Do whole number percentages in the CP trees round down?

Grymmoire · November 2017

I have read all the CP discussion threads ever since CP's introduction and I am still confused as to whether whole percentages, ex. 75 points in Hardy supposedly yields one a 14% bonus but is it actually awarding that flat amount or is the math inherent to this system forcing it to 13.9999%, i.e. 13% (disregard term "round down" use whatever you wish to explain the function). Seventy-six points, on the other hand would yield 14.07 (from memory) ensuring at least 14%.

I ask for clarification since many build sites still use "jump points" that land one on a whole percentage in both the 15% and the 25% trees. hate to think one more point would ensure the exact percentage being seen.

thanks in advance for any responses and hope they are not conflicting.

Loc2262 · November 2017

CPs are rounded down, that's correct. So 13.99% would indeed become 13%.

I don't understand your example though. 75 points in Hardy give you exactly 14%. There's no need to round down there. Why should it be forced down to 13.999..% and then rounded down?

EDIT: You're actually correct, speaking mathematically, "rounding" is the wrong term here. Rounding to the nearest integer means that x to x point 4999... becomes x, and x point 5 to x point 999... becomes x+1. In case of CP, the fractional part of the number is simply discarded. In programming terms that'd be called "truncating".

DeadlyRecluse · November 2017

Yeah, anything with a percent value is rounded down to the nearest whole number...and this information is not provided to players anywhere in-game.

Loc2262 wrote: »

I don't understand your example though. 75 points in Hardy give you exactly 14%. There's no need to round down there. Why should it be forced down to 13.999..% and then rounded down?

I think the question is "Is the displayed 14% actually 14% exactly, or is it 13.999% rounded up by the UI, then rounded back down to 13 by the engine?"

...and I don't know, but it would be easy to test. Take it to 13%, measure someone's attack, take it to 14%, remeasure.

Nestor · November 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

I don't understand your example though. 75 points in Hardy give you exactly 14%. There's no need to round down there. Why should it be forced down to 13.999..% and then rounded down?

EDIT: You're actually correct, speaking mathematically, "rounding" is the wrong term here. Rounding to the nearest integer means that x to x point 4999... becomes x, and x point 5 to x point 999... becomes x+1. In case of CP, the fractional part of the number is simply discarded. In programming terms that'd be called "truncating".

There are some stars that display a whole number and the underlying value is really the .999 or something, which will round down. So, its a good idea to invest so that your at something like x.12 or some other tick just above your target.

Loc2262 · November 2017

Oh, that's interesting. Which stars specifically are we talking about? I checked the ESO Build Editor, and it shows precisely 14% for Hardy, so it shouldn't be that.

EDIT: Also, if that's really the case, it's very stupid that the GUI shows such a misleading value.

pj4533 · November 2017

While percentages are rounded down for the purposes of tooltips (and thus 'jump points' are used by min/maxers for formula calculations, since tooltips are all the numbers they have), they are NOT rounded when calculations are done on the server.

tl;dr: if you are min/maxing, yes. for everyone else, don't worry about it, just have fun.

Loc2262 · November 2017

pj4533 wrote: »

While percentages are rounded down for the purposes of tooltips (and thus 'jump points' are used by min/maxers for formula calculations, since tooltips are all the numbers they have), they are NOT rounded when calculations are done on the server.

Where did you get that information from?

In the tooltips, they are shown NOT rounded down. If they weren't rounded down for server calculation, why would minmaxers use jump points?

Grymmoire · November 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

Oh, that's interesting. Which stars specifically are we talking about? I checked the ESO Build Editor, and it shows precisely 14% for Hardy, so it shouldn't be that.

EDIT: Also, if that's really the case, it's very stupid that the GUI shows such a misleading value.

Yes this is why I inquired because I have seen it stated by others besides @Nestor above, that 14% exactly is actually 13.999%, which would truncated to 13% without the extra point to push it beyond an exact 14%.

From memory, Hardy, Tenacity, Elemental Defender, Arcanist and Thick Skin all have exact percentage jump points, which worried me, so I place an extra point in each to ensure they were above the exact percents.

pj4533 · November 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

pj4533 wrote: »

While percentages are rounded down for the purposes of tooltips (and thus 'jump points' are used by min/maxers for formula calculations, since tooltips are all the numbers they have), they are NOT rounded when calculations are done on the server.

Where did you get that information from?

In the tooltips, they are shown NOT rounded down. If they weren't rounded down for server calculation, why would minmaxers use jump points?

The 'rounded' numbers are the effects of the CP, not the CP tooltip. Like 'raises X by 12.34%', the tooltip on the ability(s) in question will be rounded. I believe @Gilliamtherogue said the reason to use jump points even with the server calculation was because the tooltips are all the numbers they have to min/max from, so they use what they have. But perhaps he can shed more light on it.

Information comes from a conversation a streamer had with a ZOS dev. Said there is a lot of misinformation out there about this.

Grymmoire · November 2017

pj4533 wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

pj4533 wrote: »

While percentages are rounded down for the purposes of tooltips (and thus 'jump points' are used by min/maxers for formula calculations, since tooltips are all the numbers they have), they are NOT rounded when calculations are done on the server.

