Should dark deal, pet summons or any abilities with a cast time have better universal gameplay

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Hi everyone, im a pet sorc main of 4 years plus. I love this game. My focus is to provide awareness in the issues I see day to day playing the game. Over the years I have seen many many abilities adjustments. However I have never seen the element of gameplay that is most important and most forgotten. That is UNIVERSAL COUNTER GAMEPLAY. It is my belief that ALL CAST TIME ABILITIES SHOULD BE BUFF AND ALL CAST TIME ABILITIES SHOULD HAVE A MUCH GREATER UNIVERSAL GLOBAL COOLDOWN. The universal counter play in eso is Extremely unbalanced in pvp. There simply should be better reward for interruptions of cast time abilities. I would like to see a global cooldown of 4 seconds. Furthermore more in some cast times cases I would like to see a abilities increase in efficiency.

ChunkyCat · December 2019

sure

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Finally the community gets the vision and issue and guidance I'm trying to achieve. Let's work together to make eso great again
Thank you

idk · December 2019

Considering how overly general the OP statement is I am not sure what they are suggesting. We do not have many skills with an actual cast time outside of Ultimates and it is very hard to cast an ultimate less than 4 seconds after the last ultimate cast.

Maybe provide some actual information if you want some feedback one way or another.

JCM, great clip.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Simple feed back. Every dev team in my opinion has look at a issue the same. Balance abilities equal balancing gameplay.
This is true to a degree however the fundamental of the games foundation is not balance. So how can you balance abilities? It is a massive advantage to spam in this game despite counter gameplay. A simple example of the is dark deal. A opponent trying to counter play dark deal is most likely going to burn tho there stam to bash the dark deal. That the user spamming dark deal. The reward for property counter gameplay is low. Taken skill out of the game and rewarding spamming as a clutch. Fundamentals of gameplay rewards spamming vs timing of skill counter gameplay. THIS IS TRUE ACROSS ALL ABILITIES. THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN OR COUNTER PLAY SYSTEM. IS EXTREMELY LOW AT A SECOND. All abilities should have at least a 3 sec cooldown.
Which in return should be the foundation at abilities balance. Eso fundamental is not balance

idk · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All abilities should have at least a 3 sec cooldown.
Which in return should be the foundation at abilities balance. Eso fundamental is not balance

[snip] Zos has specifically said on multipole occasions including before this game came out that that it is about sustain because they did not want it to be about cooldowns for skills.

In other words Zos has already said no to your idea in a very loud voice.

Not to leave out pretty much most of the player base would disagree. Probably why no one is agreeing with you and this thread lacks life.

Edit for bait.

jcm2606 · December 2019

idk wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All abilities should have at least a 3 sec cooldown.
Which in return should be the foundation at abilities balance. Eso fundamental is not balance

Not to leave out pretty much most of the player base would disagree. Probably why no one is agreeing with you and this thread lacks life.

This precisely. The entire reason why I've stuck with ESO so long (until recently, which I'll get into) is because there is no other MMO with a combat system like it.

I cannot stand games with combat systems that revolve around cooldowns to balance skills. In my experience, cooldowns result in a clunky and unresponsive mess of an experience that offers next to no player agency, and actively hurts immersion. Rather than focusing on what I'm fighting, I'm instead having to focus on my action bar to check if my attacks have come off cooldown, and to check if my utility skills are off cooldown in case I need to use them.

In contrast, an action-styled combat system like ESO's solves basically all of these points, while honestly delivering a much deeper character building experience.

In my experience, action-styled combat systems naturally result in a fluid and responsive experience, that offers a healthy amount of player agency and immersion. As long as my character is built to sustain itself, my full attention can be put on what I'm fighting. I don't need to worry about whether my attacks are off cooldown, and if I need to defend myself, I can do it, at the cost of worrying about my resources. Compare that to a cooldown-based combat system, where I don't even have that choice.

And that's the other thing. Choice. Cooldowns force balance into your builds, while resource pools offer options to balance your builds. Under a cooldown-based combat system, a strong skill will have a long cooldown, limiting your uses and forcing you to constantly ask yourself, "should I use this." With resource pools, you directly make the choice between whether the skill should be strong but unsustainable, or sustainable but weak.

Choice. Agency. The ability to build your character how you want. That's why I prefer ESO's combat system over others. The only cooldown-based combat system that comes close to ESO's, IMO, would be Guild Wars 2's, mainly due to the fact that it heavily rewards comboing skills together, and so it puts that fluidity back into combat. Still, ESO's is better, IMO.

