The Monopoly on Tanking

meaghs · April 2014

You are free to choose the most ineffective build possible.

Raapnaap · April 2014

Fortunately, ESO's skill setup is done in such as way that the implementation of new class and weapon skill lines can be done with some efficiency. It's easy enough to come up with new class and weapon skill lines that focus on healing, tanking, and utility/support (damage already has more than enough options for the time being).

It is just a matter of (development) time until we see these added. I would, personally, as far as content updates go, put such skill lines high on the to-do list, seeing as they impact a much larger portion of the playerbase than any dungeon or zone content would.

Eormenric · April 2014

There has been a lot of good suggestions made about how ESO can offer more variety and still make the roles of Tanking, Healing, and Dpsing (though this isn't really a big deal as it stands) viable with such variety. That way, things wouldn't be worse between the types of ways to tank or heal, they'd be plainly different (balanced in pros and cons).

meaghs wrote: »

You are free to choose the most ineffective build possible.

Beautifully simple response. In a game like ESO, we do have our fail-safes for this: resetting skill points, stats, choosing new weapons. But I think we all can agree that if there's something we're wanting to do, and the game is straight-up saying "it's failing bro, do something else", we're going to be upset. And we're really going to be upset knowing that it's an Elder Scrolls game telling us that. And we're really going to be upset knowing that for so much "choice", there really are still obviously-better paths that say "this is the only way to effectively play your role."

Something I've noticed--and I'm sure many have as well--is that when you "max" a skill, it stops at a full IV. We know that the first skill can morph after reaching this max. So the obvious expectation for the future is more morphs. But where will those morphs take us? Will SnS skills that started out as fully defensive become more damage-dealing? Will DW skills that started out as fully offensive become more about survival? I would love to see Rapid Strikes morph into something that would then grant a life steal. Or maybe Blood Craze morphing into something with dodge (then DW Nightblade's could be dodge-tanks with self-healing). Steel Tornado morphing into something that creates a shield for X amount per enemy hit. The possibilities we can dream about...

But sadly, that's only a POSSIBLE future. Will more morphs come? Most likely. When? Oh... I wouldn't expect it for at least a year. That's a long time to have only SnS tanks and Restoration Staffs running around. It gets old, it's non-optional in harder scenarios, it's gonna be expected...

Off the bat, they should have had at least--AT THE VERY LEAST; not too much to ask--two EFFECTIVE methods of tanking and healing. Methods that have pros and cons that make you scratch your head and enjoy the pondering at which you'll want to go. I would have been okay with hybrid-like methods such as morphs (or even passives) that helped boost defenses and tanking/healing capabilities for nearly each weapon. Yes there is that for some, but they're minute and not large enough to really be called hybrid. Right now, it's SnS and Restoration Staff for tanking and healing. There needs to be more effective variety.

Halrloprillalar · April 2014

I don't really see an issue with specific roles requiring specific builds. You are only doing that role in group play, and whatever your solo spec the rest of the time.

You don't *have* to tank; since group size (regular) is 4, there will always be a tank and a healer for every one dps.

sgtalexinsidpreeb18_ESO · April 2014

there is a reason u can carry 2 sets of webons.... why not have tanky set on the other instead of another set of dps knifes?

Eormenric · April 2014

sgtalexinsidpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

there is a reason u can carry 2 sets of webons.... why not have tanky set on the other instead of another set of dps knifes?

This is something I'm already going to do. I actually don't know if the shield counts as another armor, or if it counts as a weapon. If it's not a weapon, there is where I have an edge, but it's not that great of one. Still, it's something I'm going to use to what advantage I can.

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

I don't really see an issue with specific roles requiring specific builds. You are only doing that role in group play, and whatever your solo spec the rest of the time.

You don't *have* to tank; since group size (regular) is 4, there will always be a tank and a healer for every one dps.

Any role does need some set of viable skills to complement it. But that's not really what I'm addressing.

Yes solo-play is very different from group, which is why I'm not bringing that up. Group is where the bulk of time-spent is going to be.

Of course I don't "have" to be a tank. But I "want" to. You can find further information about such discussions in previous posts.

Bubby1120 · April 2014

I just wanted to correct something you have repeated erroneously twice. WOW was not a first generation MMO. If you wanted to go via generations, it would look something like Meridian 59 as early first gen, Everquest, Ultima Online, Lineage and Asherons Call as First Gen. Second gen was Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online 2, Final Fantasy 11, Eve Online, City of Heroes, Ragnarok Online, RuneScape and Lineage 2. Along comes third generation which is where WoW, Everquest 2, The Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings, Age of Conan, Star Wars the Old Republic and Warhammer Online.

The fact is, if you want to measure success by the numbers, WoW's subscriptions were high. Not the highest reported, but high. Ragnarok Online reported subscribers in excess of 25 million. But the matrices for measurement can be skewed. In terms of your comment of WoW doing it like no one else, that is just plain false. There was little, if any, content that WoW pioneered. In terms of size of PVE content, Everquest 1 has the current record for sheer amount. BG's were nothing new, as Dark Age of Camelot had been doing them for a while prior.

