PSA: Warden DPS Is Still Terrible

ATreeGnome · January 2020

I feel like moving the extra crit damage from being tied to chilled to activation of the bear ult would provide a good, reliable DPS boost to both warden DPS specs for PvE without having a significant impact on PvP performance. So maybe enemies that are damaged by the active part of the bear ult take 10% addition crit damage from you for 10 seconds? Or maybe from you and your 2 nearest allies?

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

That's the point though - stamden has never really had a place in the PvE meta but it has been around for years. Players should not have to wait for some future shift in meta that may or may not even happen in order to feel like playing their favorite class isn't a complete burden to the rest of the group in semi-serious content.

It's not a secret that warden DPS have been in a bad spot, but nearly every significant buff has been geared toward warden supports. It shouldn't be that hard to simply give warden DPS a raw numbers boost to make them feel relevant until a coherent class design is in place.

That's the source of my frustration. They did exactly that with the Advanced Species change. That bumped Warden to 2nd-3rd Stam DPS. It was a solid change that should have worked as a band-aid until more meaningful, core structure changes could be implemented. It lasted a few patches before being nerfed, likely due to PVP reasons.

You have opened my eyes a little. I always saw the bandaids as a bad thing. But what you say does make sense. If they introduce a whole lot of bandaids and then while they are in place, start working under the hood, it's a more systematic approach rather than 1 at a time. Interesting.

There are two places incremental change never works unless worked on tirelessly. Politics and vidya games. This "incremental change" approach to Warden will leave a game devoid of Warden DPS.

I definitely hear that. Thanks for the different point of view my dude.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

I feel like moving the extra crit damage from being tied to chilled to activation of the bear ult would provide a good, reliable DPS boost to both warden DPS specs for PvE without having a significant impact on PvE performance. So maybe enemies that are damaged by the active part of the bear ult take 10% addition crit damage from you for 10 seconds? Or maybe from you and your 2 nearest allies?

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps but increasing our dps when no other class could gain that benefit. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think context is important here. The idea behind this is...okay, but not within the context. Like, Wardens don't need change in Q4. They need it now. You can't just keep saying "Well just hold on, we'll get to you" and never actually...you know, get to them lol. This change would be cool if Wardens were a middle of the pack DPS and that small adjustment could be reflected in bumping them slightly toward the top. In the current climate, this is pissing into the ocean of problems.

I think it's a perspective problem where all this will do (speaking personally and for many of the Stamden players I know), this just annoys us. This is indicative of a dev team that isn't listening. It ends up feeling like we're completely ignored and literally no one is even attempting to stem the bleeding.

I know your intentions were good, I've seen a lot of your posts and I think you want Warden to succeed, but celebrating this is like celebrating your lawn chairs surviving the fire that burned your house down. It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic while the band plays on.

thadjarvis · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Reguarding the trial balance, unfortunately i just don't think it will ever work any other way. People always find a way to get max dps. Usually by stacking 1 thing if possible. Now it's just "will it be my turn to shine in the sun?". I wish meta was decided by developers. But in a game like this, players optimise usually to levels where it gets boring really fast.

I agree that groups will always build around the top 1 or 2 DPS class being stam or mag depending on trial, and I don't think all of 12 builds has a right to in end-game meta (there isn't room for more than 8 anyway).

But, each build should be at least useful to some degree so it's not a big penalty to use it for the trial community that isn't pushing max score and the even casual trial guilds just running trials just to clear for fun. I checked ESO Logs for HM Dungeons and Sunspire. Across ALL percentiles (all, mid, top quarter, max, etc) Stamden is the lowest. The data just shows groups with Stamden's in them are the least effective at any level. Check all other DLC trials quickly: Stamden is lowest across the board and not even present in some. Magden is usually 2nd last but there are some bright spots and they are actually getting a DPS buff.

