For Someone who Loves Character Progression, I Feel ... Left Out in the Cold

GatheredMyst · January 2020

... Pun (not) intended?

While the storylines have thus far been pretty good, I feel like ZOS's commitment to horizontal progression has come at the expense of developing our characters from a PVE Vantage Point.

I'll use my Nightblade as an example. I've had him since Morrowind, so a good amount of time.

...He has all the skills that I really want him to have.
...He has a gearset that i'm very happy with.

There haven't been any new PVE Skill Lines that he can really take advantage of, or any new ways to develop himself within his class or weapons.

If you think about it, since the game has come out, aside from tweaks to existing skill lines, if you've stayed committed to a single character and playstyle, your class hasn't really been able to "progress" all that much within itself, nor has it really "changed" aside from balance adjustments. There hasn't really been anything "new" from a PVE Skill Vantage Point to chew on.

Sure, there's been interesting alterior skills: Like Thievery and Murder, and the Psijics was an interesting addition, but when I think of an MMO Expansion, I think of new and exciting ways to play my character. I think of new abilities to earn and play with. I think of character advancement. And really.. there hasn't been a ton of that.

Coming on four expansions later, i'd think that we would have something much more substantial from that vantage point. But we don't... and I don't understand why this has not been something that ZOS has felt the need to expand on in their game.

Am I alone here?

kind_hero · January 2020

I feel the same (I too have a nightblade)

Adding two skill lines for antiques is a missed opportunity to add or integrate more abilities for characters.
One example is the grappling hook. They could have made this into a skill line along with some other fun mechanics like a teleporting runes, I don't know.

I would like to see more morphs or gear that changes abilities (in the line of the mythic stuff). Also I would like to make cosmetic changes to some of the class abilities, reskin pets, and so on.

Casterial · January 2020

They also should let us increase quest difficulty.........it feels easy.

Faulgor · January 2020

Can't agree enough. #1 reason why I don't play actively anymore, there's just nothing more to do. I can log on with 4 year old characters and they are "up to date", safe for the constant item and skill rebalancing that happened during that time. Only thing I have done for years is gather motifs to dress up my stagnating characters, like a morbid puppet show.

I just don't comprehend why this isn't important to ZOS. It's like they don't want me to play their game.

I suppose the Antiquity system is kind of progression-based, but it is totally unrelated to combat and thus everything else we do with our characters, so I'm very uncertain if it will fill that role.

My only hope is that they will address this when they revamp the CP system, but we haven't heard a peep about that in a year.

Skwor · January 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

Can't agree enough. #1 reason why I don't play actively anymore, there's just nothing more to do. I can log on with 4 year old characters and they are "up to date", safe for the constant item and skill rebalancing that happened during that time. Only thing I have done for years is gather motifs to dress up my stagnating characters, like a morbid puppet show.

I just don't comprehend why this isn't important to ZOS. It's like they don't want me to play their game.

I suppose the Antiquity system is kind of progression-based, but it is totally unrelated to combat and thus everything else we do with our characters, so I'm very uncertain if it will fill that role.

My only hope is that they will address this when they revamp the CP system, but we haven't heard a peep about that in a year.

There have been many posts about the need to start up vert progression again and TBH they have gone unanswered.

I and others have been saying these types of threads will start popping up more and here we are.

I just wish they would gives us an idea what's up. Honestly I will be furious if they have decided to stop any vertical progression going forward. I have put faith in them that the game will grow and if they are hiding the fact they intend to stop upward growth I will feel like they have deceived me in continuing to support this product.

Just tell us what is the intent is all I ask.

MrGhosty · January 2020

GatheredMyst wrote: »

... Pun (not) intended?

While the storylines have thus far been pretty good, I feel like ZOS's commitment to horizontal progression has come at the expense of developing our characters from a PVE Vantage Point.

I'll use my Nightblade as an example. I've had him since Morrowind, so a good amount of time.

...He has all the skills that I really want him to have.
...He has a gearset that i'm very happy with.

There haven't been any new PVE Skill Lines that he can really take advantage of, or any new ways to develop himself within his class or weapons.

If you think about it, since the game has come out, aside from tweaks to existing skill lines, if you've stayed committed to a single character and playstyle, your class hasn't really been able to "progress" all that much within itself, nor has it really "changed" aside from balance adjustments. There hasn't really been anything "new" from a PVE Skill Vantage Point to chew on.

