vBRP Dual Wield - a reconsideration

xylena · December 2019

Have either of you dueled with BRP DW? It's really not efficient if you can't use LoS, and as someone else mentioned earlier, the opportunity cost of running back bar DW is very high because the heavily nerfed DW skill line doesn't offer much other than Quick Cloak for PvP anymore.

Solariken · December 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think there’s one significant piece of this puzzle that has not been mentioned specifically. Running BRP dual wield back bar requires you to have DUAL WIELD as your back bar. I know this seems obvious, but the opportunity cost of using the BRP set is not just 2 set slots, it means no bow back bar for stamina damage builds, no Resto back bar for tanky builds, no 2h back bar for higher weapon damage. There’s really nothing else in the DW skill line that’s useful, so you have to give up an entire weapon skill line just to use Blade Cloak.

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

xylena · December 2019

Solariken wrote: »

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

Huh? Any defensive or utility back bar can proc alchemy poisons while you're on the back bar, Resto and Bow both do it at range. Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar, which is great, but DW currently brings nothing to the table outside Quick Cloak. The DW passives only apply to DW damage. Whirling Blades is a worse version of Reverse Slice. Flurry is unreliable and partially functional. Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade have been destroyed by nerfs. Also, pressure damage doesn't exist in this meta.

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khajiitNPC · December 2019

Uh — didn’t quick cloak and blade cloak used to give major protection? Then when BRP came out it lost major protection so it could go onto the weapon...so basically people complaining about BRP providing a buff that blade cloak once had. I see. Carry on.

Iskiab · December 2019

xylena wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

Huh? Any defensive or utility back bar can proc alchemy poisons while you're on the back bar, Resto and Bow both do it at range. Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar, which is great, but DW currently brings nothing to the table outside Quick Cloak. The DW passives only apply to DW damage. Whirling Blades is a worse version of Reverse Slice. Flurry is unreliable and partially functional. Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade have been destroyed by nerfs. Also, pressure damage doesn't exist in this meta.

This is wrong. There are only some abilities that will proc from your back bar and carry over to the front.

Only light, heavy attacks and weapon skills will do it. It has to be a weapon ability that does damage over time but doesn’t count as a dot.

I think the abilities that do are blade cloak, stampede, elemental blockade and maybe poison injection (I’m not sure about injection). It’s pretty hard as mag to have a weapon damage enchant proc from your back bar and carry over to the front unless you use blockade.

You can use abilities or light attack and then switch bars, but the duration is really short so it’s not as effective.

WrathOfInnos · December 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

Huh? Any defensive or utility back bar can proc alchemy poisons while you're on the back bar, Resto and Bow both do it at range. Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar, which is great, but DW currently brings nothing to the table outside Quick Cloak. The DW passives only apply to DW damage. Whirling Blades is a worse version of Reverse Slice. Flurry is unreliable and partially functional. Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade have been destroyed by nerfs. Also, pressure damage doesn't exist in this meta.

This is wrong. There are only some abilities that will proc from your back bar and carry over to the front.

Only light, heavy attacks and weapon skills will do it. It has to be a weapon ability that does damage over time but doesn’t count as a dot.

I think the abilities that do are blade cloak, stampede, elemental blockade and maybe poison injection (I’m not sure about injection). It’s pretty hard as mag to have a weapon damage enchant proc from your back bar and carry over to the front unless you use blockade.

You can use abilities or light attack and then switch bars, but the duration is really short so it’s not as effective.

Any AoE DoTs can proc enchants while on the other bar. So add Endless Hail to the list, but the DoTs from Poison Injection, Reach, and Rending Slashes do not. Basically anything that sticks to the target (so they cant simply walk out if it) was removed from the enchant proc list a few patches ago.

xylena · December 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

This is wrong. There are only some abilities that will proc from your back bar and carry over to the front... I think the abilities that do are blade cloak, stampede, elemental blockade and maybe poison injection (I’m not sure about injection).

Quick Cloak is a Blade Cloak morph.

Back bar Poison Injection does not proc back bar enchants or poisons while on your front bar. Single target DoTs were nerfed to not do that anymore a while back.

idk · December 2019

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

@idk I think the major source of confusion for you is that you're forgetting how the "density" of backbar sets are derived.

I am certainly not confused. Heck, the OP talk mostly about things other than the BRP set bonus. It seems more you are complaining about everything else due to the overall focus which was the point I was making. Heck, most of the replies in this thread are either saying some of the same things I have said or are discussing aspects posted in the OP other than the BRP set. That just proves my point is not an isolated view on the statement above.

Solariken · December 2019

xylena wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

Huh? Any defensive or utility back bar can proc alchemy poisons while you're on the back bar, Resto and Bow both do it at range. Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar, which is great, but DW currently brings nothing to the table outside Quick Cloak. The DW passives only apply to DW damage. Whirling Blades is a worse version of Reverse Slice. Flurry is unreliable and partially functional. Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade have been destroyed by nerfs. Also, pressure damage doesn't exist in this meta.

No the distinction is that DW can do it passively while you're attacking on your front bar. Also pressure damage is a huge deal in BGs - DD poisons are BIS man. Not to mention the nigh requirement of running Major Evasion with all the Leap and Northern Storm spamming in BGs.

idk · December 2019

Solariken wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Except DW is the only backbar choice that allows you to proc poisons from the back bar and adds a layer of consistent pressure damage. There really is no sacrifice involved, it's just playstyle preference. Outside of ultimates none of the other backbar choices offer something similar.

Huh? Any defensive or utility back bar can proc alchemy poisons while you're on the back bar, Resto and Bow both do it at range. Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar, which is great, but DW currently brings nothing to the table outside Quick Cloak. The DW passives only apply to DW damage. Whirling Blades is a worse version of Reverse Slice. Flurry is unreliable and partially functional. Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade have been destroyed by nerfs. Also, pressure damage doesn't exist in this meta.

No the distinction is that DW can do it passively while you're attacking on your front bar. Also pressure damage is a huge deal in BGs - DD poisons are BIS man. Not to mention the nigh requirement of running Major Evasion with all the Leap and Northern Storm spamming in BGs.

But this has to do with the skill itself, People running DW in will use this skill even if they do not have BRP equipped.

xylena · December 2019

xylena wrote: »

Quick Cloak can proc them while you're on your front 2h bar

Solariken wrote: »

DW can do it passively while you're attacking on your front bar.

Sounds like we're on the same page then.

Solariken wrote: »

Also pressure damage is a huge deal in BGs - DD poisons are BIS man. Not to mention the nigh requirement of running Major Evasion with all the Leap and Northern Storm spamming in BGs.

Everyone needs to stop with "but it works against solo randoms in No-CP" when it's clearly yet another game mechanic nerfed to uselessness against anyone with a brain in CP or against group healing in No-CP. If you want to try to make the point that ESO PvP feels better when you remove CP, zergs, healbots, PvDoor, and organized groups... I'm inclined to agree, but it's a different discussion.

I'll also agree that Major Evasion is very useful, but you're just reinforcing the point that DW doesn't bring anything to the table other than Quick Cloak. Stam builds are going to run Major Evasion whether they run BRP DW or not.