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Animation cancelling - approved by loading screen tip
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MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭As for animation cancelling, I call it clipping. It easier to say and rolls of the tongue well. Jump cancelling, clipping and weaving are all things I have used and seen remove in other mmos that made the game harder and made many long time vets of the game quit.
I'm still getting into this game and learning each day I play. I have used all of what I have listed above when I play open world content on my character as a damage dealer. I have yet to test my damage per second as I honestly don't care because I am a healer for group content and I am not going to waste my resources to setup my character as a DD. If I do any changes, which I am considering, it is to play as a tank.0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »The_Old_Goat wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Hello.
Firstly, I would like to appologize for the photo of my screen. I know it's a nabish way to capture screenshots, but for some strange reason I can't capture screenshots during loading screens when playing in fullscreen mode (which I always do for optimal performance). Pressing Prtsc during loading screens does nothing and pressing Ctrl+Prtsc and then pasting into graphic editor will result in pasting a fully-black picture. When within a game, screenshots work just fine.
Now, the screenshot of a loading screen tip that tells you about existence of light attack weaving and actively promotes you to do so.
Guess, there is no counterargument to that, it's an indirect Zenimax statement and light attack weaving is here to stay, no matter if you like it or not.
Thats why 3/4 stopped playing and also lag and performance. I guess some people never learn when they get burned...
I can guarantee that nobody ever left this game because of animation canceling alone.
no but it doesnt make the games combat morw attractive either ... and honestly this game has enough issues because systems werent thought through when built...
The sole reason I play ESO and not other MMOs is the combat system.7 -
The_Old_Goat✭✭✭✭✭
✭So the anti-animation canceling crowd can continue making these posts(that is your right) to garner more support but I'd like to remind you that every time one is made and or a poll, the majority of people weighing in are in support of animation canceling remaining.4 -
roflcopter✭✭✭ZOS knows how to change the game to remove AC. They don't because it would make for clunky gameplay. Or, people would only use skills or attacks that have the shortest animations.
They make adjustments to the animation timings to support gameplay using Animation Canceling.
AC is part of the game play. You may like it or not like it, but it is not evidence of something broken.
They have gone on record that it went from bug to feature so at some point it was "broken" but then made a feature of the game.
Just as one has to admit that AC is part of the game they should admit that it is "broken". It's ok to admit both.
As AC is now a feature, they should consider having a setting where people can toggle it on and off so players with certain medical or mental conditions could enhance their gameplay only on the fact that this is a leisure game and not a competitive gaming league.
What's not ok is to let ZoS continually let these threads go on that can easily be squashed / clarified for new users who may not have searched or now what to look for.Edited by roflcopter on January 16, 2020 6:59PMXbox One | NA | AD
GM - OK LOL
Warden Stuff
Ex - Trials Core 1 Runner - Left and couldn't be happier0 -
James-Wayne✭✭✭✭✭
✭However on high PING rate areas the game physically wont allow you to animation cancel because the game doesn't register your clicks fast enough so when that happens the system is flawed and should be changed.
Maybe they should move the server to Australia and we'll see how many players in the US have a problem with animation cancelling shall we
PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NA | @Aussie-Elders
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529 people have also earned this badge.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling
Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?
No, it's actually not. Light attack weaving only means the process of putting a light attack in between each skill, in the form of: Skill -> LA -> skill -> LA and so on.
Animation cancelling happens when you disrupt the animation of the light attack, so that the damage registers, while the next skill already fires. Animation cancelling is obviously based on the LA weaving, but they're not the same thing.
But putting LA between skills exists only because you can and do cancel the animation of a LA with an ability. Light attack weaving is just a form of animation cancelling. Block, Rolldodge or Barswap cancels are just another forms of animation cancelling, but the principle is the same - cancelling an animation.Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 16, 2020 6:51PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »1) not news. This is common knowlege
2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling
3) animation canceling is not a bug or an exploit that zos couldnt fix
The best response to this is;exeeter702 wrote: »You do not know what you are talking about.
•••Olupajmibanan wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling
Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?
This ^.
You didn't read the other post? Weaving is following a skill with a LA while skills are on gcd. Do that fast enough and you ani-cancel the LA, but weaving doesn't necessarily mean cancelling.
If you don't do it fast enough, you don't ani-cancel the LA. That would be no weaving at all, or better called a completely ineficient weaving. Because thanks to ani-canceling you can do 2 abilities and 2 light attacks within 2 seconds. If you do not cancel the animation of the LAs, you will do only 1 light attack and 1 ability within two seconds. That's what light attack weaving is - a form of animation cancelling that allows you to fire light attacks independantly on gcd of abilities.0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling
Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?