Sure, there's been interesting alterior skills: Like Thievery and Murder, and the Psijics was an interesting addition, but when I think of an MMO Expansion, I think of new and exciting ways to play my character. I think of new abilities to earn and play with. I think of character advancement. And really.. there hasn't been a ton of that.

Coming on four expansions later, i'd think that we would have something much more substantial from that vantage point. But we don't... and I don't understand why this has not been something that ZOS has felt the need to expand on in their game.

Am I alone here?

I think they've erred on the side of ensuring that new players won't be buried under a mountain of "stuff I have to do before I can even hope to actually play the game" Which is how I've always viewed opting for a horizontal progression vs vertical system. There is a lot of fun in trying out new build sets/ideas and I am of the firm opinion that this game becomes a lot more fun when you play multiple characters. You could even recreate the same character and just give them different classes to try out some of the other ways to play. Additionally it can be a lot of fun taking characters through all the stories in a different order to the way they were originally done, a sort of "choose your own adventure" approach.

I think it would be a bad idea to encourage zos to attempt more vertical progression because their current efforts at balance are starting to largely homogenize the classes. The new antiquities system sounds like it has some progress, but we won't know for sure until we can get our hands on it.

If you're looking for ways to develop your character, there are usually multiple builds that make use of different weapon/gear combos so perhaps your solution would be to try those out. The bis meta stuff will always remain, but there is so much out there that is not only viable, but fun to try. If you don't have the skill points to spec into other builds that also gives you more progression for your character, as well as leveling all these other skill lines.

rotaugen454 · January 2020

I have 18 characters. 16 are max CP with at least mid grade gear and all skills I use on that class/role and 2 are mules. The game is no longer about trying to achieve godhood but more about who I meet and interact with when running around. That’s ok, as I am thousands of hours in since Beta. I don’t know how they could keep me progressing without making me able to do 12 person trials solo or take on an entire keep by myself in PvP.

theyancey · January 2020

Yes, it is troubling. If I wanted to play a shooter-adventure game I would have. I signed on for an RPG with character development. Not much of that lately.

Seraphayel · January 2020

Catering to new players or bringing in brand new players after 5, 6 years shouldn’t be the main goal. It should be one of the reasons but never the main one. The main goal of ZOS should be to keep veterans entertained and hooked. That’s where Chapters really fall flat because of how they are approached. God damn give us one veteran zone or something like that, casuals and newbies have dozens of zones already. Chapters don’t have to cater to them.

VaranisArano · January 2020

Vertical Progression died with One Tamriel, replaced with horizontal progression.

TheShadowScout · January 2020

GatheredMyst wrote: »

Am I alone here?

Wanna take a guess?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492733/class-specialization-idea/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442350/character-background-passives
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500530/worship-in-tamriel-ideas

Yeah, I also would -love- to see more stuff I can dig my teeth into with my old and beloved characters, new skills I can learn, or whatever... stuff to -develop- my characters further! Especially stuff that comes with "either-or" choices! Since nothing is more boring then everyone getting the same skills (though at least I can -choose- not to do TG or DB on my goody-two-greaves characters, or do psijic only on my "mage" characters...)

Thus -any- ideas that allow to develop existing characters further would have my full approval, way over any notion to add yet another class which sadly some people seem fixated on, but I only think about with shuddering...

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2020

No OP, you are not alone.

Well... my main is um... Argonian Nightblade Werewolf... Need I say more ?

So yeah, I agree with you. The entire last year I simply felt like my progression was simply taken away...
I was forced to change how I play this game ("play as you want" ? Yeah suurrreeee

) For example I no longer use WW in pretty much any content. In fact I do not do as much content as I used to. I stopped crafting gear, grinding gear improving build etc. What is the point if once I made some improvements, I will be levelled down by nerfs ?

Right now, I am, well, from the lack of better term stagnating ?

Edit:
Note for devs: If you make too many drastic changes people will stop changing / improving / trying out new things and they will wait for stabilization. In other mmos the changes done here for half a year is done in like 3-5 years lol.

thadjarvis · January 2020

There are pro's and con's to it. If you play one character, one role most the time for years that will happen in the system. Variety of a singular character will wane over time. However, many have a hard time keeping up with more than 2 or 3 toons. It seemed one of 2019's main complaints was whip-sawing builds too fast for many.

I liked the 2019 changes as I played enough to adjust.

