The Monopoly on Tanking

Eormenric

Tanking... we all know exactly what it is. For those that don't:
*Hold the big, bad beasties that would 1-2 shot your party members.
*Have the biggest defenses (health, resistances, etc) in your party to be effective at damage mitigation.
*Deflect/reflect, block, dodge, etc attacks to help reduce the amount of healing you require from the healing (who may as well have many other things to do).
*And biggest of all, don't die. Sure this goes for everyone, but for the tank, it literally makes or breaks any encounter needing one.

So, now that we all know what tanking means, let's look at tanking in ESO.

One word? Monopolized.

Don't have a Sword and Shield? Want to tank? As /zone people would say "LOL!" But why is that? Well, it's because every other weapon is focused on being just that: a weapon. Not a defensive item, no no. There is no other weapon skill line besides the Sword and Shield that offer any of a protective nature worth glancing at. This is stupid.

Look, we all know ESO was going to be different. It still even needs time to work out what it wants to do. But one option for tanking is absolutely stupid... There's at least two ways to heal (which is also stupid, but at least that's better than one). One from Templars and one from Restoration Staffs (combining is almost always needed, though). This is better than simply one (even though it still feels like one). But for tanking, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE.

I like to say "screw it" to convention and norm and what everyone else does. Standing by that, I said, "Hey, I'm going to tank. I'll get heavy armor, put 49 points into health, blah blah, but I'm not using SnS, I'm gonna use Dual Wields." Not to your surprise, it's still been an easy road 1-50. But that's because 1-50 is child's play, am I right? NOTHING is difficult except soloing world bosses without CC. So let's ignore any means of discussion there.

What the real big deal is, is this: Veteran. For those who have had enough time off or skipped through the dialogue, like myself and so many others, you've experienced (or are experiencing) this part of the game. It's kinda difficult, right? "FINALLY!" cries everyone everywhere. But let's take a look at the dungeons, because those are the real hot topic here.

Tanking in a Veteran dungeon without a SnS is like going to a gun fight with a knife... in a stroller, naked, and wearing a thin blindfold that allows you to see only your demise. As I'll try not to say too many times--this is absolutely stupid. The SnS is a monopoly on tanking that says "If you want to tank, you must use me to be effective." Of course content can 'eventually' be completed without such. But at what time? To what degree? How much of an annoyance or hindrance is this going to be in the mean time? It's going to be a lot.

When I die for whatever reason in a Veteran dungeon, and someone else in the group (healer or dps) is sporting an SnS, they literally, no matter what armor they're wearing, are able to pick the boss up and hold him better than myself until I'm rezzed. *Straight face* "Are you kidding me? Sure I bring more than a meat-shield to the party, but really? Like it's no big deal they Puncture and hold block for 10+ seconds until I'm rezzed?..." The amount of mitigation the SnS provides is ridiculous. Again, no other weapon skill line offers such degree of bonuses.

I'm a NightBlade Tank. I got a lot of self-healing and have a little dodge thrown in the mix. I like to believe I'm better at trash pulls than someone who isn't my type because of the amount of AoE and CC I possess, but trash isn't what people come to dungeons for.

Overall, my biggest complaint is the singularity of tanking (and practically healing). There's tons of ways to dps and you can argue which is best, but it's no contest that tanking effectively (where the group/healer isn't going to believe you're not worth the invite) relies on whether or not you're using an SnS. That's all it boils down to.

I'd like to be told I'm wrong and that maybe something is missing. But in all my experience and everything I've seen and read, I'm not getting my hopes up. And I'm not sure if I should get my hopes up that ESO will have more options in the future. As it stands right now, if content doesn't provide an expected challenge while not basically telling me I've insofar failed at my build, I don't know how long I'll stay.

ESO preaches "do what you want", but it's all a lie just like the cake. There are paths, there are expectations, there are requirements. I'm not feeling like I can do what I want. I'm feeling like I can fail how I want...

So how about some more variety AND options in tanking and healing? If that's not present or talked about by the first major patch, I think I'm out, because then ESO probably won't consider anything like that.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

There's at least two ways to heal (which is also stupid, but at least that's better than one). One from Templars and one from Restoration Staffs (combining is almost always needed, though).

