Drain Stun Vampire OP

WoppaBoem · December 2019

Sneakers wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

Sneakers wrote: »

Some other poster mentioned he uses toppling charge on his stamtemplar..I mean that comparison is almost insulting. One cannot compare the *** totem to toppling charge and keep a straight face

I can very much keep a straight face, as it is exact the same conclusion you make, its about utility not about damage. I did not design the classes and please avoid all classes to be the same. It is a good comparison that these type of CC skills are about utility, current the high damage is out of order and needs addressed and its costs.

khajiitNPC · December 2019

I’m not defending it — I love it. For obvious reasons. Weapon bar swap animation cancel and literally most people don’t know it’s hit them. It’s awesome.

sly007 · December 2019

Sneakers wrote: »

It is a channeled DoT guys. It has to do damage equal or compareable to a spammable or else people will simply never let it run its damage component.

My necro (with 15% class dot dmg + 10% from thaurma tool) tip unbuffed is like 6k at 0.7s.

DPS is then ~ 7800
12 meter range
channeled
fears for 3s

In comparison my Force pulse hits for 11k
My richochte skull 9k
My elemental weapon 9k + LA dmg (13k?)

The damage is not OP at all. It is considering things balanced.

Basically only wardens and necros use it since they lack a class CC worth its name.
Give them a class CC to pick over vamp drain and the problem is solved, without nerfing or ZOS trying to solve the server -> client de synchs in Cyro (never gonna happen game is basically 1 threaded and de synchs will happen with netcode in such an environment/engine).

I think the problem people have with the skill is the damage plus crowd control. Not just the damage. On top of the other two utilities is provides.

NyassaV · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I thought high damage stun where out of the game. Now every magwarden I encounter around 70% of all damage in my recap is from the vampire drain stun and the cherry on the cake that stun sometime just does not break. Really address the damage of this skill and how is interacts with break free. This skill is auto win in small scale situation and it should not be.

Thank you.

Vampire drain is the easiest skill to counter, just break free and the vamp will stay in the animation. Then you can just stun him

Actually it goes through block and dodge. Which mean's you literally can't counter it which doesn't make it the easiest skill to counter.

Somers23 · December 2019

Lol just bash them

Bullseyebudx · December 2019

I wasn't aware the stun went through block, I know if you're block flicking there's a very good chance you'll get stunned when you think you've actually blocked but I'm pretty certain, like 99% sure the stun can be blocked.

OP I thought you may have had a point so I went and did a few rough damage calculations just looking at tool tips, penetration, battle spirit, and resistances.

While the damage on this ability out performs most effects, when you compare damage over time, even surpassing some ultimate abilities, it still outputs significantly less damage compared to other execute abilities which actually makes sense.

Factor in not being able to weave it which means no weapon enchantments, poisons, or LA damage it under performs by about 11K actual applied damage ASSUMING you can cast 1 ability a second which seems pretty reasonable consider you might only need to cast a regular execute twice.

Its probably a little over 11K considering some of the other resource analysis I've done on CC's value come in around 10K-12K flat resource value seems to be what a stun is evaluated at by ZOS. What they don't factor in to their calculations is what happens when the game isn't working properly, and the damage disparity difference between being stunned taking extra damage and dealing less and your opponent dealing more damage and taking less which increases the resource difference.

They just assume everyone has a stun....and it'll all just balance itself out; which can actually happen eventually if everything is functioning perfectly.

Its actual cost is also comparable to other execute abilities but I do still think it should see a cost increase much like all the other CC's probably should so there's an inherent risk.

By the way if 70% of the damage in your death recap is from drain that means you either got hit with it twice or someone dropped a Colossus on you and held you with drain or your health and resistances are likely a little low for the current meta.

MizoreReyes · December 2019

Can someone test if you animation cancel vampire drain, could the enemy still interrupt it?

Ender1310 · December 2019

I died when trying to take on 10 pple at once? All I really am hearing. Please don’t nerf vamp skills

Somers23 · December 2019

MizoreReyes wrote: »

Can someone test if you animation cancel vampire drain, could the enemy still interrupt it?