Regardless, a new skill line was expected with the typically class-line-class history. A once a year change isn't a whip-saw and would have been welcomed by most. Re-vamping vamp seems like an odd choice. Even another magika weapon line would have been more broad.

x48rph · January 2020

kind_hero wrote: »

I feel the same (I too have a nightblade)

Adding two skill lines for antiques is a missed opportunity to add or integrate more abilities for characters.
One example is the grappling hook. They could have made this into a skill line along with some other fun mechanics like a teleporting runes, I don't know.

I would like to see more morphs or gear that changes abilities (in the line of the mythic stuff). Also I would like to make cosmetic changes to some of the class abilities, reskin pets, and so on.

When they gave us the alternate skin for the warden bear when it came out I was excited for awhile cause I thought they'd do more like that, pet 'skins' but sadly it seems to be once and done

Runefang · January 2020

GatheredMyst wrote: »

... Pun (not) intended?

While the storylines have thus far been pretty good, I feel like ZOS's commitment to horizontal progression has come at the expense of developing our characters from a PVE Vantage Point.

I'll use my Nightblade as an example. I've had him since Morrowind, so a good amount of time.

...He has all the skills that I really want him to have.
...He has a gearset that i'm very happy with.

There haven't been any new PVE Skill Lines that he can really take advantage of, or any new ways to develop himself within his class or weapons.

If you think about it, since the game has come out, aside from tweaks to existing skill lines, if you've stayed committed to a single character and playstyle, your class hasn't really been able to "progress" all that much within itself, nor has it really "changed" aside from balance adjustments. There hasn't really been anything "new" from a PVE Skill Vantage Point to chew on.

Sure, there's been interesting alterior skills: Like Thievery and Murder, and the Psijics was an interesting addition, but when I think of an MMO Expansion, I think of new and exciting ways to play my character. I think of new abilities to earn and play with. I think of character advancement. And really.. there hasn't been a ton of that.

Coming on four expansions later, i'd think that we would have something much more substantial from that vantage point. But we don't... and I don't understand why this has not been something that ZOS has felt the need to expand on in their game.

Am I alone here?

You're definitely not alone.

For myself I feel like the problem is that character development is primarily a function of ZOS balance efforts and not related to anything I've done. We go backwards and forwards in power only because ZOS are constantly changing skills around.

Maxx7410 · January 2020

Feel the same also is too easy. like oooo that boss is soooo powerful waaaa weeee quest and you estroy him and his few minions in 2 seconds haha

Akrasjel · January 2020

I have to agree at least partially

GatheredMyst · January 2020

I've seen a lot of good comments here. Thanks to everyone responding!

To the concern about it adding more for a new player to have to catch up with:

I think that there is one way that this can happen, but one way that it wouldn't. If you just add more skill lines to existing classes or weapons, you're not necessarily making it more challenging for new players to catch up to existing ones. You're just providing a broader swathe of abilities to choose from, and new ways to play.

However, even if they did add more morphs and what not... the game is coming up on six years old. I think that *eventually* it's expected from all players that more verticality will be introduced into the equation. I don't think new folks will have much to complain about in that sense.

To the concern about balance:

If that's the roadblock? Then IMO (and this is probably a conversation for another thread) ... their great "Keeping the same experience" experiment has failed, and they need to look at seperating PVP and PVE's balancing. If we're at the point where one is holding back the other, and visa versa, then something's pretty dang wrong. Having to keep the Cyrodiil Experience balanced should not impact players from getting new things to play with.

New Ways to play your character is a lifeblood of any MMO. It's what keeps people excited in characters they have spent a lot of time with.

Just my 2 Gold

Lady_Linux · January 2020

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.

you can quote someone on that

If you are bored with your character, trying playing with different skills. You boxed yourself in with "the right way to play"

Make an orc magicka night blade. Make a stamnina high elf dragon night. make a nord magicka dd necro. Do something that makes no sense and figure out how to make it work. If you really can play any way you want then go do that.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO · January 2020

I agree with you OP. The bottom line is, we spend probably 75% of our time battling foes of one sort or another, so for ZOS to not give us anything substantial to spice up that whole aspect of the game is just confusing to me. I find it extra annoying that the team DOES, for example, spend time & effort to create new abilities and so forth, but only for NPCs get them, such as the martial artists in S Elsewyr. ZOS, NPCs arent buying your DLC - share some of the toys with the players!