Where did you get that information from?

In the tooltips, they are shown NOT rounded down. If they weren't rounded down for server calculation, why would minmaxers use jump points?

The 'rounded' numbers are the effects of the CP, not the CP tooltip. Like 'raises X by 12.34%', the tooltip on the ability(s) in question will be rounded. I believe @Gilliamtherogue said the reason to use jump points even with the server calculation was because the tooltips are all the numbers they have to min/max from, so they use what they have. But perhaps he can shed more light on it.

Information comes from a conversation a streamer had with a ZOS dev. Said there is a lot of misinformation out there about this.

And issues (questions) like this could simply be clarified IF someone from ZOS would just state, for example, regarding CP allocations don't worry players 14% is 14% not 13.xxx% but.......we mushrooms like the darkness eh!?

Yes I understand we have plenty of CP points but I hate to think I am misappropriating them due to insufficient knowledge.

Nestor · November 2017

pj4533 wrote: »

While percentages are rounded down for the purposes of tooltips (and thus 'jump points' are used by min/maxers for formula calculations, since tooltips are all the numbers they have), they are NOT rounded when calculations are done on the server.

tl;dr: if you are min/maxing, yes. for everyone else, don't worry about it, just have fun.

That was changed a few patches ago. In an attempt to improve server performance, they treat the values like integers and not whole numbers. Smaller fields to move around.

DeadlyRecluse · November 2017

pj4533 wrote: »

I believe Gilliamtherogue said the reason to use jump points even with the server calculation was because the tooltips are all the numbers they have to min/max from, so they use what they have. s.

Target dummy says what?

Minmaxing at the highest level never really goes by tooltip numbers outside of 1-to-1 comparisons as they are notoriously unreliable.

Nestor · November 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

Oh, that's interesting. Which stars specifically are we talking about? I checked the ESO Build Editor, and it shows precisely 14% for Hardy, so it shouldn't be that.

EDIT: Also, if that's really the case, it's very stupid that the GUI shows such a misleading value.

It is kind of dumb, but with the change to Integers in the calcs, it makes sense.

There are only a few of the stars, the whole number ones that are designed to be whole numbers at certain points still give full value. I think they are the one that shows 19% when your close to the jump. Elborne and Master at Arms are the ones that come to mind. If you were to do the math it would not come out as a whole number, so it is a display issue. Somewhere in the thread linked below it says which ones. That being said, with an optimal loadout, I usually have 5 to 6 champ points "laying around" to assign. So its a small issue overall.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/345589/new-jump-points-on-almost-every-cp-star-read-before-reassigning-your-cp/p1

The most important take away is not to leave a bunch of stars at 12.57% or 11.89%, either take them down to or up to 12.05%. Or whatever the nearest whole number is for any star.

This has a nice chart to print out, helpful for planning. Also, links to CP Calculators

https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/

pj4533 · November 2017

I would love to know the reactions of ZOS devs when they read a thread like this... lololol.

@Nestor hadn't heard about the server calculations changing, was that in the patch notes someplace? The conversation I heard with the dev was prob 5 or 6 months ago, not sure exactly.

Regardless, I just ignore jump points since I don't min/max anyway.

PS: BiS doesn't exist. Good talk.

Beardimus · December 2017

@Asayre is the man for this stuff!

Nestor · December 2017

pj4533 wrote: »

I would love to know the reactions of ZOS devs when they read a thread like this... lololol.

hadn't heard about the server calculations changing, was that in the patch notes someplace? The conversation I heard with the dev was prob 5 or 6 months ago, not sure exactly.

Regardless, I just ignore jump points since I don't min/max anyway.

That is about when it happened, back in May.

Paying attention to the Jump points can be beneficial as I have "harvested" more than 30 points from characters on wasted allocations (which were good before the patch change), enough to give me another passive. But, stressing over them is not needed either.

Danksta · December 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

Oh, that's interesting. Which stars specifically are we talking about? I checked the ESO Build Editor, and it shows precisely 14% for Hardy, so it shouldn't be that.

EDIT: Also, if that's really the case, it's very stupid that the GUI shows such a misleading value.

But jump points themselves are pretty stupid and could easily be avoided if ZoS weren't so lazy. On the CP screen it should read invest x amount of points to reach y%.

Publius_Scipio · December 2017

Yes. CP stars round down to the nearest whole %. ZOS purposefully built that into the system. You have to burn X amount of CP in order to get the next tick of benefit.

That's why a CP star with 12.23% gives you only 12% for purpose of the game's calculations. However many CP it took to make that 0.23% might be better spent in another star.

starkerealm · December 2017

I'm just going to say this again. Instead of giving us these incremental values that don't actually work, someone should probably rework the CP interface, so that you can see the current value, and how many points you need to spend to get the next bump.

