vBRP Dual Wield - a reconsideration

SoixanteNeuf

What if I told you there was a backbar ability set and skill that :

• gives on demand major protection and major expedition for 3 and 4 seconds respectively, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• gives a useful extra line of stamina regen, bumping up its stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

You'd probably think it was overlooked, like vamp drain's tooltip retaining its full damage value from Scalebreaker despite being a dot.

I think it's worth considering that vBRP dual wield and the way it stacks with an already defensively dense skill like quick cloak has been the single hardest defensive carry while kiting in this game for the past 3 patches. It outperforms every single other pvp dungeon set by miles(masters/vAS/brp). Pirate skeleton's major protection was gated behind RNG and came with a minor defile penalty yet was still regarded as the strongest defensive monster set.

vBRP dw gives on demand major protection, letting you use it both pre-emptively or in a reactionary manner : major protection + minor protection + psijic dmg absorb shield + bloodspawn proc + 2x defensive traits + life drain/escapist poisons makes damaging most experienced stam players a fool's errand with a single button press, resulting in an extremely efficient damage resource drain from opponents, while they chase/attack you.

Compared to other backbar weapons like SnB or bow with medium armor, major protection/expedition/evasion offers far more survivability utility than SnB. From an offensive standpoint, master's bow requires a bar switch and 1 gcd to proc the berserker glyph - being forced to run infused with the bow's comparatively lower wpn dmg = weaker vigor tooltip and lower armor.

I'd like to propose removing the major protection and replacing it with a 8-10 second minor protection buff instead, freeing the back bar ultimate slot in place of temporal guard.

Qbiken

I agree that the weapon needs readjustment, and I'm all for removing major protection from it, but making it minor protection would be an incredibly boring change. I'd rather see it doing something unique like for example how the vMA restostaff works.

idk

The set bonus provides two things.

• 129 Stamina recovery, hardly enough to bump the stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus. which seems to be what OP is suggesting.
• Major Protection for three seconds which costs 2800 stamina in medium armor.

That is the set bonus for the weapon named in the title, seemingly the focus for the thread.

What you get running any other DW set and temporal guard's

• major expedition for 4 seconds, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

It seems OP is discussing that they do not like the DW weapon line and a very specific ultimate as most of the list has nothing to do with the set bonus for the special weapon OP mentioned in the title.

Further, does Temporal Guard provide Minor Protection when it is not on the active bar? I have not used it myself but that type of passive tends to require the skill to be on the active bar. If that is the case then it is irrelevant to be brought into the list.

I am not suggesting the set bonus is good or bad, just that the picture painted is very misleading and as such would not lead to a constructive conversation.

MartiniDaniels

I can easily list up to 10 things which allow to avoid ton of damage with little effort, BRP DW is one of those yes, but nerfing it alone won't break "tank meta". Maybe ZOS should introduce new monster helm with major berserk or major vulnerability or buff back st dots, remove cast time from ultimates and so on.

robpr

Its has too short duration to be concerned with. Yes, it provides protection when Vigor heals you up - at a cost like 25% of your stam in total. And opponent wont just stand and wait your veil turns off - he will try snare, root and stun you loosing even more stamina in result.
It's good for protecting your retreat though.

Sneakers

People die all the time in Cyro. I can agree that 1v1 fights vs two competent people who know how to build to survive will take a long time (several minutes) at times before one makes a mistake that gets them killed.

But isnt long 1v1s a positive?

People tend to die quite quick once properly assisted on by 2-4 players (if its small scale for example).

In a 4v4 or 4vX on a tanky target you can drop major vuln + major defile and assist the target down in matter of 2-3 GCDs.

The ones who are a problem are LOS trolls running RAT + perma major + 3-4 hots ticking + immobile pots - leave them alone in their towers / their rocks and go about ur business.

No game is fun were you die in 500 ms when it often comes down to lag/de sync etc, we need long TTK 5-10 seconds vs baddies and 60-90 s when two properly built players face eachother.

4v4 you need 2-5s kill times for it to be fast paced and reward moving as a grp and using assist trains.

Seems not many people in this community have played proper PvP/RvR games such as Ultima Online, Dark age of Camelot, Life is Feudal etc.

Silly silly community filled with whinging people who as soon as they get killed blame the game instead of using the tools available to them.