If they did that, they would be just using it for the stun

Somers23 · December 2019

Nerf the only skill vampires can use for DMG it will be the best nerf so far. I'm looking forward to it. Time to kill people with mist form

usmcjdking · December 2019

I don't personally have an issue with anything about this skill OTHER than it is invisible if block cancelled and can be difficult to ascertain is even happening in the midst of combat due to the really poor quality of visuals in regards to the animation.

Somers23 · December 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

I don't personally have an issue with anything about this skill OTHER than it is invisible if block cancelled and can be difficult to ascertain is even happening in the midst of combat due to the really poor quality of visuals in regards to the animation.

It's a channel,if the caster blocks it is canceled. No more dmg should be done. The channel is transparent aswell.
The animation for the stun seems delayed. Seems like a single target fear to me

technohic · December 2019

It's the break free of it that's a problem.

Infectious1X · December 2019

Never thought I’d see this skill be complained about... sigh

Tommy_The_Gun · December 2019

Infectious1X wrote: »

Never thought I’d see this skill be complained about... sigh

I am not surpised... I mean we even had people complaining that light attacks are OP... and even "nerf jumping" threads... So nothing out of ordinary... lol

WoppaBoem · December 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Never thought I’d see this skill be complained about... sigh

I am not surpised... I mean we even had people complaining that light attacks are OP... and even "nerf jumping" threads... So nothing out of ordinary... lol

Both of you can make fun of the standard forum style asking for nerfs so funny. But really getting killed by this aint funny. As you can read trough this post. Almost invisible, hard to break free, very cheap, does a lot of damage for a stun (wardens and Necro use this right after deep fissure or Blast Bones very strong combo). If you encounter it and yes you will because its slowly becoming a thing you will feel this skill kills you without really knowing what is happening and how to counter because your stuck in breaking free. Nerf is appreciated, but in general a good look at this skill from the developers is at least whats needed.

Lord-Otto · December 2019

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Never thought I’d see this skill be complained about... sigh

I am not surpised... I mean we even had people complaining that light attacks are OP... and even "nerf jumping" threads... So nothing out of ordinary... lol

Both of you can make fun of the standard forum style asking for nerfs so funny. But really getting killed by this aint funny. As you can read trough this post. Almost invisible, hard to break free, very cheap, does a lot of damage for a stun (wardens and Necro use this right after deep fissure or Blast Bones very strong combo). If you encounter it and yes you will because its slowly becoming a thing you will feel this skill kills you without really knowing what is happening and how to counter because your stuck in breaking free. Nerf is appreciated, but in general a good look at this skill from the developers is at least whats needed.

Well, you know the combo already. Why don't you tap block then next time you're low health and see the combo being prepared?

HankTwo · December 2019

Imo, this skill should at the very least get a hefty cost increase. Its arguably too cheap for what it can potentially do. I just did some quick tests in shadowfen with accelerating drain on my magplar no CP PvP build wearing innate axiom (which doesn't boost this skill!) and bright troath. For me the skill does:

- 4.9k tooltip damage 5 times per cast = 24.5k tooltip (self buffed, without enchant proc tho). With crits I was able to realiably kill 31k health mobs with just one cast of this skill and nothing else.
- It heals for 16% of your max missing health 4 times per cast (dunno why its not 5 here) = 64% of my max missing health (I think the base skill without healing received modifiers would be 15/60%). Edit: it is indeed missing health. Interestingly, it seems like the skill only takes into account how much health you had missing the moment you cast it. Further changes in health don't seem to change the heals.
- It stuns through dodge roll at 12 meters range (fossilize for example only has 7 meters range). This applies on the first tick, so you can easily block cancel the skill and still get some damage, healing and the stun.
- It gives minor expedition for 20 seconds when the cast ends (full 3 seconds duration).