Im a resto staff nightblade healer... and NO ive healed ALL the dungeons ive done as main healer and i still dont think a healer absolutely needs to be a templar. Nightblade healer do exist the same as NB tank exist and i wouldnt even say no if a sorcerer healer showed up. Only class that is good healwise only at Healing itself is the dragonknight.

Nox_Aeterna

Oh well , it makes perfect sense to me that a sword/shield would allow you to block atks better than 2 knives/swords... but who knows , maybe it is just me.

I agree , dual wielding could have a move to pick agro , but should NOT get moves to decrease dmg or to just tank better like the sword/shield.

Bring the right tools for the job, instead of complaining you cant cut with precision while using a hammer.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

You know... you dont need to block melee attacks at ALL when using dual wield if you actualy perma blind the targets? It only work in melee however and wont block/ignore spells. Still i can block boss with just any weapon (staff included) and i sometime end up having to do it even if im the healer. Blocking cost a large amount of stamina however and as such its just normal that sword/shield wich has lowered blocking stamina cost do a better job at it

Eormenric

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

There's at least two ways to heal (which is also stupid, but at least that's better than one). One from Templars and one from Restoration Staffs (combining is almost always needed, though).

Im a resto staff nightblade healer... and NO ive healed ALL the dungeons ive done as main healer and i still dont think a healer absolutely needs to be a templar. Nightblade healer do exist the same as NB tank exist and i wouldnt even say no if a sorcerer healer showed up. Only class that is good healwise only at Healing itself is the dragonknight.

You misunderstood what I was saying... Templar is the only class that has a Class Tree devoted to healing. No other class has this. I know Nightblade healer exists. It's something I wanted to do. I'm going DK Healer, though, to have extra bubbles.

Eormenric

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

You know... you dont need to block melee attacks at ALL when using dual wield if you actualy perma blind the targets? It only work in melee however and wont block/ignore spells. Still i can block boss with just any weapon (staff included) and i sometime end up having to do it even if im the healer. Blocking cost a large amount of stamina however and as such its just normal that sword/shield wich has lowered blocking stamina cost do a better job at it

You can't perma-blind bosses. I haven't checked to see if you can reduce their damage. All you can do is reduce their armor. It looks like bosses are immune to anything that could lower or prevent their damage.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

resto staff itself got a bubble called Healing ward

Eormenric

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Oh well , it makes perfect sense to me that a sword/shield would allow you to block atks better than 2 knives/swords... but who knows , maybe it is just me.

I agree , dual wielding could have a move to pick agro , but should NOT get moves to decrease dmg or to just tank better like the sword/shield.

Bring the right tools for the job, instead of complaining you cant cut with precision while using a hammer.

We're not arguing realistic expectations. This is a videogame. If simple blocking exists, it should be the same for whatever blocks. Now I'm okay spending more stamina to block. Magicka and Stamina are an abundance for me, I never ever run out. But SnS has a lot of increase block mitigation. That's part of its monopoly.

I don't mind having to use the Undaunted taunt, in fact I prefer it. But there should be more defensive options in each weapon tree as opposed to just the SnS.

You seem to think I'm merely complaining that something isn't working out for what I want. If you choose to believe this, I can't and won't help you. What I am doing is pointing out that ESO has no options in the role of tanking and very few in the role of healing.

Other MMOs have things like talents, or skill trees, or classes. There's usually at least two different forms of each thing and hybrids all about. But ESO gives you one way to tank effectively (possibly at all in VR10), and practically one way to heal effectively (with a restoration staff equipped, though any class can heal, still the Templar is the only one with a tree to promote this--even allow it without a restoration staff).