With that said NOT all whine threads are without merit or rediculous but this one borders it.

Have OP even thought about that for someone to stack 1) deadly cloak 2) vigor 3) burst heal 4) 2nd hot it only leaves a 5th slot for any kind of offense. Most likley that slot is also a heal of some kind or other utility skill.

Key then is to stun and catch the guy on his offensive bar and kill him on that one. While he turtles up he can't kill you. When he is trying to kill you he is super vulnerable. If you have mitigation on your offensive bar you SCISSOR ROCK him hard. He will die before you do in a dps race.

JAwtunes

OP is clearly correct, no discussion is needed here. Please close thread ZOS.

EL3ZD33

That’s why DKs are so powerful right now. They’re main offensive move is tied into their defence and resource sustain/burst heal as well as having the ability to cc the target and close the distance. It’s quite difficult to deal with actually as against a dk you almost entirely always need to be at full health which leads into a lot of defence.

This is really the only issue I have right now because it is false defence, there is just so much utility tied into the offence that being any other class vs a dk is rough and as dk you are effective enough to not worry about defence. As the damage and healing and resource save that you have tied to leap is quite substantial. Like a 25k tooltip Undo.

It’s not things like a guy with a 3 second half assed bubble.

Solariken

Yeah most honest players agree this set is way overtuned, but I'm sure ZOS will keep it that way to help sell that piece of crap PvE DLC.

IMO replace the major protection with Minor Evasion for same the duration of the Major Evasion and maybe offer a slight cost reduction on Blade Cloak.

SoixanteNeuf

idk wrote: »

The set bonus provides two things.

• 129 Stamina recovery, hardly enough to bump the stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus. which seems to be what OP is suggesting.
• Major Protection for three seconds which costs 2800 stamina in medium armor.

That is the set bonus for the weapon named in the title, seemingly the focus for the thread.

What you get running any other DW set and temporal guard's

• major expedition for 4 seconds, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

It seems OP is discussing that they do not like the DW weapon line and a very specific ultimate as most of the list has nothing to do with the set bonus for the special weapon OP mentioned in the title.

Further, does Temporal Guard provide Minor Protection when it is not on the active bar? I have not used it myself but that type of passive tends to require the skill to be on the active bar. If that is the case then it is irrelevant to be brought into the list.

I am not suggesting the set bonus is good or bad, just that the picture painted is very misleading and as such would not lead to a constructive conversation.

It wasn't intentionally misleading, it was to highlight that adding on demand major protection on top of an already utility dense skill like quick cloak is one of the few remaining things that qualifies as overperforming "cheese", like bombard/vamp drain.

Its power comes from how major protection stacks on the backbar with minor protection from temporal guard plus potential bloodspawn/troll king proc(assuming 20-30k armor : ~25%+30%+8% = ~63% damage reduction on top of vigor/3rd party heals) and major expedition/major evasion while healing yourself and kiting - all within 1 gcd. Add the ability to proc escapist poison from the blade cloak dot and we have ourselves a problem.

Comparatively, there's no other pvp backbar set (masters/vAS/vBRP) that comes close to vBRP DW after the master's staff nerf - and that certainly didn't come with a line of extra spell damage.

Jabbs_Giggity

Currently, there are multiple sets that offer major protection:
Daedric Trickery, Ironblood, Coward's Gear, Perfect Spectral Cloak, Pirate Skeleton, Spectral Cloak, Steadfast Hero

Also, the Necro's Deaden Pain offers on demand Major Protection + additional 3% damage reduction for slotting it. This is a class non-ult skill...Should this be nerfed too?

xWarbrain

What if I told you there were ways to counter this backbar ability set to render it useless.

L2P.

xylena

Holding SnB block for 3 seconds gives you more mitigation for less cost, doesn't require using up a GCD, and you get another 3k resists (and another 5% damage reduction if it's 2pc Potentates). You sacrifice mobility, which doesn't matter if you're not relying on kiting or LoS tactics. You also sacrifice damage reduction on DoTs, but that's irrelevant after all the DoT nerfs.

Not saying on-demand Major Protection isn't arguably bad for the game, just that nerfing it wouldn't put the slightest dent in the Tank Meta, nor would it suddenly make offensive back bar options viable again. Un-nerf DoTs and you'd already see a lot of people dropping BRP DW for Master DW or Master Bow.