Put traditional cooldowns into ESO, I'm out for good. And I know for a fact that I wouldn't be the only one.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

So what I'm hearing is put any skill into the gameplay and your out. [snip] Eso could nerf me into ground. Wait they have lol and I will still play the game. Because it elder scrolls. With that being said the player base is getting lower and lower. [snip] Creative way to save gameplay is balance. They been listening to the same forum for year. I say time to try something different. Something that the causal player will understand. Something that separates pvp from pve. Core issues that most causal player dont understand is a issue when they think why can't I counter a move like cloak or I just bash you out of that. Why can you just spam it. My wish is to save my favorite game. Global cooldown increases rewards counter gameplay that give everyone a chance against over preforming skill without NERFING OVER PREFORMING SKILLS. It's a win win

Edit for bait.

idk · December 2019

Quoted post has been removed.

[snip]

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Global cooldown increases rewards counter gameplay that give everyone a chance against over preforming skill without NERFING OVER PREFORMING SKILLS. It's a win win

Saying this does not make it so. Considering this is currently one of the top MMORPGs of today it would seem the market disagrees with you. If players prefer a very simplified combat deisgn with long cooldowns with skills vs a very the robust combat we have in ESO they will likely enjoy WoW and FFIV. The true die hard ESO fan dose not want this game to be like them.

Edit for bait.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Agree to disagree.
The robust system is amazing. There never is any bias in your point of veiw vs my point of veiw over eso being the greatest mmo. I 100% agree. My concern is the direction and most of all guidance the forum has provided over the years on issue.

To start without a doubt what has made the game a success is elder scrolls lore. Mix with the idea TO PLAY AS YOU WANT. nerf has limited this. Over the year nerf this nerf that. I never called for any damage nerfs or iconic nerfs that effect pve. Many trolls would have you believe otherwise. What I know to be a fact of what causal player are looking for is gameplay balance that effect pvp only. These balance changes should be simple and universal. This issue are always combat gameplay issues based on counter play. NOBODY WANTS TO SLOT A BUNCH OF ANTI GAMEPLAY STUFF ON THERE BAR SET UP. To have it be somewhat effective. Players want play as you want and counter that are universal effective.

Why because then everyone can have there skill tooltip high and everyone can feel like thanos. THINK, by having a universal counter gameplay system. Then we can buff moves. Tooltip will look high and pve will be amazing. In pvp timing and counter gameplay to burst a opponent. Simple direction

jcm2606 · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

So what I'm hearing is put any skill into the gameplay and your out.

Slow gameplay down, force balance into builds rather than giving players choice, and I'm out. It has nothing to do with skill.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Sorry but that by default makes you not a die hard fan.

On the contrary, as @idk said, this makes you not a die hard fan. We're not asking the game to bend itself backwards, breaking the very roots of its design, to please us. You are.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I think they listened to your type enough.

They listened to our type enough? Our type, who have been begging for the nerfs to stop? Don't make me laugh.

They've listened to your type enough. You, who have demanded everything that either kills you or stops you from killing be nerfed, who will throw a temper tantrum if you don't get the nerfs you want. They have listened to you enough.

You are the reason why everything keeps getting nerfed, you are the reason why strong tools keep getting nerfed, you are the reason why classes are blurring together more and more until they are eventually bland, sloppy carcasses barely resembling a class.

It's about time Zenimax listen to us, who discuss with facts and objective reasoning, who asks for nerfs and buffs when necessary, who want a game where every option is strong. They've listened to your type far too often, and it's what led us to where we are today.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Creative way to save gameplay is balance.

This is not creative. This is the exact antithesis of creative. You're literally asking for ESO to become a carbon copy of your average MMORPG, where cooldowns reign supreme, and choices are made for you.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

They been listening to the same forum for year.

They've been listening to the wrong crowd for years. The forums have just as many well thought out posts that are actually good for the game, as the regurgitated nonsense of "nerf the things that kill me, nerf the things that prevent me from killing, buff my things". And yet Zenimax keeps picking the latter, unless everyone agrees on the former.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I say time to try something different.

And you'd be correct. What you say they should try, though, is what's incorrect. They need to start listening to the first crowd mentioned above, the crowd who posts constructive, objective, well thought out feedback that is objectively good for the game. They need to stop listening to the crowd that selfishly tries to get the game to cater to them and only them.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Something that the causal player will understand.

Everything they've done in the past few years has been to have the game be easier for casuals, and look where we are. We might as well not even have classes, because they've been dumbed down so *** far. Every strong skill that acts as the very backbone of a build has been nerfed into mediocrity. They need to stop dumbing the game down for the casuals, grow a pair, and ask casuals to learn.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Something that separates pvp from pve.

Finally something we *** agree on.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Core issues that most causal player dont understand is a issue when they think why can't I counter a move like cloak or I just bash you out of that.