No, it's actually not. Light attack weaving only means the process of putting a light attack in between each skill, in the form of: Skill -> LA -> skill -> LA and so on.
Animation cancelling happens when you disrupt the animation of the light attack, so that the damage registers, while the next skill already fires. Animation cancelling is obviously based on the LA weaving, but they're not the same thing.
But putting LA between skills exists only because you can and do cancel the animation of a LA with an ability. Light attack weaving is just a form of animation cancelling. Block, Rolldodge or Barswap cancels are just another forms of animation cancelling, but the principle is the same - cancelling an animation.
That doesn't change the fact that you can very well LA weave without animation cancelling at the same time - that only happens if you do it fast enough / with the right timing. If you patiently wait out the animations of every light attack and skill, but still follow the general formula of putting LAs between each skill, you'll be weaving without animation cancelling at the same time.
Granted, that won't be as effective as the use of animation cancelling, but it will still give you more dps than if you don't weave at all. I started out learning weaving like this: By very deliberately and slowly putting those LAs in between skills, always waiting long enough to be sure that they register, and then going faster and faster when I was becoming comfortable with my rotation. I'm pretty sure (not 100%, though) that there is even an extra tooltip for weaving that is different from the animation cancelling one, and that basically only tells you that you will be more effective if you put LAs between skills - aka weaving.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!3 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Old_Goat wrote: »So the anti-animation canceling crowd can continue making these posts(that is your right) to garner more support but I'd like to remind you that every time one is made and or a poll, the majority of people weighing in are in support of animation canceling remaining.
Well, yes? Many of the so-called “anti-animation canceling crowd” would vote in support of animation canceling staying in the game too! Know why? Because folks routinely oversimplify and strawperson what we actually want to see with “you want to remove animation cancelling.” That isn’t what we are wanting. What we want is for abilities that are cancelled to actually cancel - for on-screen visuals to actually match what happens in the game.0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭The_Old_Goat wrote: »So the anti-animation canceling crowd can continue making these posts(that is your right) to garner more support but I'd like to remind you that every time one is made and or a poll, the majority of people weighing in are in support of animation canceling remaining.
Well, yes? Many of the so-called “anti-animation canceling crowd” would vote in support of animation canceling staying in the game too! Know why? Because folks routinely oversimplify and strawperson what we actually want to see with “you want to remove animation cancelling.” That isn’t what we are wanting. What we want is for abilities that are cancelled to actually cancel - for on-screen visuals to actually match what happens in the game.
Meaning you guys want the game to be slower. That's what happens if players can't cancel their animations without canceling the whole ability.3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
that is false.
the developers in that screen shot are allowing and talking about "light attack" animation canceling.
there are many forms of animation canceling but light attack animation canceling is the very LEAST of what is problematic with animation canceling.
Edited by Gilvoth on January 16, 2020 7:58PM0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Old_Goat wrote: »So the anti-animation canceling crowd can continue making these posts(that is your right) to garner more support but I'd like to remind you that every time one is made and or a poll, the majority of people weighing in are in support of animation canceling remaining.
Well, yes? Many of the so-called “anti-animation canceling crowd” would vote in support of animation canceling staying in the game too! Know why? Because folks routinely oversimplify and strawperson what we actually want to see with “you want to remove animation cancelling.” That isn’t what we are wanting. What we want is for abilities that are cancelled to actually cancel - for on-screen visuals to actually match what happens in the game.
this is exactly the truth what i quoted above.
in addition:
i have witnessed what looked like an insta-glitch on a persons character movements.
by that i mean it looked like the person had a twitch and jerk to their movements that was barely noticeable and it happened within less than 1/10 nth of a second and the person they were fighting simply died instantly.
THAT is where the problem is.
we were not lagging'
the ping was not high
when you fight a person in pvp, there should never be the moment where that person looks like they have no movement at all but just a very very slight glitch / twitch to them, and it seemed like they did something that you cant determine what happened and it happened SO FAST, as if within 1/100nth of a second, but on your end you receive multiple High Damage Abilities from them, that killed your character when you were at full health and it instantly killed your character.
thats not pvp, that's Glitching the code.
and i know for a fact that was never intended by the developers.
Edited by Gilvoth on January 16, 2020 8:06PM2 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health Siphoning Attacks , Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.Edited by ketsparrowhawk on January 16, 2020 8:21PM2 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
Not exactly.
We do know that Zos did not intend AC to be part of the game. They have clearly stated that much when they said it was an unintended consequence of the design of combat in the game.
However, since Zos has acknowledged that they have made changes to skills and added new skills and sets that advocate the weaving of basic attacks into our gameplay so the person you quoted is actually correct.