MentalxHammer

JAwtunes wrote: »

OP is clearly correct, no discussion is needed here. Please close thread ZOS.

Agree, nerf it to the ground.

MentalxHammer

xWarbrain wrote: »

What if I told you there were ways to counter this backbar ability set to render it useless.

L2P.

Bro you sound like an idiot

Qbiken

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Currently, there are multiple sets that offer major protection:
Daedric Trickery, Ironblood, Coward's Gear, Perfect Spectral Cloak, Pirate Skeleton, Spectral Cloak, Steadfast Hero

Also, the Necro's Deaden Pain offers on demand Major Protection + additional 3% damage reduction for slotting it. This is a class non-ult skill...Should this be nerfed too?

Actually yes, major protection should be ultimate exclusive.

xWarbrain

MentalxHammer wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

What if I told you there were ways to counter this backbar ability set to render it useless.

L2P.

Bro you sound like an idiot

I sound like an idiot because I have no issue fighting people that use BRP DW, or I sound like an idiot because people complaining about items and abilities on the forums instead of getting better at the game and learning how to counter things irritates me?

If you can't kill someone that uses BRP DW and Temporal Guard, and you consider yourself a DPS/DD, you're doing it wrong. It's not that the combination is "OP", you're just fighting someone who is outplaying you. It happens.

When I fight someone who is using a combination of items & abilities that ultimately win them the fight, I have two options:

1. I can get better (L2P) and try again

OR

2. Accept that they are better than me in that matchup.

All I'm saying is that there are tools at your disposal already in the game that you could make use of instead of needing to have the game changed to suit your skill level.

SoixanteNeuf

xWarbrain wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

What if I told you there were ways to counter this backbar ability set to render it useless.

L2P.

Bro you sound like an idiot

I sound like an idiot because I have no issue fighting people that use BRP DW, or I sound like an idiot because people complaining about items and abilities on the forums instead of getting better at the game and learning how to counter things irritates me?

If you can't kill someone that uses BRP DW and Temporal Guard, and you consider yourself a DPS/DD, you're doing it wrong. It's not that the combination is "OP", you're just fighting someone who is outplaying you. It happens.

When I fight someone who is using a combination of items & abilities that ultimately win them the fight, I have two options:

1. I can get better (L2P) and try again

OR

2. Accept that they are better than me in that matchup.

All I'm saying is that there are tools at your disposal already in the game that you could make use of instead of needing to have the game changed to suit your skill level.

Don't raise your voice, improve your argument.

xWarbrain

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

"hurr durr I can kill ppl with brp dw, you must be bad. L2P noob".

Actually sums it up nicely. My argument is literally that you should get better at the game, not ask for adjustments because you have a hard time against a specific build.

idk

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The set bonus provides two things.

• 129 Stamina recovery, hardly enough to bump the stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus. which seems to be what OP is suggesting.
• Major Protection for three seconds which costs 2800 stamina in medium armor.

That is the set bonus for the weapon named in the title, seemingly the focus for the thread.

What you get running any other DW set and temporal guard's

• major expedition for 4 seconds, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

It seems OP is discussing that they do not like the DW weapon line and a very specific ultimate as most of the list has nothing to do with the set bonus for the special weapon OP mentioned in the title.

Further, does Temporal Guard provide Minor Protection when it is not on the active bar? I have not used it myself but that type of passive tends to require the skill to be on the active bar. If that is the case then it is irrelevant to be brought into the list.

I am not suggesting the set bonus is good or bad, just that the picture painted is very misleading and as such would not lead to a constructive conversation.

. . . stacks on the backbar with minor protection from temporal guard . . .

You say you are not intentionally misleading but here again you make a less than accurate statement. We do not gain Minor Protection from having Temporal Guard on the back bar. We only gain that buff while that ultimate is on the active bar which is not the back bar.
Further, you now bring up if they are using Bloodspawn. A monster set that has a 6% proc chance. Not a very reliable uptime unless the fight is dragging on. Not to forget you are also adding that they happen to have a healer nearby.

Regardless intentional or not the comments are misleading and continue to be so.

SoixanteNeuf

idk wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The set bonus provides two things.

• 129 Stamina recovery, hardly enough to bump the stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus. which seems to be what OP is suggesting.
• Major Protection for three seconds which costs 2800 stamina in medium armor.