FoleyX90

I think they need to add at least 2 more guilds:

Clergy - You get a skill line that's specifically related to healing / support - This way you can be a healer no matter what the fsck type of weapon / class you choose

Companions (or whatever else) - You get a skill line that's specifically for taunting and/or stamina recovery / damage mitigation - This way, you can be a tank no matter what the fsck type of weapon / class you choose

This is my 2 cents.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Eormenric wrote: »

Tanking... we all know exactly what it is. For those that don't:
*Hold the big, bad beasties that would 1-2 shot your party members.
*Have the biggest defenses (health, resistances, etc) in your party to be effective at damage mitigation.
*Deflect/reflect, block, dodge, etc attacks to help reduce the amount of healing you require from the healing (who may as well have many other things to do).
*And biggest of all, don't die. Sure this goes for everyone, but for the tank, it literally makes or breaks any encounter needing one.

So, now that we all know what tanking means, let's look at tanking in ESO.

One word? Monopolized.

Don't have a Sword and Shield? Want to tank? As /zone people would say "LOL!" But why is that? Well, it's because every other weapon is focused on being just that: a weapon. Not a defensive item, no no. There is no other weapon skill line besides the Sword and Shield that offer any of a protective nature worth glancing at. This is stupid.

Look, we all know ESO was going to be different. It still even needs time to work out what it wants to do. But one option for tanking is absolutely stupid... There's at least two ways to heal (which is also stupid, but at least that's better than one). One from Templars and one from Restoration Staffs (combining is almost always needed, though). This is better than simply one (even though it still feels like one). But for tanking, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE.

I like to say "screw it" to convention and norm and what everyone else does. Standing by that, I said, "Hey, I'm going to tank. I'll get heavy armor, put 49 points into health, blah blah, but I'm not using SnS, I'm gonna use Dual Wields." Not to your surprise, it's still been an easy road 1-50. But that's because 1-50 is child's play, am I right? NOTHING is difficult except soloing world bosses without CC. So let's ignore any means of discussion there.

What the real big deal is, is this: Veteran. For those who have had enough time off or skipped through the dialogue, like myself and so many others, you've experienced (or are experiencing) this part of the game. It's kinda difficult, right? "FINALLY!" cries everyone everywhere. But let's take a look at the dungeons, because those are the real hot topic here.

Tanking in a Veteran dungeon without a SnS is like going to a gun fight with a knife... in a stroller, naked, and wearing a thin blindfold that allows you to see only your demise. As I'll try not to say too many times--this is absolutely stupid. The SnS is a monopoly on tanking that says "If you want to tank, you must use me to be effective." Of course content can 'eventually' be completed without such. But at what time? To what degree? How much of an annoyance or hindrance is this going to be in the mean time? It's going to be a lot.

When I die for whatever reason in a Veteran dungeon, and someone else in the group (healer or dps) is sporting an SnS, they literally, no matter what armor they're wearing, are able to pick the boss up and hold him better than myself until I'm rezzed. *Straight face* "Are you kidding me? Sure I bring more than a meat-shield to the party, but really? Like it's no big deal they Puncture and hold block for 10+ seconds until I'm rezzed?..." The amount of mitigation the SnS provides is ridiculous. Again, no other weapon skill line offers such degree of bonuses.

I'm a NightBlade Tank. I got a lot of self-healing and have a little dodge thrown in the mix. I like to believe I'm better at trash pulls than someone who isn't my type because of the amount of AoE and CC I possess, but trash isn't what people come to dungeons for.

Overall, my biggest complaint is the singularity of tanking (and practically healing). There's tons of ways to dps and you can argue which is best, but it's no contest that tanking effectively (where the group/healer isn't going to believe you're not worth the invite) relies on whether or not you're using an SnS. That's all it boils down to.

I'd like to be told I'm wrong and that maybe something is missing. But in all my experience and everything I've seen and read, I'm not getting my hopes up. And I'm not sure if I should get my hopes up that ESO will have more options in the future. As it stands right now, if content doesn't provide an expected challenge while not basically telling me I've insofar failed at my build, I don't know how long I'll stay.

ESO preaches "do what you want", but it's all a lie just like the cake. There are paths, there are expectations, there are requirements. I'm not feeling like I can do what I want. I'm feeling like I can fail how I want...

So how about some more variety AND options in tanking and healing? If that's not present or talked about by the first major patch, I think I'm out, because then ESO probably won't consider anything like that.