And all that for just 1679 magicka (in my case, vamp stage 4 and 5 pieces of light armor on altmer). Like wtf? For comparison, a single cast of crushing shock with the same stats would deal 2.4k * 3 = 7.2k damage for 2147 magicka. Therefore, 3 crushing shocks would deal 21.6k damage at a cost of 6441 magicka. Thats less damage than one cast of accelerating drain at almost 4 times the cost of magicka (yes, light attacks would increase the damage of crushing shock weaving significantly over accelerating drain, but the damage per cost argument still stands).

For what it does this skill should very well cost ~4k magicka at stage 4 vampire, if not even more. A cost increase would also discourage players to just mindlessly spam this skill (though it would still be incredible cost efficient if you use it for the whole 3 seconds duration).

Sneakers · December 2019

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, this skill should at the very least get a hefty cost increase. Its arguably too cheap for what it can potentially do. I just did some quick tests in shadowfen with accelerating drain on my magplar no CP PvP build wearing innate axiom (which doesn't boost this skill!) and bright troath. For me the skill does:

- 4.9k tooltip damage 5 times per cast = 24.5k tooltip (self buffed, without enchant proc tho). With crits I was able to realiably kill 31k health mobs with just one cast of this skill and nothing else.
- It heals for 16% of your max health 4 times per cast (dunno why its not 5 here) = 64% of my max health (I think the base skill without healing received modifiers would be 15/60%).
- It stuns through dodge roll at 12 meters range (fossilize for example only has 7 meters range). This applies on the first tick, so you can easily block cancel the skill and still get some damage, healing and the stun.
- It gives minor expedition for 20 seconds when the cast ends (full 3 seconds duration).

And all that for just 1679 magicka (in my case, vamp stage 4 and 5 pieces of light armor on altmer). Like wtf? For comparison, a single cast of crushing shock with the same stats would deal 2.4k * 3 = 7.2k damage for 2147 magicka. Therefore, 3 crushing shocks would deal 21.6k damage at a cost of 6441 magicka. Thats less damage than one cast of accelerating drain at almost 4 times the cost of magicka (yes, light attacks would increase the damage of crushing shock weaving significantly over accelerating drain, but the damage per cost argument still stands).

For what it does this skill should very well cost 4k+ magicka at stage 4 vampire, if not even more. A cost increase would also discourage players to just mindlessly spam this skill (though it would still be incredible cost efficient if you use it for the whole 3 seconds duration).

Sorry to say it but, all your calculactions are wrong.
It hits 4 (FOUR) times in its 3s channel. Just look at combat logs.

Also its damage is reasonable. And significantly lower then elemental weapon spam.

I personally only let it run on squishy ppl. If its a tankier target I block colossus + vamp drain block cancel into elemental weapon, way more dps.

Bullseyebudx · December 2019

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, this skill should at the very least get a hefty cost increase. Its arguably too cheap for what it can potentially do.

- It heals for 16% of your max health 4 times per cast (dunno why its not 5 here) = 64% of my max health (I think the base skill without healing received modifiers would be 15/60%).
- It stuns through dodge roll at 12 meters range (fossilize for example only has 7 meters range). This applies on the first tick, so you can easily block cancel the skill and still get some damage, healing and the stun.
- It gives minor expedition for 20 seconds when the cast ends (full 3 seconds duration).

And all that for just 1679 magicka (in my case, vamp stage 4 and 5 pieces of light armor on altmer). Like wtf? For comparison, a single cast of crushing shock with the same stats would deal 2.4k * 3 = 7.2k damage for 2147 magicka. Therefore, 3 crushing shocks would deal 21.6k damage at a cost of 6441 magicka. Thats less damage than one cast of accelerating drain at almost 4 times the cost of magicka (yes, light attacks would increase the damage of crushing shock weaving significantly over accelerating drain, but the damage per cost argument still stands).

For what it does this skill should very well cost 4k+ magicka at stage 4 vampire, if not even more. A cost increase would also discourage players to just mindlessly spam this skill (though it would still be incredible cost efficient if you use it for the whole 3 seconds duration).

