Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Maybe if the passive that increases the chance to proc chilled applied to more than just Winter’s Embrace skills, then a Frost enchant on DW off-hand might give enough uptime to make it viable. That would give about 3X the uptime you’d see right now.

Still has to be weighed against the loss of poisons which are so strong atm. I just don't think a Stamden running a frost glyph is ever going to be a feasible solution there. You're going to rely on others. Especially with the Infused on DW nerf, and Infused not really being viable at all on 2H.

It could also increase the duration of chilled by a couple of seconds, that might push it close to poisons.

So I wanted to dig in and give my perspective on some changes I feel would highly benefit Stamden particularly, since that's my specialty. I'm not keen on talking about things I don't play, so Magden really isn't my wheelhouse, so keep in mind that these changes are almost 100% Stamden-focused to try to bring them up and competitive with other Stamina DPS classes. This is just spitballing and playing with ideas but here ya go.

PASSIVES:

Advanced Species:
Unchanged

Flourish:
Increases your Magicka and Stamina recovery by 12% -> 13%

Savage Beast:
4 Ultimate every 8 seconds - > 4 Ultimate every 12 seconds

Bond With Nature:
When an Animal Companion pet is active (bear or netch), your health is increased by 600.
Heal is unchanged.

SKILLS:

Subterranean Assault:
Cost: 1776 Stamina -> 1900 Stamina
Damage: Reduced by 12%
Changes: N/A (See Growing Swarm)

Cutting Dive/Rending Talons:
Cost: 1973 Stamina -> 1800 Stamina
Damage: Increased by 6%
Changes: For this skill, I had an epiphany to something I had seen elsewhere. I cannot recall the game for the life of me, but I enjoyed my time with a skill that changed depending on the range it was cast from. For this skill, I would have that cutoff at round 3m. Inside of 3m, it is Rending Talons, an instant melee spammable. Outside, it reverts to Cutting Dive. This pleases everyone involved, as it allows the bow/bow Wardens to retain their spammable, SCR is unchanged, and Stamdens are given a more reliable, functional melee spammable. For visual, I don't like to re-hash other things, but the DK's claw springs to mind.

Growing Swarm:
Cost: 2171 Stamina -> 2250 Stamina
Damage: Reduced by 8%, now deals Poison Damage.
Changes: Can only be applied to a single target at a time. Adds additional effects to your Animal Companion abilities when hitting a target affected by YOUR Growing Swarm. No piggy-backing off healers.

Additional Effects:

1. Sub Assault: Applies a debuff to the target, increasing their Poison damage taken by 10-12% for 4 seconds. Could make this exclusive to the Warden, or a debuff everyone gains. Could also make the effect 15% for Wardens, but less for the group. Say 10%.
2. Cutting Dive/Rending Talons: Applies a bleed. The bleed deals _______ damage over 4 seconds, stacking up to 5 times. Once stacked, it cannot be stacked/refreshed and goes on an 8-12 second CD.
3. Wild Guardian: Applies a buff to the Warden and up to two nearby friendly targets, increasing Weapon Damage by 7% for 10 seconds.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I would love to get some opinions and start some spitballing that I know the devs will never see but gotta try, amirite? @ESO_Nightingale @thadjarvis @ATreeGnome

I like the simple yet effective change to cutting dive.

Just thoughts and devilish advocating to sure up ideas (along with very limited class implications as yes it's about stamden but a few things could effect others):

Passives:

Recovery: Consider this vs skill cost reduction implications. Buffing this more over reducing skill costs basically makes it more important to double bar an AC skill. It's so small that it doesn't matter IMO to none bear wardens (tank/healer).

Ultimate: is this compensation for the Bear weapon damage buff? Makes sense, but....
1) it goes against general cross-class standard of 0.5 Ultimate per second (or more)
2) potential impact upon non-stamden PvE
If the reason is to compensate for Bear buff, could alternatively keep the ultimate the same and scale the potency or duration of the buff so that the average buff over time is the same with the current 0.5 UPS

Extra Health: Why ask for that? Meta PvE (Orc) stamden's need it? Outside of Meta PvE Warden's have toughness if not provided by group. IE if budgeting what to request this would be lowest on the list imo.