The Morag Tong idea on Sub Assault was a good idea above. Doesn't have to be valued such that they're a must have in stam trials but that they at least add something.

Eg. Stamblades are on the high side of rotation difficulty, low cleave, and lower end on max damage. But, for groups that don't use a NB in support (they are many), they are quite useful. The only benefit Stamden can provide (without dropping DPS further to proc toughness) would be if there is no other Warden at all or no NB in support. That's highly unlikely, and even then Infused Shock / Charged Resto on healers without stamden could beat group with stamden.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

I feel like moving the extra crit damage from being tied to chilled to activation of the bear ult would provide a good, reliable DPS boost to both warden DPS specs for PvE without having a significant impact on PvE performance. So maybe enemies that are damaged by the active part of the bear ult take 10% addition crit damage from you for 10 seconds? Or maybe from you and your 2 nearest allies?

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps but increasing our dps when no other class could gain that benefit. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think making chilled valuable to warden DPS is a great idea, but it just doesn't do enough on it's own in the PTS iteration to help both DPS specs feel valuable.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think context is important here. The idea behind this is...okay, but not within the context. Like, Wardens don't need change in Q4. They need it now. You can't just keep saying "Well just hold on, we'll get to you" and never actually...you know, get to them lol. This change would be cool if Wardens were a middle of the pack DPS and that small adjustment could be reflected in bumping them slightly toward the top. In the current climate, this is pissing into the ocean of problems.

I think it's a perspective problem where all this will do (speaking personally and for many of the Stamden players I know), this just annoys us. This is indicative of a dev team that isn't listening. It ends up feeling like we're completely ignored and literally no one is even attempting to stem the bleeding.

I know your intentions were good, I've seen a lot of your posts and I think you want Warden to succeed, but celebrating this is like celebrating your lawn chairs surviving the fire that burned your house down.

Haha. I like that analogy let me try and continue it. Okay well i think that them starting small with one of our suggestions was a good start. The fire has been burning for several years now and the house is mostly burnt down. I think getting a new table with my lawn chairs will be a good start to rebuilding. Because it shows me that not all is lost. The time to fix warden was several years ago. But we've got to be patient. They seem to finally be getting around to it and i want that to keep going.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

I feel like moving the extra crit damage from being tied to chilled to activation of the bear ult would provide a good, reliable DPS boost to both warden DPS specs for PvE without having a significant impact on PvE performance. So maybe enemies that are damaged by the active part of the bear ult take 10% addition crit damage from you for 10 seconds? Or maybe from you and your 2 nearest allies?

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps but increasing our dps when no other class could gain that benefit. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think making chilled valuable to warden DPS is a great idea, but it just doesn't do enough on it's own in the PTS iteration to help both DPS specs feel valuable.

So let's suggest something to help the bear be more useful. A group benefit is always nice. And it's not another bandaid.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think context is important here. The idea behind this is...okay, but not within the context. Like, Wardens don't need change in Q4. They need it now. You can't just keep saying "Well just hold on, we'll get to you" and never actually...you know, get to them lol. This change would be cool if Wardens were a middle of the pack DPS and that small adjustment could be reflected in bumping them slightly toward the top. In the current climate, this is pissing into the ocean of problems.

I think it's a perspective problem where all this will do (speaking personally and for many of the Stamden players I know), this just annoys us. This is indicative of a dev team that isn't listening. It ends up feeling like we're completely ignored and literally no one is even attempting to stem the bleeding.

I know your intentions were good, I've seen a lot of your posts and I think you want Warden to succeed, but celebrating this is like celebrating your lawn chairs surviving the fire that burned your house down.

Haha. I like that analogy let me try and continue it. Okay well i think that them starting small with one of our suggestions was a good start. The fire has been burning for several years now and the house is mostly burnt down. I think getting a new table with my lawn chairs will be a good start to rebuilding. Because it shows me that not all is lost. The time to fix warden was several years ago. But we've got to be patient. They seem to finally be getting around to it and i want that to keep going.