The ability heals for 16% of your missing health not your max health very big difference, since it become progressively less effective.

It can stun off dodge roll if the ability isn't dodged but so can a lot of abilities.

It can give minor expedition, but only if you fully complete the channel, so if your target dies in 2 seconds or you're interrupted you don't get the expedition.

I think 4K mag is a little too steep IMO but 2.2K-2.4K after cost reduction and 3.2K-3.4K before would seem appropriate.

Comparing this ability, or any, to fossilize is crazy.
Unblockable, Undodgeble, CC, Snare, and Damage for 4K before cost reduction is out of this world, the two abilities arent even on the same planet.

HankTwo · December 2019

Sneakers wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, this skill should at the very least get a hefty cost increase. Its arguably too cheap for what it can potentially do. I just did some quick tests in shadowfen with accelerating drain on my magplar no CP PvP build wearing innate axiom (which doesn't boost this skill!) and bright troath. For me the skill does:

- 4.9k tooltip damage 5 times per cast = 24.5k tooltip (self buffed, without enchant proc tho). With crits I was able to realiably kill 31k health mobs with just one cast of this skill and nothing else.
- It heals for 16% of your max health 4 times per cast (dunno why its not 5 here) = 64% of my max health (I think the base skill without healing received modifiers would be 15/60%).
- It stuns through dodge roll at 12 meters range (fossilize for example only has 7 meters range). This applies on the first tick, so you can easily block cancel the skill and still get some damage, healing and the stun.
- It gives minor expedition for 20 seconds when the cast ends (full 3 seconds duration).

And all that for just 1679 magicka (in my case, vamp stage 4 and 5 pieces of light armor on altmer). Like wtf? For comparison, a single cast of crushing shock with the same stats would deal 2.4k * 3 = 7.2k damage for 2147 magicka. Therefore, 3 crushing shocks would deal 21.6k damage at a cost of 6441 magicka. Thats less damage than one cast of accelerating drain at almost 4 times the cost of magicka (yes, light attacks would increase the damage of crushing shock weaving significantly over accelerating drain, but the damage per cost argument still stands).

For what it does this skill should very well cost 4k+ magicka at stage 4 vampire, if not even more. A cost increase would also discourage players to just mindlessly spam this skill (though it would still be incredible cost efficient if you use it for the whole 3 seconds duration).

Sorry to say it but, all your calculactions are wrong.
It hits 4 (FOUR) times in its 3s channel. Just look at combat logs.

Also its damage is reasonable. And significantly lower then elemental weapon spam.

I personally only let it run on squishy ppl. If its a tankier target I block colossus + vamp drain block cancel into elemental weapon, way more dps.

Nope, I tested it again and its 5 ticks. If this is a bug that doesn't always occur I don't know. But I tested it multiple times against enemies and it definitely did hit 5 times per cast every single time.

As definitive proof: I just slotted it on my resto staff and didn't buff up. Against normal mobs it did non crit 4299 damage and crit 6965 damage per tick. However, I was able to kill a 31364 health enemy with a single cast. This is literally impossible if the skill only hits 4 times (6965 * 4 = 27860 damage).

Kel · December 2019

The damage is fine.
The health return is fine.

The wonky break free mechanic IS NOT fine.

The number of times I've been hit with this ability with a full stamina bar, and not able to break free from it is unreal.
It's not "players don't know what's affecting them", it's literally a broken CC mechanic not letting them break free.

It doesn't need a nerf, but it most certainly needs fixed. There's a reason you're seeing this everywhere now, and it's not the damage it does. It's an unblockable, undodgeable, broken CC that you are very lucky to break free of.

iCaliban · December 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I thought high damage stun where out of the game. Now every magwarden I encounter around 70% of all damage in my recap is from the vampire drain stun and the cherry on the cake that stun sometime just does not break. Really address the damage of this skill and how is interacts with break free. This skill is auto win in small scale situation and it should not be.

Thank you.