That is the set bonus for the weapon named in the title, seemingly the focus for the thread.

What you get running any other DW set and temporal guard's

• major expedition for 4 seconds, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

It seems OP is discussing that they do not like the DW weapon line and a very specific ultimate as most of the list has nothing to do with the set bonus for the special weapon OP mentioned in the title.

Further, does Temporal Guard provide Minor Protection when it is not on the active bar? I have not used it myself but that type of passive tends to require the skill to be on the active bar. If that is the case then it is irrelevant to be brought into the list.

I am not suggesting the set bonus is good or bad, just that the picture painted is very misleading and as such would not lead to a constructive conversation.

. . . stacks on the backbar with minor protection from temporal guard . . .

You say you are not intentionally misleading but here again you make a less than accurate statement. We do not gain Minor Protection from having Temporal Guard on the back bar. We only gain that buff while that ultimate is on the active bar which is not the back bar.
Further, you now bring up if they are using Bloodspawn. A monster set that has a 6% proc chance. Not a very reliable uptime unless the fight is dragging on. Not to forget you are also adding that they happen to have a healer nearby.

Regardless intentional or not the comments are misleading and continue to be so.

You'll be on your backbar when you're kiting - where temporal guard is. If you put temporal guard on your front bar, good luck to you. I also stated potential bloodspawn/troll king proc in a follow up post. All of this was to illustrate a worst-case scenario and I clearly stated the variables.

Careful about being blind to the implied obvious twice in a row, the third strike isn't far away.

xWarbrain wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

"hurr durr I can kill ppl with brp dw, you must be bad. L2P noob".

Actually sums it up nicely. My argument is literally that you should get better at the game, not ask for adjustments because you have a hard time against a specific build.

You're legitimizing a contextual case where "War" can be replaced with "Small" or "Smooth". Keep going.

MentalxHammer

xWarbrain wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

What if I told you there were ways to counter this backbar ability set to render it useless.

L2P.

Bro you sound like an idiot

I sound like an idiot because I have no issue fighting people that use BRP DW, or I sound like an idiot because people complaining about items and abilities on the forums instead of getting better at the game and learning how to counter things irritates me?

If you can't kill someone that uses BRP DW and Temporal Guard, and you consider yourself a DPS/DD, you're doing it wrong. It's not that the combination is "OP", you're just fighting someone who is outplaying you. It happens.

When I fight someone who is using a combination of items & abilities that ultimately win them the fight, I have two options:

1. I can get better (L2P) and try again

OR

2. Accept that they are better than me in that matchup.

All I'm saying is that there are tools at your disposal already in the game that you could make use of instead of needing to have the game changed to suit your skill level.

Sry to be a *** was in a bad mood earlier

idk

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The set bonus provides two things.

• 129 Stamina recovery, hardly enough to bump the stat density beyond that of a 5 piece set bonus. which seems to be what OP is suggesting.
• Major Protection for three seconds which costs 2800 stamina in medium armor.

That is the set bonus for the weapon named in the title, seemingly the focus for the thread.

What you get running any other DW set and temporal guard's

• major expedition for 4 seconds, coinciding with vigor's timeframe - making kiting away in an almost snareless meta as easy as pressing roll dodge and running.
• gives major evasion for 14 seconds.
• does damage and procs poisons and glyphs while on your front bar, saving you the need to waste 1 gcd on a backbar dot rotation - poisons allow you to run 2x defensive traits and escapist poisons.
• backbar temporal guard's minor protection stacks with the major protection.
• exists while pirate skeleton was acknowledged as a problem.

It seems OP is discussing that they do not like the DW weapon line and a very specific ultimate as most of the list has nothing to do with the set bonus for the special weapon OP mentioned in the title.

Further, does Temporal Guard provide Minor Protection when it is not on the active bar? I have not used it myself but that type of passive tends to require the skill to be on the active bar. If that is the case then it is irrelevant to be brought into the list.

I am not suggesting the set bonus is good or bad, just that the picture painted is very misleading and as such would not lead to a constructive conversation.

. . . stacks on the backbar with minor protection from temporal guard . . .