Rending Talons: cool idea. Though is there a purpose other than animation in PvE. Make weaving better? I ask because PvP stamden might like it, and the one thing ZoS may try to avoid in any PvE stamden buff is to avoid buffing PvP stamden

Swarm: just to confirm...no longer applies minor vulnerability?

The additional effects:
All constructive ideas and I like them. I can't say whether the values are reasonable or not; that comes down to testing and balancing the personal, close allies, and trial group DPS. If implemented the numbers would be wildly adjusted from what you have (ZoS random at 1st then to a reasonable level), but yea solid across the board in concept.

War Machine could have niche uses as the bear buff makes it super charged. Eg Spider HoF boss wearing Balrog/WM with two allies wearing set other than Lokk to push burst higher. Curious was it intended to be only Weapon damage and not spell damage as well. Fine for stam trials, but kind of a bummer for other content.

Potential Stam Meta implications:

• Huge DK, Warden buff
• Necro buff (unfortunate side-effect, but does make Stamden more valuable bc Necro will be there anyway)
• Stamplar no buff but still likely top tier
• Sorc could hold in there if they're parse remains high; Berserk still useful in any group setup
• NB unless no NB in support tough to get them in

Example Line-up

3-4 Necro, 1-2 Warden, 1-3 DK, 1 Templar
with Supports:

• Warden still needed
• NB liked wanted
• Necro possibly good to have
• Sorc only really used in mag meta
• No need for Templar/DK but they'll be rummaging around support roles until ESO dies no matter what the meta says imo.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Rending Talons: cool idea. Though is there a purpose other than animation in PvE. Make weaving better? I ask because PvP stamden might like it, and the one thing ZoS may try to avoid in any PvE stamden buff is to avoid buffing PvP stamden[/list]

Actually, there's several reasons. Main one, the bird just weaves kinda like garbage. It's slow, ponderous, clunky, it just doesn't feel great to weave. Super easy to get animation locked and miss LAs during quick weaves. Other main reason is for item triggering, such as Selene's and the new Aegis Caller set.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I meant the change to the bleed

I'd be...happier with that, but if that was the only change they made to birds i'd be pretty damn tilted. We've been asking for a better stam spammable since basically release. It feels so blah to weave.

Yeah i also hate the design of the animals but mainly dive. I hate all but the bear. It's so oddly specific to the vvardenfell region that it kills roleplay value. Frost is so much more interesting to play with and look at. And it's our home element. When concerning balance and design, nothing in the class really meshes very well in theory. Aoe burst, st spammable, st dot, aoe dot ultimate.

In practice it kinda works/worked? I dunno i think we need another aoe burst skill to really center it down. Master shock clench works the best as our spammable. When it stunned it worked quite well despite thematic issues. Dive could combo with shalks and fp but that was ruined in pvp when they tried to buff it after the removal of the undodgeable feature.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Out of curiousity who actually is the Warden class rep at this point?

I thought the class rep system died?

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Out of curiousity who actually is the Warden class rep at this point?

While they may be called class reps, they don't really specialise in 1 class. Recently I've been giving most of my feedback directly to Glorious.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Out of curiousity who actually is the Warden class rep at this point?

While they may be called class reps, they don't really specialise in 1 class. Recently I've been giving most of my feedback directly to Glorious.

I genuinely have no idea who that is. However, the rep system really should be class-specific.

i think that they wanted people who played a ton of different classes with a really good understanding of the game. that way there is less bias directed on certain classes.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Out of curiousity who actually is the Warden class rep at this point?

While they may be called class reps, they don't really specialise in 1 class. Recently I've been giving most of my feedback directly to Glorious.

I genuinely have no idea who that is. However, the rep system really should be class-specific.

i think that they wanted people who played a ton of different classes with a really good understanding of the game. that way there is less bias directed on certain classes.