Do not think I am anti WoW, I played the game and got my enjoyment from it. I just do not like people spouting erroneous facts. WoW was 7 years late to the game, and thus has an extensive pool of knowledge from which to draw.

In terms of being able to tank, in this game so far I have found the standard model of tanking is something they are working on. Can you have a sword and board tank go toe to toe with the big bad boss? Sure. Can you heavy DPS face roll the mob as well? In my experience so far yes. There will always be builds that are optimal and builds that are unique. Unique does not equal good nor bad. It can be either, or average. If you find a particular build isn't working as well as another in a circumstance, adapt. I know you don't like to have to use something you didn't craft from scratch, but sometimes teamwork is about sacrificing for the team.

Tetujin · April 2014

I am one who risks projecting pre-conceived notions onto this discussion for sure, just based on lack of experience in the game so far, trends I'm programmed with from other games, and what I hear or read in general which probably has the same pitfalls.

It doesn't have to be optimal to work, other times something may not work, just as you say. To me the game is a lot of fun and don't want to come across as negative. The weapon swap itself, as mentioned above, is enough to make things feel unrestricted in general.

As a general feedback though, I still suggest they look into new skill lines in the future that can let people fill roles with other weapons, just because it would be cool. More open character concepts. It seems like the current system could be brilliant for this, with limited active skills and general all-purpose pools for resources.

A line with an ability that lowers damage and changes the stamina-shunt equation. Or something that instead uses a ward to shunt to magicka instead if it is slotted, giving a way to build a defensive-type that focuses on the magic side.

If they could make it work I think it would be well received, and it is just too tempting to request because of how extensible the system appears. If it is against their vision, or difficult to account for problematic synergies then I default to trusting their judgment and do enjoy it now as it is as well. But please consider it.

Eormenric · April 2014

Bubby1120 wrote: »

I just wanted to correct something you have repeated erroneously twice. WOW was not a first generation MMO. If you wanted to go via generations, it would look something like Meridian 59 as early first gen, Everquest, Ultima Online, Lineage and Asherons Call as First Gen. Second gen was Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online 2, Final Fantasy 11, Eve Online, City of Heroes, Ragnarok Online, RuneScape and Lineage 2. Along comes third generation which is where WoW, Everquest 2, The Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings, Age of Conan, Star Wars the Old Republic and Warhammer Online.

The fact is, if you want to measure success by the numbers, WoW's subscriptions were high. Not the highest reported, but high. Ragnarok Online reported subscribers in excess of 25 million. But the matrices for measurement can be skewed. In terms of your comment of WoW doing it like no one else, that is just plain false. There was little, if any, content that WoW pioneered. In terms of size of PVE content, Everquest 1 has the current record for sheer amount. BG's were nothing new, as Dark Age of Camelot had been doing them for a while prior.

Do not think I am anti WoW, I played the game and got my enjoyment from it. I just do not like people spouting erroneous facts. WoW was 7 years late to the game, and thus has an extensive pool of knowledge from which to draw.

In terms of being able to tank, in this game so far I have found the standard model of tanking is something they are working on. Can you have a sword and board tank go toe to toe with the big bad boss? Sure. Can you heavy DPS face roll the mob as well? In my experience so far yes. There will always be builds that are optimal and builds that are unique. Unique does not equal good nor bad. It can be either, or average. If you find a particular build isn't working as well as another in a circumstance, adapt. I know you don't like to have to use something you didn't craft from scratch, but sometimes teamwork is about sacrificing for the team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games

Might be inspired if this wasn't all taken directly (and borderline exactly) from Wikipedia. "Generation" itself is highly known as an ambiguous term, generally having several different meaning. All meaning are accepted so long as they are understood, just like any other ambiguous word. I agree I may have not chosen the best word to describe the analogy with WoW, but if one fact remains it's that ESO would be in the same boat as other MMOs starting out now. They all have years of previous MMOs successes and failures to go off of (something I stated before).

Your saying that a "heavy DPS" taking on a mob is very different than a boss. I'm also not convinced of your veteran rank experience if you believe this is possible in a dungeon. The bosses in veteran rank dungeons hit far too hard and have far too much health to be sustained by some dps, be they even "heavy". I specified before that the SnS can determine the sustain the particular player has if they aren't a tank, while being seen as a tank (let's remove the SnS factor and say 49 points into health with heavy armor) offers obviously more sustain.

I agree, though, with your comment about uniqueness and the sacrifices of teamwork. However, in an MMO, where the main goal of any person is to enjoy themselves, we can all agree that people enjoy themselves (and perhaps only) when they engage in decisions of their own--something not forced on by the game. The role of tanking or healing should not be a sacrifice made by the player. It should be flexible and something nearly any player can enjoy. Now if there were several options and I didn't fancy any (at time of playing), then obviously I wouldn't tank. But since there's only one option for effective tanking, that particular discussion can't really be brought up.