WrathOfInnos · December 2017

It depends on which champion point, some whole numbers round up and others round down. Check this link for specifical jump points: https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/

fgoron2000 · December 2017

One to be careful of is 19%. I don't recall which stars they're on, but the thing is, that the benefit you get is from rounding down, ie 12.89 or 12.05 will both give you 12% of a bonus. However, the tooltips appear to be rounded up or down, to the nearest whole number. At the moment, they're showing 2 decimal places on the tooltips, but if they showed the exact values, going out several decimal places further, you would apparently see eventually, 18.99#### percent, instead of 19%. So if that value is actually below 19, then the bonus you get will round down, so you actually get 18%. You don't get 19% until you go one point higher, I believe to 19.24.

I don't know the exact math behind this, but the concept is straightforward - the tooltips will be rounded to the nearest integer, while the actual bonus value will always be rounded down.There have been several forum topics on the subject.

edit -
this doesn't apply to all tooltips that indicate exact integers like 14% or 15%. For whatever mathematical reasons, those values actually are 14+ or 15+. Apparently the only one that has this issue is any tooltip that shows 19% exactly

SirAndy · December 2017

Nestor wrote: »

That was changed a few patches ago. In an attempt to improve server performance, they treat the values like integers and not whole numbers. Smaller fields to move around.

Well, actually a 32bit float is the same size as a 32bit integer, so that wouldn't really make any difference.
Now, if they use 64bit doubles, casting them to 32bit integers will cut the amount of data that needs to be transferred by half.
But, they could just as well cast them into 32bit floats for the same effect without losing the fraction.

Thing is, for those percentage numbers in the CP tree, there is absolutely no need to use the high precision 64bit doubles. You would get the exact same numbers/results using 32bit floats.

NobleX35 · December 2017

It would be nice if the CP system only displayed whole number percentages. That way everyone would know exactly how many points it would require to invest into a specific tree, because the whole number precentage would not change until enough points were invested to bump it up or down. This would probably help a lot of players out and provide them more accurate information. I only recently learned myself that the system rounds to nearest whole percentages, so for the longest time I was wasting points.

AweBiTr · February 2018

It is very stupid system

Unparagoned1994 · January 2020

@ZOS_GinaBruno could u help explain this please or find a way to make it known to players how this works?
I feel that this needs to be integrated into the game so that all players know how you guys designed the Champion Points.
I help out a lot of new players and they have no idea about these "jump points" or whatever u want to call it so if you guys could somehow put that maybe on the champion tree menu or something that would help out all these new players you all are trying to draw in so badly.. (even though meanwhile most top end players leaving because of all the stuff they have been put through this last year.) Usually when i que for my campaign i can do a wall repair and if thats all the ap that i get i can tell how many people are on the current pvp server and while there used to be numbers in the thousands now there is only 300 or 400 in this last campaign i was in on xb1 NA and it was the alliance locked one which almost always had full bars and a long que to get in... long story short i feel like you all are losing more players than you are bringing in i might be wrong only you all will know the answers to that but I do know the current state of the game is not well... u put in map add-ons to help with quests and lore books and all that but fail to explain how cp scale? I love this game a lot and u could tell if u look at my gamer tag which is the same as my name on here and look at how much time i poor into the game and i was wrong about the patch that i thought u should revert all the skills to it wasnt the scalebreaker patch it was the murkmire patch thats when everything was pretty balanced in my own opinion of being someone who has played this game religiously since the launch of it on xb1... come on be like trump make eso great again lol except actually do it unlike him lol thanks)
your forever loyal player on xb1 NA server,
Unparagoned1993

Taleof2Cities · January 2020

This thread is a good read, @Unparagoned1994 ... probably just the opening post is all you need:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/340367/impact-of-mage-champion-point-rebalances/p1

fastolfv_ESO · January 2020

the game rounds no matter what, so you need extra pts beyond an exact number or it rounds down a full 1%

Hallothiel · January 2020

It’s a ridiculous system - especially if you are a player that does not look things up online - why have percentages at all?

What is the point of spending CP on increments that don’t make a difference - but it LOOKS like they do when you add them? Very deceptive & unclear & a tad unfair.

redlink1979 · January 2020

@Grymmoire Check this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459962/champion-points-jump-points-explained-guide

Cavedog · January 2020

To know that the CP system is a bit ridiculous just read this thread. Seriously.

I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've been reading up on this issue for years, and still don't have a straight, clear answer because nobody from ZOS has chimed in to explain it once and for all.

I'm assuming any full number that appears on the screen when viewing the CP's is valid. If that number is 14.00%, I'm assuming I'm getting 14%. I better be anyway.

blendertoes · January 2020

It is all about computational efficiency. The percentages with decimals displayed on the CP allocation screen are stored with a data type of “double” or “float”. The original implementation of the CP system used these numbers in the calculations, but as described in the posts linked above, a change was made in April of 2017 that removed the decimal portions.

From a coding perspective, this involves changing the data type to “integer”, which truncates (removes) the decimal and is therefore less data. Truncation is different than rounding in that truncation ignores the numbers to the right of the decimal, while rounding must first make a comparison and then a decision about which integer to store.

The end result is less data to transmit and simplified calculations. I suspect the changes were made to improve server performance with a growing population.

Why didn’t ZOS explain their plan very well? No idea.