Vampire drain is the easiest skill to counter, just break free and the vamp will stay in the animation. Then you can just stun him

Actually it goes through block and dodge. Which mean's you literally can't counter it which doesn't make it the easiest skill to counter.

It doesnt go through block. The stun is 100% blockable.

HankTwo · December 2019

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, this skill should at the very least get a hefty cost increase. Its arguably too cheap for what it can potentially do.

- It heals for 16% of your max health 4 times per cast (dunno why its not 5 here) = 64% of my max health (I think the base skill without healing received modifiers would be 15/60%).
- It stuns through dodge roll at 12 meters range (fossilize for example only has 7 meters range). This applies on the first tick, so you can easily block cancel the skill and still get some damage, healing and the stun.
- It gives minor expedition for 20 seconds when the cast ends (full 3 seconds duration).

And all that for just 1679 magicka (in my case, vamp stage 4 and 5 pieces of light armor on altmer). Like wtf? For comparison, a single cast of crushing shock with the same stats would deal 2.4k * 3 = 7.2k damage for 2147 magicka. Therefore, 3 crushing shocks would deal 21.6k damage at a cost of 6441 magicka. Thats less damage than one cast of accelerating drain at almost 4 times the cost of magicka (yes, light attacks would increase the damage of crushing shock weaving significantly over accelerating drain, but the damage per cost argument still stands).

For what it does this skill should very well cost 4k+ magicka at stage 4 vampire, if not even more. A cost increase would also discourage players to just mindlessly spam this skill (though it would still be incredible cost efficient if you use it for the whole 3 seconds duration).

The ability heals for 16% of your missing health not your max health very big difference, since it become progressively less effective.

It can stun off dodge roll if the ability isn't dodged but so can a lot of abilities.

It can give minor expedition, but only if you fully complete the channel, so if your target dies in 2 seconds or you're interrupted you don't get the expedition.

I think 4K mag is a little too steep IMO but 2.2K-2.4K after cost reduction and 3.2K-3.4K before would seem appropriate.

Comparing this ability, or any, to fossilize is crazy.
Unblockable, Undodgeble, CC, Snare, and Damage for 4K before cost reduction is out of this world, the two abilities arent even on the same planet.

It is indeed missing health. My bad, I corrected it. However, I don't really understand what you mean by 'It can stun... if the ability isn't dodged'. As far as I can tell this ability can't be dodged at all and the stun pulls you out of your dodge roll.

Btw, I already mentioned that you get the minor expedition only if the whole cast ends, so not sure why you bring that up.

The comparison with fossilize makes sense to me, since it is the only other single target cc that goes through roll dodge. Also, fossilize doesn't snare, not sure where you got that idea. If we compare these 2 abilities fossilize has the following advantages over vampire drain:
- stuns not only through dodge, but also through block
- immobilizes after the stun ends
- restores 990 stamina and generates 3 ult. However, keep in mind that this is because of class passives.

while vamp drain has the following advantages over fossilize:
- costs less than half the magicka at stage 4
- has ~71.4% more range
- deals ~11.4% more damage if canceled immediately, and ~122.7% more damage if canceled after the second tick, which would still be within one GCD.
- Heals for at least 16% of your missing health.
- Can be used for the whole 3s duration if you have cc immunity and want to preserve some resources for ok damage and healing at a ridiculously low cost (for 3 seconds of effect). Edit: and gives minor expedition for 20 seconds in this case.

Also, I would argue that having the best CC ingame is part of the class identity of DK. Not sure if a generic skill that is available to any class should be this strong for the cost (thats my main argument, the cost efficiency!).

The Uninvited · December 2019

Kel wrote: »

The damage is fine.
The health return is fine.

The wonky break free mechanic IS NOT fine.

The number of times I've been hit with this ability with a full stamina bar, and not able to break free from it is unreal.
It's not "players don't know what's affecting them", it's literally a broken CC mechanic not letting them break free.

It doesn't need a nerf, but it most certainly needs fixed. There's a reason you're seeing this everywhere now, and it's not the damage it does. It's an unblockable, undodgeable, broken CC that you are very lucky to break free of.