lucky_Sage · January 2020

What this game needs for progression is a melee magic weapon then a new skill line or morph or abilities to the classes added I think eso has enough classes just they need to evolve now.
I main a Magdk and my gear hasn’t changed since destro counts a 2 pieces and I just switch to a another crafted set haven’t had to do a hard being since I got bsw. Ever since it took me over 100 runs of CoA to get bsw staff I refuse to do a grind like that again I stopped leveling psijic ounce I got RaT. Unless performance getting a lot better there is nothing yet to bring me back to this game since I took a break in November. But still hoping this game will bring me back

Kadoin · January 2020

I just want more "trick" functionality in PvP combat, and maybe PvE bosses that do it too

Faulgor · January 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vertical Progression died with One Tamriel, replaced with horizontal progression.

I don't get the impression that there's any kind of progression, whether vertical, horizontal or diagonal.

Horizontal progression would mean that you widen the capabilities of your character instead of improving the ones you have. What capabilities have our characters gained in the last years? What can my Sorcerer or Templar do that they couldn't a year ago?

Lady_Linux · January 2020

lucky_Sage wrote: »

What this game needs for progression is a melee magic weapon then a new skill line or morph or abilities to the classes added I think eso has enough classes just they need to evolve now.
I main a Magdk and my gear hasn’t changed since destro counts a 2 pieces and I just switch to a another crafted set haven’t had to do a hard being since I got bsw. Ever since it took me over 100 runs of CoA to get bsw staff I refuse to do a grind like that again I stopped leveling psijic ounce I got RaT. Unless performance getting a lot better there is nothing yet to bring me back to this game since I took a break in November. But still hoping this game will bring me back

you did it wrong. get a friend... go with stealth night blades or invisibility potions

enter vet coa1 pilfer the chests you find and avoid all fights... exit. reset to normal. rest to vet. enter again. wash rinse repeat. couple hours a day for a couple of days both you and your friend will have 2 bsw staffs each.

Lady_Linux · January 2020

GatheredMyst wrote: »

I've seen a lot of good comments here. Thanks to everyone responding!

To the concern about it adding more for a new player to have to catch up with:

I think that there is one way that this can happen, but one way that it wouldn't. If you just add more skill lines to existing classes or weapons, you're not necessarily making it more challenging for new players to catch up to existing ones. You're just providing a broader swathe of abilities to choose from, and new ways to play.

However, even if they did add more morphs and what not... the game is coming up on six years old. I think that *eventually* it's expected from all players that more verticality will be introduced into the equation. I don't think new folks will have much to complain about in that sense.

To the concern about balance:

If that's the roadblock? Then IMO (and this is probably a conversation for another thread) ... their great "Keeping the same experience" experiment has failed, and they need to look at seperating PVP and PVE's balancing. If we're at the point where one is holding back the other, and visa versa, then something's pretty dang wrong. Having to keep the Cyrodiil Experience balanced should not impact players from getting new things to play with.

New Ways to play your character is a lifeblood of any MMO. It's what keeps people excited in characters they have spent a lot of time with.

Just my 2 Gold

pve sets for pve zones. pvp sets for pvp zones. change zones and you lose access to the armor you were wearing and need to apply other gear. problem solved.

jcm2606 · January 2020

Lady_Linux wrote: »

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.

you can quote someone on that

If you are bored with your character, trying playing with different skills. You boxed yourself in with "the right way to play"

Make an orc magicka night blade. Make a stamnina high elf dragon night. make a nord magicka dd necro. Do something that makes no sense and figure out how to make it work. If you really can play any way you want then go do that.

And do what with these new skills, exactly? Grind away at the brain dead easy overland, where the new skills will still end up demolishing anything and everything that comes into range? Repeat the same dungeons and trials you've already done to death? Waste time in PvP modes that have been neglected for years and are downright unplayable in some situations?

It's not just an issue with progression, it's an issue with content. In addition to there being a lack of new and long-term character building dimensions, there's a lack of real meat that our newly evolved characters can bite into. Overland is *** easy, end game PvE is living patch-to-patch, and PvP is an unplayable mess.

Something new has to happen in terms of content, in addition to progression. Something with a lot of content, that players can truly sink time into, and still want more.

Faulgor · January 2020

jcm2606 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.

you can quote someone on that

If you are bored with your character, trying playing with different skills. You boxed yourself in with "the right way to play"

Make an orc magicka night blade. Make a stamnina high elf dragon night. make a nord magicka dd necro. Do something that makes no sense and figure out how to make it work. If you really can play any way you want then go do that.

