Animation cancelling - approved by loading screen tip

Olupajmibanan

Hello.

Firstly, I would like to appologize for the photo of my screen. I know it's a nabish way to capture screenshots, but for some strange reason I can't capture screenshots during loading screens when playing in fullscreen mode (which I always do for optimal performance). Pressing Prtsc during loading screens does nothing and pressing Ctrl+Prtsc and then pasting into graphic editor will result in pasting a fully-black picture. When within a game, screenshots work just fine.

Now, the screenshot of a loading screen tip that tells you about existence of light attack weaving and actively promotes you to do so.



Guess, there is no counterargument to that, it's an indirect Zenimax statement and light attack weaving is here to stay, no matter if you like it or not.

iCaliban

Slowpoke.jpeg.

Not news. Has been in game for a long time

Olupajmibanan

iCaliban wrote: »

Slowpoke.jpeg.

Not news. Has been in game for a long time

Of course not. But I'll post this screenshot in every animation cancelling removal thread. It's the only physical evidence of ZoS approving animation cancelling.

krachall

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

jcm2606

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

People can't accept that the elites have something over them that's literally only necessary for getting into vet content, and even then that's a bit of a stretch. Classic case of "but I want it without putting effort into my build/playstyle!"

CassandraGemini

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Slowpoke.jpeg.

Not news. Has been in game for a long time

Of course not. But I'll post this screenshot in every animation cancelling removal thread. It's the only physical evidence of ZoS approving animation cancelling.

Wouldn't it have made more sense then to actually post it in that thread, instead of opening up a new one? I'm pretty sure we all know which one you're talking about, but still, here it is:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508057/remove-thread#latest

Lisutaris

Animation cancelling grants me nice numbers, so no bad feelings here.

It is still a crappy mechanic and should be changed. Creates a big dps/skill gap... thats not necessary and also easy interfered by lag/fps spikes/drops.
Gcd skills with auto attacks in between are way more stable and used in many mmorpgs.
Anim canc. makes pvp more interesting and fast paced... Only benefit.

Darkstorne

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

It wasn't intended by design. It's an unfortunate exploit of the awful animation system. Rather than damage being dealt when an attack visually connects with an opponent (hitbox and frame design) damage in ESO is dealt immediately as you press a button - the animation is irrelevant. Players then realized they could exploit that by cancelling a light attack into a skill before they've even begun raising their weapon to swing it, and the damage would still be dealt. You can then also cancel that skill into a block, so you're light attacking and skill attacking at the same time with full block damage mitigation. The other problem with this archaic design is that it prohibits reactive combat (timed blocks/dodges when you see an attack incoming). This only works on cast time skills and heavy attacks in ESO. If you "see" a light attack incoming the damage has already been dealt to you regardless of your action.

So when people say they want animation cancelling fixed, they don't mean removing the ability to cancel one attack into another, or into a block or dodge. They mean if you do cancel like that then the cancelled attack just shouldn't deal damage. Essentially they're asking for a functional combat system that would then open up reactive playstyles and baiting in PVP (see For Honor for a good combat system with animation cancelling).

ZOS' acceptance of the current state of the combat system is an ironically beautiful single player Bethesda game thing to do and say: "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

Anhedonie

There is a hint about animation cancelling when you claim leveling rewards as well.

Olupajmibanan

Darkstorne wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

So when people say they want animation cancelling fixed, they don't mean removing the ability to cancel one attack into another, or into a block or dodge. They mean if you do cancel like that then the cancelled attack just shouldn't deal damage. Essentially they're asking for a functional combat system that would then open up reactive playstyles and baiting in PVP (see For Honor for a good combat system with animation cancelling).

Nvm my bad, didn't understand properly.

I am yet to see a single animation cancelling removal thread that only wants "instant damage after cancel" fix. All of these just ask for removal of animation cancelling altogether. You are completely right that damage should be dealt at moment of landing. But no tooltip, no statement or anything states that this is a feature. The tip only states that you can start firing a light attack and cast an ability immediately after and the light attack will still fire. And 99,99% animation canceling removal threads ask for removal of this.

Starlock

Darkstorne wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

It wasn't intended by design. It's an unfortunate exploit of the awful animation system. Rather than damage being dealt when an attack visually connects with an opponent (hitbox and frame design) damage in ESO is dealt immediately as you press a button - the animation is irrelevant. Players then realized they could exploit that by cancelling a light attack into a skill before they've even begun raising their weapon to swing it, and the damage would still be dealt. You can then also cancel that skill into a block, so you're light attacking and skill attacking at the same time with full block damage mitigation. The other problem with this archaic design is that it prohibits reactive combat (timed blocks/dodges when you see an attack incoming). This only works on cast time skills and heavy attacks in ESO. If you "see" a light attack incoming the damage has already been dealt to you regardless of your action.

So when people say they want animation cancelling fixed, they don't mean removing the ability to cancel one attack into another, or into a block or dodge. They mean if you do cancel like that then the cancelled attack just shouldn't deal damage. Essentially they're asking for a functional combat system that would then open up reactive playstyles and baiting in PVP (see For Honor for a good combat system with animation cancelling).