Continuing the analogy, your insurance company should be providing you a hotel room while your home gets rebuilt so you don't die, not giving you a nice table to go with the lawn chairs you saved.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

So let's suggest something to help the bear be more useful. A group benefit is always nice. And it's not another bandaid.

I for one would love to see a War Machine-styled buff tied to the bear. Something meaningful that isn't negated passively. Warden always tied in with War Machine, so bringing that feel back would be kind of neat. What about a ~5-10% weapon damage buff for the Warden and two targets nearby? Or a crit buff? And not tied to the major/minor stigma. A stackable, brand new buff that allows Warden to bring something completely unique to a trial. Obviously, Mag would get the spell damage/crit variant.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Actually i'd extend that buff to the Warden + 5. Half the group is feasible for a buff that small.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't think buffing bear is a bad idea at all, but one of the major reasons why i suggested this specific change was so that chilled could become useful for the warden dps. It was a magicka warden oriented flavour buff that could also help out stamden to a lesser extent. It is a buff i made to be capitalised on by future buffs. Don't take that away from glacial presence.

I think context is important here. The idea behind this is...okay, but not within the context. Like, Wardens don't need change in Q4. They need it now. You can't just keep saying "Well just hold on, we'll get to you" and never actually...you know, get to them lol. This change would be cool if Wardens were a middle of the pack DPS and that small adjustment could be reflected in bumping them slightly toward the top. In the current climate, this is pissing into the ocean of problems.

I think it's a perspective problem where all this will do (speaking personally and for many of the Stamden players I know), this just annoys us. This is indicative of a dev team that isn't listening. It ends up feeling like we're completely ignored and literally no one is even attempting to stem the bleeding.

I know your intentions were good, I've seen a lot of your posts and I think you want Warden to succeed, but celebrating this is like celebrating your lawn chairs surviving the fire that burned your house down.

Haha. I like that analogy let me try and continue it. Okay well i think that them starting small with one of our suggestions was a good start. The fire has been burning for several years now and the house is mostly burnt down. I think getting a new table with my lawn chairs will be a good start to rebuilding. Because it shows me that not all is lost. The time to fix warden was several years ago. But we've got to be patient. They seem to finally be getting around to it and i want that to keep going.

Continuing the analogy, your insurance company should be providing you a hotel room while your home gets rebuilt so you don't die, not giving you a nice table to go with the lawn chairs you saved.

I know. I want it to speed up too. But it's the best effort from them we've gotten in a while, maybe even ever. It's not like angry protesting helps unless there are overwhelming numbers of us. Taking a calm and supporting route to this sort of thing saves us sanity and might make our arguments more persuasive.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Actually i'd extend that buff to the Warden + 5. Half the group is feasible for a buff that small.

Maybe. I always thought that our unique damage dealer buff should have been minor courage. Maybe if it applies to a few people around you for 15 seconds on both morphs, that would be pretty interesting. Either that or splitting up the regen buffs on enchanted growth and moving them to dps skills.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I know. I want it to speed up too. But it's the best effort from them we've gotten in a while, maybe even ever. It's not like angry protesting helps unless there are overwhelming numbers of us. Taking a calm and supporting route to this sort of thing saves us sanity and might make our arguments more persuasive.

I agree in a way, but I also disagree in ways. I get what you're saying, but at some point when so many suggestions are put out there by legitimate end-game PVE players who genuinely want the class to improve, but simply get ignored by devs, it becomes nearly impossible to approach this in a diplomatic way. I feel like part of the problem is, as I said earlier, the lack of representation at the table. Someone should have stood up against the off-balance change and how it would negatively impact Wardens, but i'm quite confident no one did. We're the redheaded stepchild of ESO.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I know. I want it to speed up too. But it's the best effort from them we've gotten in a while, maybe even ever. It's not like angry protesting helps unless there are overwhelming numbers of us. Taking a calm and supporting route to this sort of thing saves us sanity and might make our arguments more persuasive.