I disagree. 2h weapons have some defensive abilities if you choose the right morphs (ie Cleave when morphed to Brawler gives you a damage shield every time you use it.)

Sergeant_Novak

I agree with what you are saying, but you have to admit the providing a few different means for tanking can be difficult task balancing wise. I'm not all saying it can't be done right, but I do see some challenges. Making sure all methods are somewhat equal in their overall effectiveness and making a few viable for 'meta' content but still have that content to be strainful, not streamlined and easy. You could say that about DPS too, but managing a vital support roll such as tank might be more of a complicated task.

I don't know, I hope for the best. We might see some skill lines in the future that could help with this as well.

navystylz_ESO

I disagree. There are only TWO passives in SnS that can't be gotten from others, as far as I know. And those increase how much more dmg you can block. Everything else comes from other skill lines.

Heavy Armor, Fighters, Undaunted, etc. Use right enchants maybe some more armor. But I highly doubt 2 passives and the reflect active active are the only thing keeping you from tanking well.

Eormenric

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. There are only TWO passives in SnS that can't be gotten from others, as far as I know. And those increase how much more dmg you can block. Everything else comes from other skill lines.

Heavy Armor, Fighters, Undaunted, etc. Use right enchants maybe some more armor. But I highly doubt 2 passives and the reflect active active are the only thing keeping you from tanking well.

There are 3.5 if you want to get technical with the .5 (which is deadly bash). I'm saying that all these bonuses are packaged into ONE single outlet: the SnS. Fortress, Sword and Board, Deflect Bolts, those are the other three. There is nothing like these in other weapon PASSIVES.

Of course heavy armor is still a given with tanking (unless you use SnS and a class/guild that includes a lot of defensive bonuses), so I'm not arguing the use of that. Fighters has only one good ability and that's Ring of Preservation. As it stands, that's about my only constant means of stamina use (besides blocking). And since I have Leeching Strikes up at all times, that still leaves me with far too much stamina than I need (and wish I could be using on useful things).

And take a look at this: If I want to taunt a monster, I use Inner Beast from the Undaunted. If I want to reduce their armor by 40%, I use Surprise Attack from my Shadow skill line. If I want to increase my armor by a small amount, well, it's never a small amount, I either pick up Ring of Preservation or use Dark Cloak and gain the defensive bonus after coming out of stealth 1 second later.

If the SnS wants to achieve all of this, you know what it does? Ransack... One single ability to my three. Plus, I have nothing like Pierce Armor to support my caster dps, unlike the SnS. What a lot of ability room it saves... Deep Slash is the same as my Dark Shades, so I won't argue that, but it does come at a stamina cost which I'd prefer. Absorb Magic? Yeah, that's only with SnS and Templar's Total Dark (which is just a crappier version anyway, and strange considering it's a more-important CLASS SKILL).Shielded Assault is a stamina-using attack that also has defensive capabilities. So far all my abilities are one or the other... And Power Bash means nothing in dungeons, so we won't discuss that.

It is not just TWO passives preventing me from being as good as a tank as someone wielding a SnS. It is a lot more. A lot more. As it stands right now, it doesn't matter how well I optimize my gear, or choose the best abilities for the encounter, I and no others can be as an effective (in all uses of the word) tank as one with a SnS. I'd like a second option at launch, not three months later.

To those who would argue something like, "WoW only had one plate user for Horde to tank with," or something like that. To that specific example, I would say that WoW, at it's time, was a generation one MMO. It had a lot to learn. ESO is coming to us in a generation where a lot has been seen in MMOs and some has or hasn't been well-received. That should have been a factor in their deciding what should be in ESO. One such factor should have been versatility in roles, as in two or more ways to do one thing. But it seemingly wasn't considered.

natsuki

FoleyX90 wrote: »

I think they need to add at least 2 more guilds:

Clergy - You get a skill line that's specifically related to healing / support - This way you can be a healer no matter what the fsck type of weapon / class you choose

Companions (or whatever else) - You get a skill line that's specifically for taunting and/or stamina recovery / damage mitigation - This way, you can be a tank no matter what the fsck type of weapon / class you choose

This is my 2 cents.