ZOS' acceptance of the current state of the combat system is an ironically beautiful single player Bethesda game thing to do and say: "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

Thank you.

The level of misrepresentation on this topic is unfortunate. That's not to say there aren't occasional players who straight up want animation canceling removed for questionable reasons, but the main argument has always been about having the visuals/animations happening on screen accurately reflect what is happening in the game. It is just very bizarre to have animation cancels not interrupt the firing of an ability in a game. In no other game I've played is this considered a normal, acceptable practice - it is considered a bug, glitch, exploit, or cheat that is eventually patched out of the game if at all possible. I would love for ESO to have an intuitive, reactive combat system. I've got no illusions about the difficulty of such a task, hence I've often remarked it is probably best suited for an ESO2.

ZeroXFF

Just because it's the status quo, doesn't mean it's good design or good for the game.

We aren't asking whether there will be a change, we know what the company stance is, we want them to change it. So your screenshot is absolutely irrelevant in this conversation.

Nebthet78

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Slowpoke.jpeg.

Not news. Has been in game for a long time

Of course not. But I'll post this screenshot in every animation cancelling removal thread. It's the only physical evidence of ZoS approving animation cancelling.

The only reason ZOS approves of Animation Cancelling is because they don't know how to actually fix the mechanic in the game that allows for it. It has always been an unintended function of their defense coding that allows you to block quickly when needed. Since they couldn't fix it, they couldn't punish people who were able to take advantage of it in combat, so ZOS had to accept it, and a few years later, they put in the on screen tip to try to help other players learn how to animation cancel, though it hasn't ever really worked.

Eventually, if they ever get their damn code figured out, they will likely remove or modify how this works. Sadly it is a mechanic that is heavily influenced by a player's Ping and Frame Rates and unfortunately those who are disabled with hand and wrist issues will never be able to take advantage of this like other players have been able to.

There are also many more who actually work this into using macros on a gaming keyboard and don't really manually work this skill themselves, but let their game systems do it for them and like to sit behind them going on about how skilled they are at the game. I consider those type of people cheaters.

BlueRaven

Animation canceling is just bad game design. It looks terrible, it is inelegant, and is contrary to how the Elder Scrolls games play. Many people don't use it because any logical person would assume something so stupid even exists.

How awesome would it be if the combat in ESO looked and felt liked the combat in Skyrim. Skyrim's combat felt grounded and impactful. Instead we have the mess of characters that look like they are having a stroke.

Outside of the multitude of coding problems, combat is the worst part of this game.

exeeter702

1) not news. This is common knowlege

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

3) animation canceling is not a bug or an exploit that zos couldnt fix

exeeter702

BlueRaven wrote: »

Animation canceling is just bad game design. It looks terrible, it is inelegant, and is contrary to how the Elder Scrolls games play. Many people don't use it because any logical person would assume something so stupid even exists.

How awesome would it be if the combat in ESO looked and felt liked the combat in Skyrim. Skyrim's combat felt grounded and impactful. Instead we have the mess of characters that look like they are having a stroke.

Outside of the multitude of coding problems, combat is the worst part of this game.

You do not know what you are talking about.

Malmai

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Hello.

Firstly, I would like to appologize for the photo of my screen. I know it's a nabish way to capture screenshots, but for some strange reason I can't capture screenshots during loading screens when playing in fullscreen mode (which I always do for optimal performance). Pressing Prtsc during loading screens does nothing and pressing Ctrl+Prtsc and then pasting into graphic editor will result in pasting a fully-black picture. When within a game, screenshots work just fine.

Now, the screenshot of a loading screen tip that tells you about existence of light attack weaving and actively promotes you to do so.



Guess, there is no counterargument to that, it's an indirect Zenimax statement and light attack weaving is here to stay, no matter if you like it or not.

Thats why 3/4 stopped playing and also lag and performance. I guess some people never learn when they get burned...

Olupajmibanan

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?

Ysbriel

Not intended + unable to fix it = feature

CassandraGemini

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?

No, it's actually not. Light attack weaving only means the process of putting a light attack in between each skill, in the form of: Skill -> LA -> skill -> LA and so on.

Animation cancelling happens when you disrupt the animation of the light attack, so that the damage registers, while the next skill already fires. Animation cancelling is obviously based on the LA weaving, but they're not the same thing.

Royaji

Darkstorne wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

It wasn't intended by design. It's an unfortunate exploit of the awful animation system. Rather than damage being dealt when an attack visually connects with an opponent (hitbox and frame design) damage in ESO is dealt immediately as you press a button - the animation is irrelevant. Players then realized they could exploit that by cancelling a light attack into a skill before they've even begun raising their weapon to swing it, and the damage would still be dealt. You can then also cancel that skill into a block, so you're light attacking and skill attacking at the same time with full block damage mitigation. The other problem with this archaic design is that it prohibits reactive combat (timed blocks/dodges when you see an attack incoming). This only works on cast time skills and heavy attacks in ESO. If you "see" a light attack incoming the damage has already been dealt to you regardless of your action.

