an MMO.
sigh. but the allegory still works. because in my allegory, the other players sharing the book? that's players being nice, attempting to go along with you doing the story. what often happens even if you say - this is my first time, you are ignored and they just keep running. best case scenario, quest auto advances and you get your skill point. "best" being questionable.
maybe you don't see the difference between doing the dungeon for the first time quest and doing it for the first time story? because they are NOT one and the same.
but do please clarify for me which stipulations are in your opinion not accurate?
emergent gameplay is being social in an MMO. running a dungeon can in theory be a social experience, but more often then one, one of the loneliest things you can do in an MMO. people rarely talk or communicate, they might as well be npc's that you need to keep up with or be left behind.
"sigh. but the allegory still works. because in my allegory, the other players sharing the book? that's players being nice, attempting to go along with you doing the story. what often happens even if you say - this is my first time, you are ignored and they just keep running. best case scenario, quest auto advances and you get your skill point. "best" being questionable."
If, in your allegory, you allege that there are players being polite and sharing, why would you then go on to assert that the result of being social would be that the players would be impolite to you and that the best case scenario would be you not getting to experience the story at all? That alone makes it incoherent, especially considering that there are several people who've made statements to the contrary. Besides the fact that allegory is not conditional - it is a symbolic narrative used to represent a specific hypothetical.
"maybe you don't see the difference between doing the dungeon for the first time quest and doing it for the first time story? because they are NOT one and the same."
No, there was no distinction made between these two things. Are you inferring that everyone that does a dungeon does it once specifically for the story and then a second time specifically for the quest? That doesn't make any sense, considering that the dungeon quest IS essentially the story. Once the quest is completed, the game omits most of the storytelling (or makes it ancillary), so I'm not sure why the distinction is important.Edited by Kahnak on January 22, 2020 9:53PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0
This discussion has been closed.