And do what with these new skills, exactly? Grind away at the brain dead easy overland, where the new skills will still end up demolishing anything and everything that comes into range? Repeat the same dungeons and trials you've already done to death? Waste time in PvP modes that have been neglected for years and are downright unplayable in some situations?

It's not just an issue with progression, it's an issue with content. In addition to there being a lack of new and long-term character building dimensions, there's a lack of real meat that our newly evolved characters can bite into. Overland is *** easy, end game PvE is living patch-to-patch, and PvP is an unplayable mess.

Something new has to happen in terms of content, in addition to progression. Something with a lot of content, that players can truly sink time into, and still want more.

I've said this elsewhere recently, but it feels like ZOS only adds two types of content:
- Group PvE for 4 or 12 players
- Casual questing

If you want to do group PvE outside that player range or something on your own that is more challenging than harvesting wormroot, you're out of luck. So what do they add? A new casual solo player system. I really don't get it.

16 fully equipped max level characters, and they just sit in my house and rot.

My dream would be higher difficulty settings tied into Daedric/Divine reputation systems that work somewhat like the Tel Var system, i.e. a notable death penalty.
I imagine something like using a memento to apply a debuff, get a group together to tackle now challenging public dungeons to slay enemy hordes in Malacath's name, gaining reputation for the staple rewards of titles, motifs, skins, costumes, furnishings, passive skills, mythic gear, etc.
Self-directed, open-ended, challenging content in an already built vast open world. All the pieces are already there, they'd just need the willingness to do it.

jcm2606 · January 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.

you can quote someone on that

If you are bored with your character, trying playing with different skills. You boxed yourself in with "the right way to play"

Make an orc magicka night blade. Make a stamnina high elf dragon night. make a nord magicka dd necro. Do something that makes no sense and figure out how to make it work. If you really can play any way you want then go do that.

And do what with these new skills, exactly? Grind away at the brain dead easy overland, where the new skills will still end up demolishing anything and everything that comes into range? Repeat the same dungeons and trials you've already done to death? Waste time in PvP modes that have been neglected for years and are downright unplayable in some situations?

It's not just an issue with progression, it's an issue with content. In addition to there being a lack of new and long-term character building dimensions, there's a lack of real meat that our newly evolved characters can bite into. Overland is *** easy, end game PvE is living patch-to-patch, and PvP is an unplayable mess.

Something new has to happen in terms of content, in addition to progression. Something with a lot of content, that players can truly sink time into, and still want more.

I've said this elsewhere recently, but it feels like ZOS only adds two types of content:
- Group PvE for 4 or 12 players
- Casual questing

If you want to do group PvE outside that player range or something on your own that is more challenging than harvesting wormroot, you're out of luck. So what do they add? A new casual solo player system. I really don't get it.

16 fully equipped max level characters, and they just sit in my house and rot.

My dream would be higher difficulty settings tied into Daedric/Divine reputation systems that work somewhat like the Tel Var system, i.e. a notable death penalty.
I imagine something like using a memento to apply a debuff, get a group together to tackle now challenging public dungeons to slay enemy hordes in Malacath's name, gaining reputation for the staple rewards of titles, motifs, skins, costumes, furnishings, passive skills, mythic gear, etc.
Self-directed, open-ended, challenging content in an already built vast open world. All the pieces are already there, they'd just need the willingness to do it.

Honestly, this is what I wish they'd do:

Copy Battle Spirit, and have it only apply to players in overland zones or sub-zones (public dungeons, delves, quest instances, etc). Rework it so that it adjusts damage done, damage taken, healing received, maybe even magicka/stamina recovery. Add a difficulty option either in your settings menu or on your character sheet, and have this new version of Battle Spirit adjust all the listed stats based on your chosen difficulty. This way, newer players can turn the difficulty down a little bit if they're finding the game too hard, while vets can turn it up to make it a bit more unforgiving.

In addition to this new version of Battle Spirit, rework mob AI and mechanics to make them a bit smarter, and punish players for not following mechanics. If you let yourself be stunned and fail to break the stun in a timely manner, nearby mobs will notice and will start really hammering into you, while letting their own guard down. Surviving might be challenging for a newer player or a vet with the difficulty turned up, but if they can survive, they can turn the tables back on their opponent, since their opponent is more vulnerable.

