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Buff dizzy&flurry (stamina spammables comparison table)
MartiniDaniels
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I decided to compare stamina spammables tooltips on PTS, using same race and gear.
Nord, Spriggan, Bone Pirate, Bloodspawn, Serpent, Dubious, no-CP, all passives + class buffs. Front bar nirnhoned, backbar infused berserker enchant, bar composition similar to typical meta builds.
Results in the table below:
As we can see average damage of no cast time melee spammable is 7915, and ranged spammable is 7470. Thus for cast time abilities:
Dizzy is 1.2 of melee spammable with 0.8 cast time
Flurry is 1.17 of melee spammable with 0.6 cast time
Snipe is 1.43 of ranged spammable with 1.0 cast time
Jabs are 2.08 of melee spammable with 1.0 cast time
Then, to even out Dizzy and Flurry with Snipe and Jabs their damage should be considerably increased.
About costs and additional effects - additional effects of ability are usually included in it's cost and given that Jabs also provide powerful snare and Minor protection and Major Savagery + aoe component, it makes buffs to Dizzy and Flurry even more justified.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Nord, Spriggan, Bone Pirate, Bloodspawn, Serpent, Dubious, no-CP, all passives + class buffs. Front bar nirnhoned, backbar infused berserker enchant, bar composition similar to typical meta builds.
Results in the table below:
As we can see average damage of no cast time melee spammable is 7915, and ranged spammable is 7470. Thus for cast time abilities:
Dizzy is 1.2 of melee spammable with 0.8 cast time
Flurry is 1.17 of melee spammable with 0.6 cast time
Snipe is 1.43 of ranged spammable with 1.0 cast time
Jabs are 2.08 of melee spammable with 1.0 cast time
Then, to even out Dizzy and Flurry with Snipe and Jabs their damage should be considerably increased.
About costs and additional effects - additional effects of ability are usually included in it's cost and given that Jabs also provide powerful snare and Minor protection and Major Savagery + aoe component, it makes buffs to Dizzy and Flurry even more justified.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
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Zer0_CooL✭✭✭✭✭
✭Though these stats are looking solid, and you surely put some effort in this post, i think the conclusion you make out of it goes the wrong direction. I'd rather sugest to adjust Jabs than buff all of the other stam spamables on such a rediculous amount of damage output.12 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Though these stats are looking solid, and you surely put some effort in this post, i think the conclusion you make out of it goes the wrong direction. I'd rather sugest to adjust Jabs than buff all of the other stam spamables on such a rediculous amount of damage output.
Yep, I forgot about magicka side.. magicka then should have some cast time spammables with decent damage too. About nerfing jabs - they were not much of a problem before... it's just meta of this patch where everybody is tanky so you need to go all damage sets to kill anybody and you overall can outheal damage of all other classes, but when you meet stamplar and he got lucky with BL procs you just don't wanna login without BRP DW anymore. And to run one set as must have because of one spec... it becomes boring fast.2 -
Shaloknir✭✭✭Solid post and conclusion. One thing needs clarification though. Channeled abilities have drawbacks instant abilities dont have. Did you take this in consideration?2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Solid post and conclusion. One thing needs clarification though. Channeled abilities have drawbacks instant abilities dont have. Did you take this in consideration?
That's why I don't consider buffing instant cast abilities. And in terms of channeled (jabs and flurry) vs cast time (dizzy and snipe), jabs are again in more favorable position because first tick of jabs will hit even if rest of jabs is dodged (and so minor protection, snare and major savagey will proc) while dizzy is dodged completely. In the same time I don't see much problems with magplars in U24 and all PVE templars don't need nerf as well.
So it's more about giving other classes ability to do same damage as stamplars without relying on semi-exploits or pigeon-holing into 1 or 2 effective builds.1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Out of curiosity, do you have the numbers for jabs without a burning light proc? I’d be interested to see how it would compare. Other than that, great work.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Out of curiosity, do you have the numbers for jabs without a burning light proc? I’d be interested to see how it would compare. Other than that, great work.
Thanks!
Stamplar tooltips (4.5k WD, 28k stamina, no-CP)- 2974*4 jabs + 4594 BL = 16490 vs 9399 dizzy. 55% more damage for extra 0.2 cast time:
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only egregious outlier is of course Jabs, which basically goes without saying for anyone who has gotten caught in a Potl Onslaught Jabs combo lol.
I'd like to see Jabs/Templar adjustments personally; I hate that ZOS has locked SOOO much of the class power behind spamming one skill. It feels really bland and severely limits build options.4 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.Edited by ThePedge on December 9, 2019 2:13PM4 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Having a cast time less than 0.9 GCD means, essentially from a weaving point of view, it is essentially same as instant skills as you won't miss the LA GCD. If you buff Dizzy and Flurry, no one will ever use class spammables in PvE. Already a lot of StamNB PvE builds for example use Flurry over Surprise Attack.
Jabs and Snipe is both above 0.9 GCD cast time/channel, meaning you won't be able to LA weave as efficiently as GCD is 0.9 secs.
Jabs is overpowered as a spammable, only reason not to use it is that it is harder to sustain in a light attack rotation.6 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.
So 62% less damage is 'slightly weaker' now?PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Zer0_CooL✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.
Not to mention that they adjusted one set only to include that specific skill.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Don't forget that jabs is the only thing on that list that can passively be reduced by 25% (less since burning light proc won't be affected) by any medium armor or nightblade build.