You say you are not intentionally misleading but here again you make a less than accurate statement. We do not gain Minor Protection from having Temporal Guard on the back bar. We only gain that buff while that ultimate is on the active bar which is not the back bar.
Further, you now bring up if they are using Bloodspawn. A monster set that has a 6% proc chance. Not a very reliable uptime unless the fight is dragging on. Not to forget you are also adding that they happen to have a healer nearby.

Regardless intentional or not the comments are misleading and continue to be so.

You'll be on your backbar when you're kiting - where temporal guard is. If you put temporal guard on your front bar, good luck to you. I also stated potential bloodspawn/troll king proc in a follow up post. All of this was to illustrate a worst-case scenario and I clearly stated the variables.

Careful about being blind to the implied obvious twice in a row, the third strike isn't far away.

Lets be real. If they are kiting you while fighting they are not on that back bar.

Besides clouding the situation by tossing all this extra stuff into the picture you are creating an extreme one off scenario where everything possible is procing at the same time they are getting healed. It would be absurd to consider changing skills for such extremely specific and rare situations. Heck, if it were not for the title and one other sentence in the OP it would seem you are asking for half the game to be nerfed.

xWarbrain

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

You're legitimizing a contextual case where "War" can be replaced with "Small" or "Smooth". Keep going.

Nice. Good one. I will.

The misleading "worst-case scenario" you describe is basically just a tanky DPS that isn't going to kill anyone because he's too busy on his back bar spamming Quick Cloak for Major Protection and probably running around a tree while hoping his Troll King/Bloodspawn helps mitigate your - I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just guess - Twilight Matriarch pet damage. While doing this he has two-second windows to swap bars and cast 2 abilities before needing to swap back and Quick Cloak again. This is YOUR worst case scenario. This is what YOU are having trouble fighting against.

If you play on Xbox I could show you how a decent (nah I suck) player can overcome this minor annoyance. Otherwise, maybe you'll get your wish and it'll get nerfed into something useless, like what you suggested. Then you can complain about the next thing you come up against and can't beat and get that nerfed too.

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Sry to be a *** was in a bad mood earlier

This post is awesome and no worries.

idk

Heatnix90 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You say you are not intentionally misleading but here again you make a less than accurate statement. We do not gain Minor Protection from having Temporal Guard on the back bar. We only gain that buff while that ultimate is on the active bar which is not the back bar.
Further, you now bring up if they are using Bloodspawn. A monster set that has a 6% proc chance. Not a very reliable uptime unless the fight is dragging on. Not to forget you are also adding that they happen to have a healer nearby.

Regardless intentional or not the comments are misleading and continue to be so.

Common sense dictates that if you're repositioning during an encounter, you'd be best served by repositioning with your defensive bar. Ergo, common sense also dictates that Temporal Guard is going to be on said bar providing Minor Protection

That same common sense would suggest that the few moments on the back bar, the low chance for 6% set bonus to proc just at the right time and everything else to come together are very much a one off.

OP is tossing all this extra stuff including specific rare chances, in a one off situation to make it appear a single 2 pc set bonus if the real issue.

My point has been that is you want to discuss the performance of a set bonus, a very expensive access to a very short duration of major protection, do not cloud the issue. Speak strait.

Thanks for your input.

SoixanteNeuf

idk wrote: »

That same common sense would suggest that the few moments on the back bar, the low chance for 6% set bonus to proc just at the right time and everything else to come together are very much a one off.

OP is tossing all this extra stuff including specific rare chances, in a one off situation to make it appear a single 2 pc set bonus if the real issue.

My point has been that is you want to discuss the performance of a set bonus, a very expensive access to a very short duration of major protection, do not cloud the issue. Speak strait.

Thanks for your input.

You're misleading people in your argument when you say it's a very expensive access to a very short duration of major protection. It's not expensive when you gain major evasion for 14 secs, major expedition for 4 seconds and a 5 meter dot aura that can proc poisons for 14 secs on top of 3 seconds of major protection.

You're also misleading people when you suggest that bloodspawn/tk procs are rare when you're kiting and taking damage - most seasoned pvpers use bloodspawn for a reason. Also you're suggesting that someone wouldn't be on their backbar while kiting, where temporal guard is.

My point was to illustrate why vBRP dual wield overperforms defensively when someone is kiting. In an almost snareless meta with weak dots, major protection's ability to mitigate direct damage within vigor's healing timeframe is one of the most effective form of mitigation.