I haven't come close to playing at end game level yet so I can't comment on wether a problem actuall exists. However, assuming the problem exists as OP describes, the above seems like the perfect lore-friendly and ESO game design friendly way to address it. Very simple and flexible, hats off to you sir!

To the comment about balance.. I agree that's an important concern. I think about how, in WoW, there were times when you highly preferred or didn't bring at all certain types of taks to certain fights (war vs pally vs bear).. or had certain tanks often getting stuck into certain OT roles.. until eventually all tank types wound up with the same basic types of tools just differnt skill names.. I think the above solution still makes balance manageable. It basically gives you a 'role' skill line that is decoupled from other aspects of character development.

Ziz

Yes you need a shield to be the best tank. Just like a healer needs a healing staff and a dps needs a dps weapon.

The entire op is confusing. Mad because you can't do what... Be a light armor dual wield tank?

Thechemicals

I dont see the use for a shield if everyone can hybrid tank veteran content without a shield. Whats in it for the shield user? What does he get out of this if everyone can do what he does? Would he be able to dps like he is using a 2h? Whats in it for 2h if a shield user can dps for more than him?

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

The undaunted line has a taunt in it which (afaik) doesn't require a shield. Also if you just stack enough armor and spell resists, maybe with some bubble/damage resist type things i have little doubt you can tank without a shield and do just fine.

Blarg

So... You say you're better at DPS, AoE, and trash pulls than other tanks because of your dual wield... but you're annoyed that you lose some of your defense by making this choice... Uh... ok. You say you CAN tank veteren content dungeons with dual wield even though it's a hassle and is more difficult... but then you say there's no options for tanking other than sword and shield... Uh... ok.

So, you want the perks of your unique choice of tanking, without the downside. You don't just want choices for tanking, you want equal quality choices for specifically tanking bosses (since you said yourself your dodge makes tanking trash easy).

Yeah, ok, I'm sorry your theory of the super nightblade dual wield tank didn't work out exactly as well as sword and SHIELD tanks when it comes to veteren level bosses as you'd hoped. But... yeah, no, I'm just sorry.

Eormenric

Blarg wrote: »

So... You say you're better at DPS, AoE, and trash pulls than other tanks because of your dual wield... but you're annoyed that you lose some of your defense by making this choice... Uh... ok. You say you CAN tank veteren content dungeons with dual wield even though it's a hassle and is more difficult... but then you say there's no options for tanking other than sword and shield... Uh... ok.

So, you want the perks of your unique choice of tanking, without the downside. You don't just want choices for tanking, you want equal quality choices for specifically tanking bosses (since you said yourself your dodge makes tanking trash easy).

Yeah, ok, I'm sorry your theory of the super nightblade dual wield tank didn't work out exactly as well as sword and SHIELD tanks when it comes to veteren level bosses as you'd hoped. But... yeah, no, I'm just sorry.

I said I like to believe I'm better at AoE trash pulls, but as I pointed out before, trash means nothing in dungeons. People don't come to dungeons hoping for drops off trash--the bosses are the real deal. This is hardly a trade-off, I was merely pointing out what I have over a SnS user. My DW abilities give me AoE capabilities, okay. The SnS gives survival and support. I think we can all agree that SnS is the preferred method for nearly every boss fight, yes? Okay.

Yes, I CAN tank Veteran content with dual wield. But that use of the word "tank" stretches it to merely "Hold the big, bad beasties that would 1-2 shot your party members". It does not provide the other expectations that a tank has. I'm saying that the SnS is all-inclusive for the role of tank. No other weapon provides such bonuses as useful as the SnS for tanking (to the point of actually calling it such). Yes, I CAN mimic a taunt, a 40% armor reduction, some armor buffs, and other mitigation. But the ability to do that spans over multiple skills while the SnS has one skill for three of those AND PASSIVES to account for much, much more than I can muster on one action bar alone.

Since I'm not VR10 yet, I haven't crafted two sets of Dual Wields (each will have their tanking purpose). That will give me more skills to use once I have it. But both action bars would be used for tanking whereas I've seen tanks use a single bar for all-purpose tanking, and a second bar for more dps or AoE-focused attention/purpose.