I agree in a way, but I also disagree in ways. I get what you're saying, but at some point when so many suggestions are put out there by legitimate end-game PVE players who genuinely want the class to improve, but simply get ignored by devs, it becomes nearly impossible to approach this in a diplomatic way. I feel like part of the problem is, as I said earlier, the lack of representation at the table. Someone should have stood up against the off-balance change and how it would negatively impact Wardens, but i'm quite confident no one did. We're the redheaded stepchild of ESO.

I completely understand how you feel. But I've learned that the slow and steady route is the only way forward.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Actually i'd extend that buff to the Warden + 5. Half the group is feasible for a buff that small.

Maybe. I always thought that our unique damage dealer buff should have been minor courage. Maybe if it applies to a few people around you for 15 seconds on both morphs, that would be pretty interesting. Either that or splitting up the regen buffs on enchanted growth and moving them to dps skills.

If it were minor courage I think that would be a good first step, but hardly solve the problem. No one is benching a Stamcro for a flat weapon damage increase of...what? 70? 100? lol

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

That's why I recommend a scaling buff instead. That's incredibly impactful, as in trials weapon damage stacks quite high, and even a 5% increase would be a huge DPS gain.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Actually i'd extend that buff to the Warden + 5. Half the group is feasible for a buff that small.

Maybe. I always thought that our unique damage dealer buff should have been minor courage. Maybe if it applies to a few people around you for 15 seconds on both morphs, that would be pretty interesting. Either that or splitting up the regen buffs on enchanted growth and moving them to dps skills.

If it were minor courage I think that would be a good first step, but hardly solve the problem. No one is benching a Stamcro for a flat weapon damage increase of...what? 70? 100? lol

I think that might mean they need to reduce stamcro's power down a bit. Paired with this buff, at least 1 stamden or magden might be wanted. Higher chance if paired with other damage buffs to existing damage skills(once bandaids have been removed and the class "finished").

ATreeGnome · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I know. I want it to speed up too. But it's the best effort from them we've gotten in a while, maybe even ever. It's not like angry protesting helps unless there are overwhelming numbers of us. Taking a calm and supporting route to this sort of thing saves us sanity and might make our arguments more persuasive.

I agree in a way, but I also disagree in ways. I get what you're saying, but at some point when so many suggestions are put out there by legitimate end-game PVE players who genuinely want the class to improve, but simply get ignored by devs, it becomes nearly impossible to approach this in a diplomatic way. I feel like part of the problem is, as I said earlier, the lack of representation at the table. Someone should have stood up against the off-balance change and how it would negatively impact Wardens, but i'm quite confident no one did. We're the redheaded stepchild of ESO.

Even wardens aside, it often feels like balance issues in general are often left as "good enough" for extended periods of time or concerns from experienced players over new changes are often ignored.

thadjarvis · January 2020

@ESO_Nightingale

Thanks, I know you always listen with open ears. Didn't mean to come off brutish if so.

Something to keep in mind as an outsider of Trial PvE: players (even intermediates) spend likely more time parsing, working on builds, putting together teams, researching mechanics, talking between pulls about how to adjust and analyzing add-on/log reports than they do actually fighting in a progression or score trial. Even at low levels optimizing is part of our gaming experience and we like it

I stopped participating on the discord bc most posts by me or others seemed to get pushed to the ideas' effects on PvP 1v1 or 1vX balance. I know that's important to a lot, but for me the discussions aren't that interesting as when I sign on ESO, it's primarily to do group content.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Actually i'd extend that buff to the Warden + 5. Half the group is feasible for a buff that small.

Maybe. I always thought that our unique damage dealer buff should have been minor courage. Maybe if it applies to a few people around you for 15 seconds on both morphs, that would be pretty interesting. Either that or splitting up the regen buffs on enchanted growth and moving them to dps skills.