So when people say they want animation cancelling fixed, they don't mean removing the ability to cancel one attack into another, or into a block or dodge. They mean if you do cancel like that then the cancelled attack just shouldn't deal damage. Essentially they're asking for a functional combat system that would then open up reactive playstyles and baiting in PVP (see For Honor for a good combat system with animation cancelling).

Come back to us when For Honor manages to put 300 or so players in the same game. And I'm saying it as someone who loved For Honor.

Would a more complex combat system be cool? Sure. But this would be a technical achievement no MMO to my knowledge has ever managed to achieve. And taking into account their track record, I somehow doubt that ZOS will be the ones to make any kind of technical breakthrough in the genre.

What works for a 4v4 arena game is not applicable to an MMO. So the only realistic way to "remove animation cancelling" is to do what every other MMO does (to limited success) and put cast times on every skill. And this is the kind of tradeoff the anti-anti-anicancelling people are not willing to accept.

Maybe this way we can all see each others points better.

metabLast3r

To be brutally honest, I enjoy the fast action key/button gameplay. I personally do not care for GCDs, 1 button pressing/waiting type of gameplay. Glad they never changed it. Everything feels manual (combo's). I come from a fighter game background though. I'd rather leave the turn based feel back in the past.

Nemesis7884

turning a bug into a feature instead of fixing the system....that is bethesda in a nutshell for you....

Royaji

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

turning a bug into a feature instead of fixing the system....that is bethesda in a nutshell for you....

Again, one way of fixing it is technically impossible. The other is putting a cast time on EVERY single skill.

Will you do it?

BlueRaven

exeeter702 wrote: »

1) not news. This is common knowlege

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

3) animation canceling is not a bug or an exploit that zos couldnt fix

The best response to this is;

exeeter702 wrote: »

You do not know what you are talking about.

•••

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?

This ^.

idk

krachall wrote: »

I still don't understand the reasoning behind people calling for it to be removed. It's available to every player, every class, every level ,every role, every race, every everything.

Are people simply saying "I can't figure out how to do it so I want it removed for everyone else?"

Yep. You provided the answer. It’s no different than getting killed by a skill and instead of figuring out how to avoid the damage or mitigate it some ask for it to be nerfed.

roflcopter

ESO has some pretty productive and constructive forums.

Grats ZOS

The_Old_Goat

Malmai wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Hello.

Firstly, I would like to appologize for the photo of my screen. I know it's a nabish way to capture screenshots, but for some strange reason I can't capture screenshots during loading screens when playing in fullscreen mode (which I always do for optimal performance). Pressing Prtsc during loading screens does nothing and pressing Ctrl+Prtsc and then pasting into graphic editor will result in pasting a fully-black picture. When within a game, screenshots work just fine.

Now, the screenshot of a loading screen tip that tells you about existence of light attack weaving and actively promotes you to do so.



Guess, there is no counterargument to that, it's an indirect Zenimax statement and light attack weaving is here to stay, no matter if you like it or not.

Thats why 3/4 stopped playing and also lag and performance. I guess some people never learn when they get burned...

I can guarantee that nobody ever left this game because of animation canceling alone.

Siohwenoeht

BlueRaven wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

1) not news. This is common knowlege

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

3) animation canceling is not a bug or an exploit that zos couldnt fix

The best response to this is;

exeeter702 wrote: »

You do not know what you are talking about.

•••

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) light attack weaving is not animation canceling

Wut? You cancel the animation of a light attack with an ability, but somehow it's not animation cancelling?

This ^.

You didn't read the other post? Weaving is following a skill with a LA while skills are on gcd. Do that fast enough and you ani-cancel the LA, but weaving doesn't necessarily mean cancelling.

Nestor

ZOS knows how to change the game to remove AC. They don't because it would make for clunky gameplay. Or, people would only use skills or attacks that have the shortest animations.

They make adjustments to the animation timings to support gameplay using Animation Canceling.

AC is part of the game play. You may like it or not like it, but it is not evidence of something broken.

Nemesis7884

The_Old_Goat wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Hello.

Firstly, I would like to appologize for the photo of my screen. I know it's a nabish way to capture screenshots, but for some strange reason I can't capture screenshots during loading screens when playing in fullscreen mode (which I always do for optimal performance). Pressing Prtsc during loading screens does nothing and pressing Ctrl+Prtsc and then pasting into graphic editor will result in pasting a fully-black picture. When within a game, screenshots work just fine.

Now, the screenshot of a loading screen tip that tells you about existence of light attack weaving and actively promotes you to do so.



Guess, there is no counterargument to that, it's an indirect Zenimax statement and light attack weaving is here to stay, no matter if you like it or not.

Thats why 3/4 stopped playing and also lag and performance. I guess some people never learn when they get burned...

I can guarantee that nobody ever left this game because of animation canceling alone.

no but it doesnt make the games combat morw attractive either ... and honestly this game has enough issues because systems werent thought through when built...