There's a difference between making it easier for casuals to learn, and removing the need for casuals to learn in the first place. Zenimax, this community, and even some of your suggestions, are heading in the direction of the latter.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

My wish is to save my favorite game.

Same here. Unfortunately, the reasons why we both play seem to be fundamentally misaligned, and so our ideal futures are totally different. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, the game itself is aligned with my reasons, leaving you simply asking for the game to be melded into something it was never meant to be. I'm sorry, but if you want a more traditional MMORPG experience, it might be best to go play one that is designed to offer that experience.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Global cooldown increases rewards counter gameplay that give everyone a chance against over preforming skill without NERFING OVER PREFORMING SKILLS.

Already explained everything related to this point. Removes combat fluidity and responsiveness, hurts player agency and immersion, goes against the core principles of the game, yada yada yada. Moving on.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

It's a win win

Given the fact that we're disagreeing in such a fundamental way, it can't really be considered a win/win, now can it?

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

My topic can create heated debates mainly because I see issues base on my experience as a hardcore gamer. However I will post something I post again in this case it's not spamming on a topic but expanding on a theme.

I have seen the same names for years posting. The same ideas in 1 shape or form. Sorry but I disagree with alot of overall ideas. My goal is to provide a fresh take on pvp combat gameplay. My goal is to contribute WITH A SPIRITOF POSITIVITY. Hopefully disagreement can be achieve with agree to disagree. Unfortunately if you think differently your the black sheep. However I'm thankful for a safe space to discuss a common goal. Gameplay balance.

Fur_like_snow · December 2019

Question: have you OP ever played a medium armor high damage stamSorc in no CP? While it wouldn’t be the end of the world to work around a 4 second global cool down on dark deal but the way the game currently works you’re less efficient with your resources if you’re casting dark deals back to back. I guess I just don’t see the point in a change like this unless it’s meant to be more punishing when/if you do get interrupted?

idk · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Agree to disagree.
The robust system is amazing. There never is any bias in your point of veiw vs my point of veiw over eso being the greatest mmo.

The only one disagreeing is you. The rest of us are in agreement that the combat system does not need archaic cooldowns on skills. More importantly

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

My topic can create heated debates mainly because I see issues base on my experience as a hardcore gamer.

By your own wording your suggestion does not seem to come from experience as a hard core gamer but one that finds themselves at a disadvantage with the more robust combat system ESO provides. After all, it is you that suggests that the combat system provides an advantage in PvP which is absurd since everyone is subject to the same combat system.

If you want a game with CDs on skills there are games out there for you. Clearly you stand alone with this opinion concerning ESO.

ZOS_GregoryV · December 2019

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts for Baiting, we remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of the rules we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

idk · December 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All abilities should have at least a 3 sec cooldown.
Which in return should be the foundation at abilities balance. Eso fundamental is not balance

Not to leave out pretty much most of the player base would disagree. Probably why no one is agreeing with you and this thread lacks life.

This precisely. The entire reason why I've stuck with ESO so long (until recently, which I'll get into) is because there is no other MMO with a combat system like it.

I cannot stand games with combat systems that revolve around cooldowns to balance skills. In my experience, cooldowns result in a clunky and unresponsive mess of an experience that offers next to no player agency, and actively hurts immersion. Rather than focusing on what I'm fighting, I'm instead having to focus on my action bar to check if my attacks have come off cooldown, and to check if my utility skills are off cooldown in case I need to use them.

In contrast, an action-styled combat system like ESO's solves basically all of these points, while honestly delivering a much deeper character building experience.

In my experience, action-styled combat systems naturally result in a fluid and responsive experience, that offers a healthy amount of player agency and immersion. As long as my character is built to sustain itself, my full attention can be put on what I'm fighting. I don't need to worry about whether my attacks are off cooldown, and if I need to defend myself, I can do it, at the cost of worrying about my resources. Compare that to a cooldown-based combat system, where I don't even have that choice.

And that's the other thing. Choice. Cooldowns force balance into your builds, while resource pools offer options to balance your builds. Under a cooldown-based combat system, a strong skill will have a long cooldown, limiting your uses and forcing you to constantly ask yourself, "should I use this." With resource pools, you directly make the choice between whether the skill should be strong but unsustainable, or sustainable but weak.

Choice. Agency. The ability to build your character how you want. That's why I prefer ESO's combat system over others. The only cooldown-based combat system that comes close to ESO's, IMO, would be Guild Wars 2's, mainly due to the fact that it heavily rewards comboing skills together, and so it puts that fluidity back into combat. Still, ESO's is better, IMO.

Put traditional cooldowns into ESO, I'm out for good. And I know for a fact that I wouldn't be the only one.

Very well said.