However I would have added Imbue Weapon and it's morphs to the list as it is only useful when weaving light attacks. Otherwise it is hard to get it to fire. Not to mention Zos has twice increased the damage LAs do over HAS. With the exception of spamming LAs in PvP the only reason to use them is if weaving them into skills, essentially canceling them.
So Zos is very specifically encouraging weaving LAs in multiple ways.4 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that these skills would be designed completely differently if they weren't meant to be used with LA weaving. The skill animation is irrelevant.
Lotus Blossom / Siphoning Attacks would be 10000% useless if LA weaving didn't exist. Nobody is just going to sit there and spam ONLY light attacks to get that small HOT. It only makes sense if it's getting weaved in with other abilities. Same is true for Grim Focus.. Spamming 5 light attacks ONLY in a row to charge up the spectral bow would be a gigantic DPS loss unless you're weaving the LA's in with other abilities at the same time. Same is true for Bound Armaments. These abilities were clearly designed to be used with LA weaving. Nobody would slot them otherwise.Edited by ketsparrowhawk on January 16, 2020 8:27PM3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
Not exactly.
We do know that Zos did not intend AC to be part of the game. They have clearly stated that much when they said it was an unintended consequence of the design of combat in the game.
However, since Zos has acknowledged that they have made changes to skills and added new skills and sets that advocate the weaving of basic attacks into our gameplay so the person you quoted is actually correct.
However I would have added Imbue Weapon and it's morphs to the list as it is only useful when weaving light attacks. Otherwise it is hard to get it to fire. Not to mention Zos has twice increased the damage LAs do over HAS. With the exception of spamming LAs in PvP the only reason to use them is if weaving them into skills, essentially canceling them.
So Zos is very specifically encouraging weaving LAs in multiple ways.
wrong, they stated "light attacks"
not "skills"
they are only talking about and promoting light attacks animation canceling, not the skills.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Animation canceling is just bad game design. It looks terrible, it is inelegant, and is contrary to how the Elder Scrolls games play. Many people don't use it because any logical person would assume something so stupid even exists.
How awesome would it be if the combat in ESO looked and felt liked the combat in Skyrim. Skyrim's combat felt grounded and impactful. Instead we have the mess of characters that look like they are having a stroke.
Outside of the multitude of coding problems, combat is the worst part of this game.
I mean I loved skyrim (most of us did), but are you seriously suggesting that combat in skyrim is better than combat in ESO? That is the most laughable thing I have read on the internet this year. Not the largest sample size as we are only a few weeks in, but that is just absurd. Combat has always been the pitfall of ES games (until ESO).
I wont disagree that they could work on cleaning up some animations here and there, but the ability to dynamically block, roll, and use light attacks layered between skills is what makes combat great in this game.3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that these skills would be designed completely differently if they weren't meant to be used with LA weaving. The skill animation is irrelevant.
Lotus Blossom / Siphoning Attacks would be 10000% useless if LA weaving didn't exist. Nobody is just going to sit there and spam ONLY light attacks to get that small HOT. It only makes sense if it's getting weaved in with other abilities. Same is true for Grim Focus.. Spamming 5 light attacks ONLY in a row to charge up the spectral bow would be a gigantic DPS loss unless you're weaving the LA's in with other abilities at the same time. Same is true for Bound Armaments. These abilities were clearly designed to be used with LA weaving. Nobody would slot them otherwise.
we all know that during beta and early launch it was not like that.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
Not exactly.
We do know that Zos did not intend AC to be part of the game. They have clearly stated that much when they said it was an unintended consequence of the design of combat in the game.
However, since Zos has acknowledged that they have made changes to skills and added new skills and sets that advocate the weaving of basic attacks into our gameplay so the person you quoted is actually correct.
However I would have added Imbue Weapon and it's morphs to the list as it is only useful when weaving light attacks. Otherwise it is hard to get it to fire. Not to mention Zos has twice increased the damage LAs do over HAS. With the exception of spamming LAs in PvP the only reason to use them is if weaving them into skills, essentially canceling them.
So Zos is very specifically encouraging weaving LAs in multiple ways.
wrong, they stated "light attacks"
not "skills"
they are only talking about and promoting light attacks animation canceling, not the skills.
Not really.
Zos has specifically said animation canceling is an accepted part of this game. That is a fact.
AC of a LA is just one part of AC itself. So you can split hairs all you want on that but you are still wrong.
Edit: also, the conversation was directly concerning LAs. If you read the first comment in the history you would see what I quoted was directly responding to a comment about LAs. So your point is misplaced. Thx for contributing though.Edited by idk on January 16, 2020 8:32PM4 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that these skills would be designed completely differently if they weren't meant to be used with LA weaving. The skill animation is irrelevant.