Further, rebalance mob stats globally, introducing tougher variants of certain mobs. You might have a wolf pup that is hostile yet weak, that is protected by a stronger regular wolf, that is part of a pack led by an even stroner alpha wolf. You might even have a unique wolf that is even stronger still, that may act as a roaming area boss, of a sorts. As you progress further into "higher level" zones, these tougher variants of mobs become more common, giving an actual sense of progression to overland.

IMO, these three things together can offer a scalable yet challenging approach to revitalising overland, and will absolutely bring me back into questing. Despite the fact that I don't quest in ESO, I do enjoy it, and do quest in other games.

The reason why I don't in ESO is because overland caters entirely to the casuals of the casuals, making it brain dead easy, and hence boring, for anyone playing a semi-competent build who knows what they're doing.

I see all this hype surrounding Greymoor, and while it does look interesting from a questing perspective, I can't help but feel let down as I know it just won't be enjoyable for me, because of it being so god damn easy.

As for what new end game PvE content they could add, I honestly feel like a version of the IC Sewers, but specifically for PvE, could be good. Scale it up a bit, add even more content to it, add even more reasons to run it, and that'd scratch my PvE itch.

barney2525 · January 2020

GatheredMyst wrote: »

... Pun (not) intended?

While the storylines have thus far been pretty good, I feel like ZOS's commitment to horizontal progression has come at the expense of developing our characters from a PVE Vantage Point.

I'll use my Nightblade as an example. I've had him since Morrowind, so a good amount of time.

...He has all the skills that I really want him to have.
...He has a gearset that i'm very happy with.

There haven't been any new PVE Skill Lines that he can really take advantage of, or any new ways to develop himself within his class or weapons.

If you think about it, since the game has come out, aside from tweaks to existing skill lines, if you've stayed committed to a single character and playstyle, your class hasn't really been able to "progress" all that much within itself, nor has it really "changed" aside from balance adjustments. There hasn't really been anything "new" from a PVE Skill Vantage Point to chew on.

Sure, there's been interesting alterior skills: Like Thievery and Murder, and the Psijics was an interesting addition, but when I think of an MMO Expansion, I think of new and exciting ways to play my character. I think of new abilities to earn and play with. I think of character advancement. And really.. there hasn't been a ton of that.

Coming on four expansions later, i'd think that we would have something much more substantial from that vantage point. But we don't... and I don't understand why this has not been something that ZOS has felt the need to expand on in their game.

Am I alone here?

I guess it all depends on ' Why ' you are making a character.

If the goal is to have all the abilities that you can feasibly put on one character sheet, then there will be a limit.

If the goal is the play everything and every quest in the game, then you will have much more to do.

If the goal is to get every Achievement in the game game you will have even MORE to do. It does not seem by your post that you consider Achievements as part of character advancement.

You didn't mention Undaunted, or Assault and Alliance, or Werewolf or Vampire skills, so they are still available to max out

Bottom line is, new content is going to give you new places to go and new things to do. It may or may not have new abilities. But there should be plenty for any character to do.

IMHO

Minyassa · January 2020

I kind of feel that way but I also kind of feel like I would like to have a character "finished". So far my experience has been that I work hard on getting a character to where I can comfortably do endgame content only to be nerfed into the ground and have to start over on the exact same goals. So it doesn't feel like progression, it feels like Sisyphus and his boulder and it's disheartening. That's why I have 18 toons I just work randomly on depending on who seems like they have goal I can reach and get some small measure of satisfaction, and don't really stick with any of them. Even my main has gone through phases of utter uselesness due to nerfs, and no longer being the right toon for what I need to do. It's the opposite of progression.

Faulgor · January 2020

jcm2606 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.

you can quote someone on that

If you are bored with your character, trying playing with different skills. You boxed yourself in with "the right way to play"

Make an orc magicka night blade. Make a stamnina high elf dragon night. make a nord magicka dd necro. Do something that makes no sense and figure out how to make it work. If you really can play any way you want then go do that.

And do what with these new skills, exactly? Grind away at the brain dead easy overland, where the new skills will still end up demolishing anything and everything that comes into range? Repeat the same dungeons and trials you've already done to death? Waste time in PvP modes that have been neglected for years and are downright unplayable in some situations?

It's not just an issue with progression, it's an issue with content. In addition to there being a lack of new and long-term character building dimensions, there's a lack of real meat that our newly evolved characters can bite into. Overland is *** easy, end game PvE is living patch-to-patch, and PvP is an unplayable mess.