If it were minor courage I think that would be a good first step, but hardly solve the problem. No one is benching a Stamcro for a flat weapon damage increase of...what? 70? 100? lol

I think that might mean they need to reduce stamcro's power down a bit. Paired with this buff, at least 1 stamden or magden might be wanted. Higher chance if paired with other damage buffs to existing damage skills(once bandaids have been removed and the class "finished").

They've needed to whap Necro with a nerf bat for three patches. That doesn't seem to be likely, so if Necro is the "defining" DPS class, other classes need to be brought in line.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

Thanks, I know you always listen with open ears. Didn't mean to come off brutish if so.

Something to keep in mind as an outsider of Trial PvE: players (even intermediates) spend likely more time parsing, working on builds, putting together teams, researching mechanics, talking between pulls about how to adjust and analyzing add-on/log reports than they do actually fighting in a progression or score trial. Even at low levels optimizing is part of our gaming experience and we like it

I stopped participating on the discord bc most posts by me or others seemed to get pushed to the ideas' effects on PvP 1v1 or 1vX balance. I know that's important to a lot, but for me the discussions aren't that interesting as when I sign on ESO, it's primarily to do group content.

I have been in a trial environment so i know how it works generally speaking. But always down to hear more about wardens experiences with trials. I don't have a ton of experience with it because i find casual pve and solo pvp more interesting. So much of my information comes from other people. Everyone has their own biases. Me included. Not everyone can agree on certain changes and sometimes people cant see why others think that way. I do my best to keep an open mind but be firm in my points. When it comes to suggestions i try to solve certain pain points while also trying to achive what i want. Which is, to no-one's surprise at this point, frost dps.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Thinking about it, your proposed Arctic Blast change would be ideal. Putting the Magden spammable in the Winter's Embrace tree would allow Dive to be double-Stam morphed, which is perfect. The current morph could remain the same for those who desire to play bow/bow "Ranger" Wardens, as I know there are quite a few, while the alternative could be redesigned as a melee spammable with a bleed triggering off a different requirement, or a new effect entirely.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

I think we are jumping the gun here. I'd like to discuss it a bit more. I'd be totally okay with deleting SCR. But i know other wardens wouldn't like that change at all. And AB4.0 isn't a spammable in design. It's an AoE Burst Skill and Stun. It would combo with deep fissure extremely well though. Which is one of the many reasons i think it's a good idea.

Anyway i will be back later. It's like 6:30am and I've been talking all night.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

I....definitely forgot about that. RIP.

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

Maybe if the passive that increases the chance to proc chilled applied to more than just Winter’s Embrace skills, then a Frost enchant on DW off-hand might give enough uptime to make it viable. That would give about 3X the uptime you’d see right now.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

COMPILATION:

Arctic Blast Spammable Change (Proposed by Nightingale)

Sub Assault applies Morag-style Poison damage buff (Proposed by Wrath/Bjorn)

Dive Double-Stam Morph (Proposed by Bjorn)

Bear ult gives Minor Courage (Proposed by Nightingale)

This would at least go a long way toward bringing Warden back to some relevance in PVE end-game content. New spammables for each variant that are more class-suited and make way more sense contextually without hurting anyone else, a Morag-styled buff to give Wardens a real punch with Stamcros in PVE content, and minor courage to finally put it in the game.

Claw of Yolnakhriin gives minor courage already.

I'm still pissed about that to this day.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Maybe if the passive that increases the chance to proc chilled applied to more than just Winter’s Embrace skills, then a Frost enchant on DW off-hand might give enough uptime to make it viable. That would give about 3X the uptime you’d see right now.

Still has to be weighed against the loss of poisons which are so strong atm. I just don't think a Stamden running a frost glyph is ever going to be a feasible solution there. You're going to rely on others. Especially with the Infused on DW nerf, and Infused not really being viable at all on 2H.