Absolutely spot on, the only thing that needs fixing is break free.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

So this no counterplay stun also hits my 35k spell resist Dk for more than 6k damage..

Aaaaand everyone using it comes rushing in this threat saying its completely fine , absolutely nothing wrong with it , right lads?

Bullseyebudx · December 2019

HankTwo wrote: »

It is indeed missing health. My bad, I corrected it. However, I don't really understand what you mean by 'It can stun... if the ability isn't dodged'. As far as I can tell this ability can't be dodged at all and the stun pulls you out of your dodge roll.

Btw, I already mentioned that you get the minor expedition only if the whole cast ends, so not sure why you bring that up.

The comparison with fossilize makes sense to me, since it is the only other single target cc that goes through roll dodge. Also, fossilize doesn't snare, not sure where you got that idea. If we compare these 2 abilities fossilize has the following advantages over vampire drain:
- stuns not only through dodge, but also through block
- immobilizes after the stun ends
- restores 990 stamina and generates 3 ult. However, keep in mind that this is because of class passives.

while vamp drain has the following advantages over fossilize:
- costs less than half the magicka at stage 4
- has ~71.4% more range
- deals ~11.4% more damage if canceled immediately, and ~122.7% more damage if canceled after the second tick, which would still be within one GCD.
- Heals for at least 16% of your missing health.
- Can be used for the whole 3s duration if you have cc immunity and want to preserve some resources for ok damage and healing at a ridiculously low cost (for 3 seconds of effect). Edit: and gives minor expedition for 20 seconds in this case.

Also, I would argue that having the best CC ingame is part of the class identity of DK. Not sure if a generic skill that is available to any class should be this strong for the cost (thats my main argument, the cost efficiency!).

I thought it was max health too the first time I read it, and then I started using it and couldn't make the math work out when I'd die.

The only reason I brought up the minor expedition was because of the way you phrased it, made it sound like it was more likely to happen than not but I almost never get the minor expedition and even when I do it's like okay that's nice. If you removed the minor expedition no one would probably notice, but when there's an effect like that on an ability I typically consider it non existent and it looks like you almost did too.

I'm bad about not using the specific terminology, snare vs. immobilize vs. root, they all require either dodge roll or break free to clear which costs stamina so I use the terms interchangeably because I don't personally see a difference between them and if there is it's negligible.

I think we both agree there's probably a cost discrepancy with the ability.

I value an ability that's unblockable and undodgable significantly more I think than you might.

I also think we both value the costs of being able to use drain differently; the actual cost, you can be interrupted and set off balance, but specifically the static risk that comes with it too, 100% up time on basically major vulnerability to flame damage, 100% up time on 50% reduced health recovery, but also losing the flexibility of being able to use other abilities fluidly in a combo.

I don't think the damage reduction below 50% health, and added recovery, off-sets these downsides. It's nice but.

Maybe I need more practice but drain isn't very easy to animation cancel and weave in another ability it's pretty clunky because it's a channel ability.

I don't think being a DK and using fossilize comes with comparable downsides to that of being a vampire and using accelerating drain which is why I'm on the low side of the cost.

albertberku · December 2019

I agree that is too good. My solution: 7m range instead of stupid 12m. For that stun 12m is the main problem, it is way too much.

Bullseyebudx · December 2019

albertberku wrote: »

I agree that is too good. My solution: 7m range instead of stupid 12m. For that stun 12m is the main problem, it is way too much.

7m range is stoopid, too short; need 12m range kill noob running away

chrightt · December 2019

Yeah, it definitely is over performing especially with the buggy debuff. In a time where other easily accessible hard CC like flame clench is garbage, vamp drain is really strong (especially cause it offers ultimate or minor expedition too). Too bad the forums right now is just a bunch of “stop calling for nerfs, we know better than everyone else that nerfs is ALWAYS unhealthy”. Let’s just do hearthstone tier power creep why don’t we. If only all issues could be solved by buffs.