Lotus Blossom / Siphoning Attacks would be 10000% useless if LA weaving didn't exist. Nobody is just going to sit there and spam ONLY light attacks to get that small HOT. It only makes sense if it's getting weaved in with other abilities. Same is true for Grim Focus.. Spamming 5 light attacks ONLY in a row to charge up the spectral bow would be a gigantic DPS loss unless you're weaving the LA's in with other abilities at the same time. Same is true for Bound Armaments. These abilities were clearly designed to be used with LA weaving. Nobody would slot them otherwise.
we all know that during beta and early launch it was not like that.
That was then and this is now.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Don't need a load screen to tell you that. Just look at skills like Funnel Health, Grim Focus, Lotus Blossom, Bound Armaments, etc. Those abilities wouldn't exist as they do now if the devs did not intend for you to LA weave.
that is simply a false statement.
at no time did they intend for that to be canceled to the point where it is unknown to your opponent what you did to kill their character in what looked like a 1/10nth of a second glitch that landed multiple attacks on them instantly.
you are suggesting that just because the long animations exist means that it was intended to cancel the animations, and that statement is False.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that these skills would be designed completely differently if they weren't meant to be used with LA weaving. The skill animation is irrelevant.
Lotus Blossom / Siphoning Attacks would be 10000% useless if LA weaving didn't exist. Nobody is just going to sit there and spam ONLY light attacks to get that small HOT. It only makes sense if it's getting weaved in with other abilities. Same is true for Grim Focus.. Spamming 5 light attacks ONLY in a row to charge up the spectral bow would be a gigantic DPS loss unless you're weaving the LA's in with other abilities at the same time. Same is true for Bound Armaments. These abilities were clearly designed to be used with LA weaving. Nobody would slot them otherwise.
we all know that during beta and early launch it was not like that.
It did seem pretty clear they were speaking to how the skills are now,Edited by idk on January 16, 2020 8:39PM1 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭roflcopter wrote: »ZOS knows how to change the game to remove AC. They don't because it would make for clunky gameplay. Or, people would only use skills or attacks that have the shortest animations.
They make adjustments to the animation timings to support gameplay using Animation Canceling.
AC is part of the game play. You may like it or not like it, but it is not evidence of something broken.
They have gone on record that it went from bug to feature so at some point it was "broken" but then made a feature of the game.
Just as one has to admit that AC is part of the game they should admit that it is "broken".
I was not commenting on how it got into the game. It does not matter at this point how it got there. Its in the game now, and it is here to stay. And has been since early Alpha and beta and through launch. It is here to stay. ZOS does not want to remove it. In fact, they work on making it better.
And, just because something unintended happened does not mean it is broken.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭roflcopter wrote: »ZOS knows how to change the game to remove AC. They don't because it would make for clunky gameplay. Or, people would only use skills or attacks that have the shortest animations.
They make adjustments to the animation timings to support gameplay using Animation Canceling.
AC is part of the game play. You may like it or not like it, but it is not evidence of something broken.
They have gone on record that it went from bug to feature so at some point it was "broken" but then made a feature of the game.
Just as one has to admit that AC is part of the game they should admit that it is "broken". It's ok to admit both.
For clarity sake Zos never said it was broken. They did say it was an unintended consequence of the combat design. Far from something that was broken.
When understanding the need to be able to actively and quickly react to combat in this game but moving, dodging, blocking, and more it makes sense why can are not locked out of being able to do those actions due to an animation. Being that every skill requires a ~1 second GCD for it to do damage it there is a control that has always be in place and never broken.1 -
PlantersLogi✭✭LA weaving seems intuitive, why wouldn't you use it? Any new player picks it up right away0 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlantersLogi wrote: »LA weaving seems intuitive, why wouldn't you use it? Any new player picks it up right away
People get angry when they can't heavy attack everything to death in vet content and get the titles/skins they want.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |1 -
Lisutaris✭✭✭✭✭We/you can talk all day about what ZoS wanted to do/create/accept/....
One thing is for sure.
Looking like some1 who gets some electro shocks when doing a perfect rotation is somehow... annoying and stupid. xD
What would I give for good animations/skill proccs as rewards for playing a good rotation/attack stances (behind-, side-, front-attack, etc.).
Like I've said before, I don't dislike the actual animation cancelling system from a "high skill lvl" -> high dps reward pov. It's just ugly as hell and feels kind of broken/buggy/glitchy/exploity. (what it is ... at least vs ppl with 100+ latency or low-medium performance PCs...).
Now, pls let such threads just die.... and get to page 999+
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