Thanks for your input.

[Edit to remove bait]

xylena

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

My point was to illustrate why vBRP dual wield overperforms defensively when someone is kiting. In an almost snareless meta with weak dots, major protection's ability to mitigate direct damage within vigor's healing timeframe is one of the most effective form of mitigation. I'm speaking straight, you just don't get it.

Why target BRP DW for nerfs over SnB Block or BRP Resto or Pariah Set? There's a lot of factors feeding into the Tank Meta, and a lot of ways to be braindead tanky. BRP DW is powerful, but it wasn't even that popular until Master DW Bleed was destroyed by nerfs. Undoing the awful nerfs to DoTs, Bleeds, and Defiles should come first.

SoixanteNeuf

Mobility is more useful to a stam DPS than SnB is because avoiding damage > absorbing damage in medium armor.

If someone's intentionally absorbing damage, they're a tank. Also fyi, they can run vBRP DW in heavy as well, giving tanks on demand access to major evasion and major protection before switching back to their main SnB "block" bar.

Kahnak

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That same common sense would suggest that the few moments on the back bar, the low chance for 6% set bonus to proc just at the right time and everything else to come together are very much a one off.

OP is tossing all this extra stuff including specific rare chances, in a one off situation to make it appear a single 2 pc set bonus if the real issue.

My point has been that is you want to discuss the performance of a set bonus, a very expensive access to a very short duration of major protection, do not cloud the issue. Speak strait.

Thanks for your input.

You're misleading people in your argument when you say it's a very expensive access to a very short duration of major protection. It's not expensive when you gain major evasion for 14 secs, major expedition for 4 seconds and a 5 meter dot aura that can proc poisons for 14 secs on top of 3 seconds of major protection.

You're also misleading people when you suggest that bloodspawn/tk procs are rare when you're kiting and taking damage - most seasoned pvpers use bloodspawn for a reason. Also you're suggesting that someone wouldn't be on their backbar while kiting, where temporal guard is.

My point was to illustrate why vBRP dual wield overperforms defensively when someone is kiting. In an almost snareless meta with weak dots, major protection's ability to mitigate direct damage within vigor's healing timeframe is one of the most effective form of mitigation.

Thanks for your input.

These buffs are not all coming from the set - they are coming from other abilities. It is misleading to insinuate that all of these buffs are the result of using BRP dual wield, because they are not.

6% is 6%, which is relatively rare in almost any practical situation. It is not misleading to suggest that it is. Suggesting that everyone is going to have temporal guard on the back bar with the exact same gear setup is AT BEST painting an incomplete picture in favor of your argument and at worst, deliberately misleading.

WrathOfInnos

I think there’s one significant piece of this puzzle that has not been mentioned specifically. Running BRP dual wield back bar requires you to have DUAL WIELD as your back bar. I know this seems obvious, but the opportunity cost of using the BRP set is not just 2 set slots, it means no bow back bar for stamina damage builds, no Resto back bar for tanky builds, no 2h back bar for higher weapon damage. There’s really nothing else in the DW skill line that’s useful, so you have to give up an entire weapon skill line just to use Blade Cloak.

SoixanteNeuf

@idk I think the major source of confusion for you is that you're forgetting how the "density" of backbar sets are derived. Backbar sets derive their utility from being able to complement front bar sets, which give little or zero utility on their back bar. Sets like Spinners/Spriggans/Automaton or sometimes vice versa like Lich or sets that carry penalties like New Moon - sets which have little reason being on both bars.

A majority of the existing useful backbar sets like Potentates and Masters Bow(rip Masters staff) don't carry an extra set line, like stamina regen - I was using that as a baseline given how useful vBRP dw is. That's how they were initially balanced, by complementing an offensive front bar set with an ability augmenting utility. What brings vBRP's density above those other backbar sets is the extra stam line of regen - it's an outlier. It's also why I mentioned vBRP from the start and not BRP.

The other reason why I brought in all the other buffs that Quick Cloak gives is to underline my point : If you augment an already incredibly utility dense skill with Major Protection in an almost snareless meta where dots are weak and the real source of damage is direct being able to maximize the effectiveness of your vigor heals is incredibly powerful.

Temporal guard and bloodspawn are very common in PvP for what they do and that's the primary reason I included them in the first place.