I suppose that's a reasonable perspective, and in some ways it's worked, but I also think it's caused a lot of changes to miss the boat entirely.

yeah, there's always positives and negatives to decisions.

Faulgor wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

Really regrettable. If a giant bear fighting beside you, mauling your enemies, doesnt give you courage, I don't know what would.

Only alternative I could see is Minor Heroism for the bear ulti, although that could spiral out of control? Not sure.

I'd just be glad that the bear isn't eating me. lol. minor heroism might not be a completely horrible idea. bear is pretty crap in pvp and minor heroism isn't a buff that anyone can give in groups yet. I can also see groups wanting that buff.

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

Really regrettable. If a giant bear fighting beside you, mauling your enemies, doesnt give you courage, I don't know what would.

Only alternative I could see is Minor Heroism for the bear ulti, although that could spiral out of control? Not sure.

I'd just be glad that the bear isn't eating me. lol. minor heroism might not be a completely horrible idea. bear is pretty crap in pvp and minor heroism isn't a buff that anyone can give in groups yet. I can also see groups wanting that buff.

It makes sense thematically for Wardens, who already have access to Major Heroism, and synergizes well with War Machine/Master Architect.
My only concern is that it might help gain some classes ultimate too fast. It won't impact War Horn because tanks already have Minor Heroism, but things like the Colossus ... although Necros already have great ulti regen, so who knows.

I'd love it, which means it probably won't happen.

Yeah not sure how balanced it would actually be. Maybe if the duration was quite short it would be fine.

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

Really regrettable. If a giant bear fighting beside you, mauling your enemies, doesnt give you courage, I don't know what would.

Only alternative I could see is Minor Heroism for the bear ulti, although that could spiral out of control? Not sure.

I'd just be glad that the bear isn't eating me. lol. minor heroism might not be a completely horrible idea. bear is pretty crap in pvp and minor heroism isn't a buff that anyone can give in groups yet. I can also see groups wanting that buff.

It makes sense thematically for Wardens, who already have access to Major Heroism, and synergizes well with War Machine/Master Architect.
My only concern is that it might help gain some classes ultimate too fast. It won't impact War Horn because tanks already have Minor Heroism, but things like the Colossus ... although Necros already have great ulti regen, so who knows.

I'd love it, which means it probably won't happen.

Yeah not sure how balanced it would actually be. Maybe if the duration was quite short it would be fine.

If we can use the bear ~2 times per minute, I think 9 seconds (6 ultimate) would be fine, 12 might be pushing it.
15 seconds at twice per minute would give 20 ultimate, as much as NB's catalyst passive.

Of course, if you had multiple Wardens in your group, you could have much longer uptimes. But given their current state, that almost seems fair.

perhaps.

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

Really regrettable. If a giant bear fighting beside you, mauling your enemies, doesnt give you courage, I don't know what would.

Only alternative I could see is Minor Heroism for the bear ulti, although that could spiral out of control? Not sure.

I'd just be glad that the bear isn't eating me. lol. minor heroism might not be a completely horrible idea. bear is pretty crap in pvp and minor heroism isn't a buff that anyone can give in groups yet. I can also see groups wanting that buff.

It makes sense thematically for Wardens, who already have access to Major Heroism, and synergizes well with War Machine/Master Architect.
My only concern is that it might help gain some classes ultimate too fast. It won't impact War Horn because tanks already have Minor Heroism, but things like the Colossus ... although Necros already have great ulti regen, so who knows.

I'd love it, which means it probably won't happen.

Yeah not sure how balanced it would actually be. Maybe if the duration was quite short it would be fine.

If we can use the bear ~2 times per minute, I think 9 seconds (6 ultimate) would be fine, 12 might be pushing it.
15 seconds at twice per minute would give 20 ultimate, as much as NB's catalyst passive.

Of course, if you had multiple Wardens in your group, you could have much longer uptimes. But given their current state, that almost seems fair.

In PvE we can use the bear roughly 3 times in a minute. I think its something like 22 seconds to recharge.