What I want is real, balanced choice. I agree with natsuki in that a form of balance is needed. There should be (at the very least) two TYPES of tanks: One for the biggest mitigation, but little damage or support or uniqueness, and another type for not so much mitigation (or just a CHANCE (e.g. Druids in WoW with their dodge sprees) at the same level of mitigation), but they bring more to the party. Or something of a hybrid in general. Yes the guild tanking idea would work brilliantly and I fully support something along those lines (and the healing one, too).

I do want choices and, obviously, balanced choices for tanking. Simply choosing DW isn't a choice to tank, it's just being different and I know that. But I never realized to what degree I would be penalized for my choice. Oh, and I merely said I have a little dodge to throw into the mix, not that that makes me particularly good with trash.

See from my point of view that a game that preaches choice is seriously lacking in it. Given what Elder Scrolls is about, I think we all should have expected more choice in the roles we'd want to play, even if it's now an MMO which slightly changes things up. Slightly.

Darkholynova

I'd like to point out that the game is a week old and even world of warcraft took years to balance the tanking situation so paladins could be something other than cloth wearing healers and bear druids weren't laughed at. The majority of vanilla content was tanked by sword and board warriors.

We want the bugs fixed, we want role diversity, we want balanced pvp, we want new end game content, we want everything and we want it now. =D

Eormenric

Darkholynova wrote: »

I'd like to point out that the game is a week old and even world of warcraft took years to balance the tanking situation so paladins could be something other than cloth wearing healers and bear druids weren't laughed at. The majority of vanilla content was tanked by sword and board warriors.

We want the bugs fixed, we want role diversity, we want balanced pvp, we want new end game content, we want everything and we want it now. =D

As I said before: WoW was a generation one MMO. It was a very early coming for the MMO genre. I'm sure there were some before it, but nothing to the scale WoW was (or the following for that matter). WoW was just doing whatever until players responded and they began to realize what the average or the most players wanted or thought was important to change.

ESO has had years and years of watching other MMOs succeed and fail. On all of that foundation, it baffles me how they could have had these types of problems at launch. Makes me wonder what Private Beta Testers were giving feedback on...

Kodiak

This topic seems silly. It's like complaining that the only weapon line that can heal other players is Restoration Staff. Why doesn't my 2 Handed Sword let me heal other people!?!? If you want to heal, you use a Resto Staff. If you want to tank, you use 1HS. There are a variety of tools for a variety of scenarios and you bring the right tool for the job. There are plenty of skill points (well over 200 before PvP) to spec into any variety of tools for any variety of situations.

This "problem" is a personal one and it's why it was never even considered an issue during private beta.

Stx

I am confused.

You are unhappy that a sword and SHIELD skill is able to tank better than blade weapons, and magic staves? Are you also unhappy that heavy armor provides more damage mitigation over light armor?

But I wanna tank in my boxers! Come on.

If you really want to tank with dps weapons, Im sure you can pull it off if you get creative enough. Enchant your gear with -block cost, and use lots of self healing/dodge abilities. Make sure your armor/spell resist is always much higher than the soft cap. Cap your health. A nightblade can boost his dual wield attack speed by 50%, and heal 4% HP with every swing he lands.

You still probably wont be able to tank vet dungeons, but then again, I cant heal vet dungeons with my axe wielding barbarian either... so yeah, if you want to tank, use a shield?

Eormenric

This is not a complaining topic for those who have clearly not read everything posted here. This topic is mainly about the concern of "choice" ESO is claiming players have.

As I stated before, when choosing to tank, there is no real choice. You either pick SnS like everyone else, or you get complaints for not picking it "for some reason". There is no real choice in tanking. With healing, there is a slight choice in the fact that you can either use a Restoration Staff, or be a Templar and focus everything into Magicka and increasing your healing capabilities from the Restoring Light skill tree. But I've been healed by a Templar doing this and without a Restoration Staff. It wasn't the best healing, but we can also say the player may have been doing something wrong. So that's why I leave it as a slight-choice. But again, for tanking, there is none. SnS holds any and all of the defensive capabilities that can be offered by a weapon.