Something new has to happen in terms of content, in addition to progression. Something with a lot of content, that players can truly sink time into, and still want more.

I've said this elsewhere recently, but it feels like ZOS only adds two types of content:
- Group PvE for 4 or 12 players
- Casual questing

If you want to do group PvE outside that player range or something on your own that is more challenging than harvesting wormroot, you're out of luck. So what do they add? A new casual solo player system. I really don't get it.

16 fully equipped max level characters, and they just sit in my house and rot.

My dream would be higher difficulty settings tied into Daedric/Divine reputation systems that work somewhat like the Tel Var system, i.e. a notable death penalty.
I imagine something like using a memento to apply a debuff, get a group together to tackle now challenging public dungeons to slay enemy hordes in Malacath's name, gaining reputation for the staple rewards of titles, motifs, skins, costumes, furnishings, passive skills, mythic gear, etc.
Self-directed, open-ended, challenging content in an already built vast open world. All the pieces are already there, they'd just need the willingness to do it.

Honestly, this is what I wish they'd do:

Copy Battle Spirit, and have it only apply to players in overland zones or sub-zones (public dungeons, delves, quest instances, etc). Rework it so that it adjusts damage done, damage taken, healing received, maybe even magicka/stamina recovery. Add a difficulty option either in your settings menu or on your character sheet, and have this new version of Battle Spirit adjust all the listed stats based on your chosen difficulty. This way, newer players can turn the difficulty down a little bit if they're finding the game too hard, while vets can turn it up to make it a bit more unforgiving.

In addition to this new version of Battle Spirit, rework mob AI and mechanics to make them a bit smarter, and punish players for not following mechanics. If you let yourself be stunned and fail to break the stun in a timely manner, nearby mobs will notice and will start really hammering into you, while letting their own guard down. Surviving might be challenging for a newer player or a vet with the difficulty turned up, but if they can survive, they can turn the tables back on their opponent, since their opponent is more vulnerable.

Further, rebalance mob stats globally, introducing tougher variants of certain mobs. You might have a wolf pup that is hostile yet weak, that is protected by a stronger regular wolf, that is part of a pack led by an even stroner alpha wolf. You might even have a unique wolf that is even stronger still, that may act as a roaming area boss, of a sorts. As you progress further into "higher level" zones, these tougher variants of mobs become more common, giving an actual sense of progression to overland.

IMO, these three things together can offer a scalable yet challenging approach to revitalising overland, and will absolutely bring me back into questing. Despite the fact that I don't quest in ESO, I do enjoy it, and do quest in other games.

The reason why I don't in ESO is because overland caters entirely to the casuals of the casuals, making it brain dead easy, and hence boring, for anyone playing a semi-competent build who knows what they're doing.

I see all this hype surrounding Greymoor, and while it does look interesting from a questing perspective, I can't help but feel let down as I know it just won't be enjoyable for me, because of it being so god damn easy.

As for what new end game PvE content they could add, I honestly feel like a version of the IC Sewers, but specifically for PvE, could be good. Scale it up a bit, add even more content to it, add even more reasons to run it, and that'd scratch my PvE itch.

Yeah as I said, the technical pieces like the Battle Spirit debuff are already there, they'd just have to adjust them for a challenging PvE experience. In my mind, the difficulty would scale up the more of the new Tel Var (reputation currency) you carry, but that might be a bit too gamey for some, and I'd be happy with your solution as well.

Improved AI would be cool, but right now mobs are so easy that you don't ever get into a situation where you have to pay attention to mechanics anyway. I think a harder difficulty as you proposed would already make players pay attention to the AI that is already in place, and we could judge necessary adjustments afterwards.

Mob distribution for higher level areas would also be really neat, although I don't think this should be done along zone borders, but within zones. So every zone should have areas that are more difficult, such as the immediate areas around world bosses, public dungeons, and to a lesser degree delves. Questing areas could be the easiest comparatively.

IC sewers at release was the best PvE experience I've ever had in this game. Everyone was still VR14 while the mobs there were VR16. It was hard, but unlike the old vet zones also rewarding through Tel Var and the new VR16 crafting materials. I actually had to adjust my built to best take out Daedra, it was so good.

In my mind, the currently criminally underutilized public dungeons could fill that role, once we have higher difficulty modes.