The combat designing this game is one of a few aspects that separate it from older games like WoW and FF14. Spoken like a true die hard fan.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

Xvorg · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

There are tons of games that revolve around CD systems. I'm quite sure people that disliked this game's playing pace has a good time there.

What you can't do is to take the fun from us just because you believe this game should be a carbon copy of those games.

So, can we have a game that the majority here likes?

And by no way ESO is the greatest MMO of all time. That spot is reserved to WoW... but you know something? I dislike a lot the combat system in WoW, so I stay here. If the combat system in WoW was like in ESO but with less lag prolems, I bet you I'll be playing WoW...

idk · December 2019

.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

I do not see anyone suggesting the two are intertwined. We simply disagree with you that antiquated cooldowns on skills are needed in ESO. We like the robust combat we have and agree with Zos that cooldowns are not desired.

You are entitled to your own opinion ofc. Most of us tend to side with the games design.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Your statement has bee

Xvorg wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

There are tons of games that revolve around CD systems. I'm quite sure people that disliked this game's playing pace has a good time there.

What you can't do is to take the fun from us just because you believe this game should be a carbon copy of those games.

So, can we have a game that the majority here likes?

And by no way ESO is the greatest MMO of all time. That spot is reserved to WoW... but you know something? I dislike a lot the combat system in WoW, so I stay here. If the combat system in WoW was like in ESO but with less lag prolems, I bet you I'll be playing WoW...

Your statement has been weight and measured. You are not a true hardcore fan. Your blasphemy in the religion of eso is note. ESO IS THE GREATEST MMO OF ALL TIME. Please stop with the smoke and mirror and ALLOW ESO TO EVOLVE.

idk · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

There are tons of games that revolve around CD systems. I'm quite sure people that disliked this game's playing pace has a good time there.

What you can't do is to take the fun from us just because you believe this game should be a carbon copy of those games.

So, can we have a game that the majority here likes?

And by no way ESO is the greatest MMO of all time. That spot is reserved to WoW... but you know something? I dislike a lot the combat system in WoW, so I stay here. If the combat system in WoW was like in ESO but with less lag prolems, I bet you I'll be playing WoW...

Exactly. Each game has a style that is due to the developers vision for the game. They should not try to be like other games and be do their own thing. It is what sets each apart and allows us to make a choice.

Just like I do not want to play WoW and FFIV I would not expect ESO to meet everyone's needs and it should not try to.

Xvorg · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Your statement has bee

Xvorg wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I fail to understand how play as you want is in any kind of danger by adjusting fundamental to re evaluate the term skill. I'm a firm believer in play as you want. This combination with eso lore is why eso is the greatest mmo of ALL TIME. However I'm not a fan of endless buffs and nerfs that are a base on a fundamental system that rewards spam over well time counter gameplay.

The idea of play as you want is completely different from the idea of the application of play as you want. Your missing the topic and twisting the meaning to bias nature if you dont see this discuss is about the application of play as you want. And definition of skill. Furthermore combat system of pvp mechanics, Not abilities. This is also known as fundamentals.

There are tons of games that revolve around CD systems. I'm quite sure people that disliked this game's playing pace has a good time there.

What you can't do is to take the fun from us just because you believe this game should be a carbon copy of those games.

So, can we have a game that the majority here likes?

And by no way ESO is the greatest MMO of all time. That spot is reserved to WoW... but you know something? I dislike a lot the combat system in WoW, so I stay here. If the combat system in WoW was like in ESO but with less lag prolems, I bet you I'll be playing WoW...

Your statement has been weight and measured. You are not a true hardcore fan. Your blasphemy in the religion of eso is note. ESO IS THE GREATEST MMO OF ALL TIME. Please stop with the smoke and mirror and ALLOW ESO TO EVOLVE.

How ol are you, 15?

Regarding being a hardcore fan, the fact that I'm a huge fan of al TES series does not blur my reasoning. In simple words, what I love the most not always is what I consider is the best, for example I love my wife, but by no means I can say she's the prettiest woman in the world.

Similar to that, my favorite football (soccer) team is Universidad Catolica in Chile. By no means I can say it is the best football team in the world, that would be utterly stupid (connsidering Liverpool is about to win the FIFA Club World Cup if Mengao let them). My favorite NBA team of all time are the Pistons. By no means I'm going to say they were better than the 90s Bulls, or the Celtics of Larry Bird... or even the Warriors of Curry, Klay, Green and KD.

Hardcore fans should be wise enough to recognize that what they follow is because of a deep feeling beyond interests. I play ESO because I love the game and not because it is the best.

ZOS_GregoryV · December 2019

Greetings,

As it seems this thread can not remain civil and members continue to Bait and Flame one another, despite the previous message, we have decided to close this thread. When creating threads/posts, we ask that they be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a moment to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-