A Nightblade with Dual Wield can boost attack speed by up to 45%, but that 15% only lasts 6 seconds, and Focused Attacks (the likely Haste morph) gives an unneeded regeneration of stamina. Why is it unneeded? Well, if I'm going to try and be a Swing-Machine with Leeching Strikes (which really isn't all that grand anyway), I'm probably not going to do a lot of blocking. "So then use the stamina on defensive things," you may suggest. I could, I have, and I've seen still what little difference it makes as opposed to simply blocking. So the Swing-Machine strategy seldom works and will likely not be considered for Veteran content (unless/until you're overgeared).

I don't see how opponents of the need for variety can be so blind, or even against the notion of variety. Healing and Tanking are unaccompanied by anything else. SnS rules, is, stands alone as the only means of effective tanking (yes, I can do everything I can do to empower myself, but the little niche that is lacking an SnS still makes me less than those who do use one). Restoration Staff rules, is, stands alone as the only means of effective healing (again, someone could do everything they can do to shoot out more HPS, but the little niche that is lacking a Restoration Staff still makes them that much less of a healer).

There is no difference, it's simply hindering. I apologize to reference WoW so much, but since I'm sure many played it, it's a better use for a metaphor: When it comes to healing, you've got multiple routes to take. Granted, there are specified classes and specs, but you've got quite a bit of variety to go for. Even in "vanilla" you still had a fair amount of options, all of them right off the bat. The overall point I'm trying to make is variety and real choice, not simply (I'm gonna do things differently).

"You are unhappy that a sword and SHIELD skill is able to tank better than blade weapons, and magic staves? Are you also unhappy that heavy armor provides more damage mitigation over light armor?"

You're missing the point entirely by saying this. That isn't pertaining at all to what I'm addressing.

WarirorHax

Does anyone know if Veteran level mobs crit the player? Please help!

Kodiak

@Eormenric actually you're the one who doesn't get it.

The "choice" in ESO is that there's really no one guided build per class. There is no, "You're a Nightblade, you must be a melee medium armor DPS." The choice in this scenario is that you could choose to be a healer and use a Restoration Staff or you could choose to be a tank and use 1HS. You could tank in light armor (I do personally) or you could tank in heavy. These are choices you choose how to build your character.

Quite honestly you're just trying to be different for the sake of being different and there's no point to it. I'd rather they focus time and effort on real issues than imaginary ones conjured up by someone who wants to wear their pants on their head and them vomits out overly long posts about how wearing pants on their head looks stupid and you'd wish the designer of pants would make them more functional as head wear.

PEBKAC.

Eormenric

Kodiak wrote: »

@Eormenric actually you're the one who doesn't get it.

The "choice" in ESO is that there's really no one guided build per class. There is no, "You're a Nightblade, you must be a melee medium armor DPS." The choice in this scenario is that you could choose to be a healer and use a Restoration Staff or you could choose to be a tank and use 1HS. You could tank in light armor (I do personally) or you could tank in heavy. These are choices you choose how to build your character.

Quite honestly you're just trying to be different for the sake of being different and there's no point to it. I'd rather they focus time and effort on real issues than imaginary ones conjured up by someone who wants to wear their pants on their head and them vomits out overly long posts about how wearing pants on their head looks stupid and you'd wish the designer of pants would make them more functional as head wear.

PEBKAC.

You say the "choice" in ESO is to build your character however you like. The logical inference--considering your following input of how you tank in light armor--is that you agree with this "choice" and welcome it. You say I'm being different for the sake of being different and there's no point to it. Using your definition, is my "choice" not up to your standards? Is it rather not to your liking and therefore not deemed this "choice" you so explained? I sense a double-standard based on your inability to not see what I'm addressing.

Of course we have the freedom to pick and play how we want. Even in WoW, in its current state (insofar as I know), you can still wear whatever piece of armor you're able to (Warrior in Cloth, for instance) and play the game that way. But will you be penalized? Obviously. You will not gain certain benefits or bonuses that greatly increase your damage, survival, or usefulness. Your only, rational choice is to pick the armor that gives you the most, yes? ESO demands this as well, but on a not-so-obvious-to-the-player basis.

Besides, my discussion is not based on freedom of build. It's based on effectiveness of your choice. Because if your choice is utterly ineffective, then it's more of a hindrance than a choice. As I said before, you don't choose how to play, in a game like this, as much as you can choose how to fail. Just like in WoW, there are things you'll need/want to do in order to gain a level of damage, healing, survivability. It's one thing to know these right off the bat and say "okay, this is how the game works, I'll find what I like and go from there". It's another to spend hours and hours playing a game, believing that what you're shooting for can be effective, only to have Veteran (where ESO claims the real game opens up; 1-50 was easy practice) slams you in the face with the truth: Your build isn't working and if it isn't working now, it won't work later.

I am saying, as plainly as I can put it: SnS holds the reigns for effective tanking. Restoration Staff is the only means for effective healing. There are no 'real' substitutes, only differences and all of them make you worse for that role. This is what I'm addressing. There's a plethora of dps options that all do exactly that: Damage. But there is one way to tank (we can even bring in armors at this point) and practically one way to heal (I've seen all armors and point-allocations work, but a Restoration Staff was a given).

MysticAura

You had the choice of what to train. You chose to dual, you could have easily chosen sword and shield if you'd wanted to tank. You chose not to pick the defensive skill line.

Someone made a good point when they compared it to a two handed sword that doesn't heal. You can't fire arrows from a staff, you can't heal with a sword..the best blocking tool (for good reason) is a shield. It IS all about your choice, but you can't have one tool do everything.

One good point I have noticed in the thread and through my own experience. Snares and such should work on bosses unless you are below level. At least they should have a chance of working. I know boss battles are meant to be a challenge, but it always feels like... 'ok you've learned how to fight, now we'll give you a tougher mob, but tie your hands behind your back first for kicks.

Ravage

As one of those token WoW guys that was apart of the 'evil system' from beta up through Cata, let me just say to you what I would always say to people just coming to terms with the realities of an MMO.

We all understand, you wanted to be different, in either playstyle or strategy, and to a degree, I can respect that. However, MMO's are like Old Testament gods, harsh and unforgiving. You are graced with having the knowledge of what to do to maximize your potential gameplay. It is then your choice to either use that knowledge, or continue failing.

I always had a dream of tanking on my Rogue main... it took 5 years to finally realize that, at the end of an expac. My poor pally was referred to as a Ret-tard until the day Wrath hit, then he was God in Plate. My resto-druid was a joke, that was carried through content for no other reason than his battle-rez... but then the day finally came.... and he was a Gladiator.

The point here being, we can all have lofty goals for our characters builds, but to *** and moan about it, when we are all aware that at present, our/your build sucks, is frickken pointless.

I spent the entirety of beta pursuing the goal of playing a ret style templar... and we all know how badly that failed. Now I'm a NB vampire who is nearly unkillable. If you want to be taken seriously, use a damned Sword n Board. When the day comes that they change the skill lines, nobody will stop you from going back to DW or 2Hder. Until then, you are only handicapping yourself, and hurting the group.

Which, in my hardcore - elitistist - *** - oldschool terminology, makes you a failure.

Tetujin

If they can make it work, why not? More variety has to be good, more fun where it can be done. I think it would be cool to be able to for example tank with a destruction staff.

Someone mentioned extra skill lines that could support this, seems plausible, have something with a mode that has the effect when slotted, crude but theoretically works?

Obviously, 'play how you want' is a byline with limits, but for this I don't see the harm. The more variety, the more ability to mix weapons, styles and roles the better. Makes it more exciting for everyone.

crimsonBZD

I think this makes perfect sense.

Sword and Board = Tanking, Damage Mitigation and Enemy Control

2 Hand = PvE DPS and weapon-based cc (in damage)

Dual Wield = I don't know, haven't used it yet, but I know it doesn't something specific. I'm guessing sheer DPS strength.

et cetera et cetera with bows/destro/resto