Buff flurry and uppercut!3 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Don't forget that jabs is the only thing on that list that can passively be reduced by 25% (less since burning light proc won't be affected) by any medium armor or nightblade build.
Buff flurry and uppercut!
They changed it recently to be 'direct damage' CP wise, wouldn't surprise me if that means Evasion doesn't apply.
I also forgot in my previous post; grants Minor Protection for 6s, and does 10% more damage to blocking opponents.0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Don't forget that jabs is the only thing on that list that can passively be reduced by 25% (less since burning light proc won't be affected) by any medium armor or nightblade build.
Buff flurry and uppercut!
It also ignores dodge so the damage reduction is a moot point. On average dodge avoids a lot more damage than major evasion.2 -
Shaloknir✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Don't forget that jabs is the only thing on that list that can passively be reduced by 25% (less since burning light proc won't be affected) by any medium armor or nightblade build.
Buff flurry and uppercut!
It also ignores dodge so the damage reduction is a moot point. On average dodge avoids a lot more damage than major evasion.
Jabs/sweeps is fine. Easy to avoid. I make my APs killing templars. Just walk through them and apply pressure! Easy as a pie. The BIGGEST thing to fix is the sorcerer row and class column, N/A
In all seriousness OP suggestion has merit and he included the math. Respect. Cant argue with mathematics, buff uppercut/flurry, let us know when its done ZOS
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Don't forget that jabs is the only thing on that list that can passively be reduced by 25% (less since burning light proc won't be affected) by any medium armor or nightblade build.
Buff flurry and uppercut!
It also ignores dodge so the damage reduction is a moot point. On average dodge avoids a lot more damage than major evasion.
Jabs/sweeps is fine. Easy to avoid. I make my APs killing templars. Just walk through them and apply pressure! Easy as a pie. The BIGGEST thing to fix is the sorcerer row and class column, N/A
In all seriousness OP suggestion has merit and he included the math. Respect. Cant argue with mathematics, buff uppercut/flurry, let us know when its done ZOS
No, magplar sweeps are fine. Magplar is not limited in the same way and replacing Sweeps with another spammable is viable. Stamplar not so much.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I dont understand this conclusion.
You get snipe with 25% longer cast time than dizzy which puts it at 1sec which is arguably worse than the cast time difference between flurry and dizzy all while doing only 14% more damage than dizzy.
And your conclusion is dizzy damage needs to be considerably increased? Really? What is considerable damage increase for ability like Uppercut (both morphs) which is currently literally and objectively one of strongest spammables in the game
I dont see how your comparison table reflects any of that therefore the conclusion can only be inaccurate at best but probably just simply wrong.Edited by SodanTok on December 10, 2019 2:05PM9 -
tplink3r1✭✭✭✭✭
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It deals less than half the damage on AOE, not "slightly" less.Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.
Your bias is showing.VR16 Templar
VR3 Sorcerer0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Meanwhile I get to watch stonefist get absorbed by BoL&shimmering
I don't wanna change the topic but honestly I'd rather have that ape poop of a ''spammable'' buffed instead.I use d.swing constantly and it hits for good numbers honestly, I don't think it needs a buff as far as raw damage goes.
However for jabs you have a point, the thing is AoE on top of that too.5 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭
It deals less than half the damage on AOE, not "slightly" less.Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.
Your bias is showing.
Oh sorry, the strongest Stam spammable in the game is ONLY 61% weaker against AoE targets.
Its the ONLY AoE on the list, giving it another distinct advantage.4 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
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It deals less than half the damage on AOE, not "slightly" less.Lmfao at Jabs.
That's AoE too (albeit slightly weaker on non-primary targets), what monkeys are balancing these skills.
No cast time, procs Major Savagery, 40% snare, AoE, chance to proc almost spammable levels of free damage from passive.
Your bias is showing.
Oh sorry, the strongest Stam spammable in the game is ONLY 61% weaker against AoE targets.
Its the ONLY AoE on the list, giving it another distinct advantage.
*unless your enemy runs evasion!1 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭just nerf jabs. it's not balanced. everyone and their grandmas can see that.
/thread.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber5 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont understand this conclusion.
You get snipe with 25% longer cast time than dizzy which puts it at 1sec which is arguably worse than the cast time difference between flurry and dizzy all while doing only 14% more damage than dizzy.
And your conclusion is dizzy damage needs to be considerably increased? Really? What is considerable damage increase for ability like Uppercut (both morphs) which is currently literally and objectively one of strongest spammables in the game
I dont see how your comparison table reflects any of that therefore the conclusion can only be inaccurate at best but probably just simply wrong.
You may see from this table that even without going into bow-optimized build, snipe has higher damage even before hawk eye's stacks and distance bonus.. so that's ok that 35m+ ability has comparable damage (with defile and poisoned on top) as melee cast time? Snipe requires total re-work.. maybe it should hit really hard, but that should require skill and aim.. now snipe is auto-aimed unless target hide behind LOS. Just press snipe and turn to other side of screen without breaking LOS... snipe will fly to the target even with crosshair put 90 degrees out of target.
Anyway, of course I'm not advocating for 15k dizzy tooltip in no-CP on average build. I think 10-15% increase will be fair.
As for the jabs.. again, they were not overperforming before and there were no massive buffs to them.... it's just how meta turned out that they became so powerful.. because a whole lot of another abilities was nerfed. Dots - nerfed, stamDK - nerfed, NB - nerfed. Even sorc received a fair share of nerfs. So imo it is better to buff all those back instead of nerfing jabs to the ground.3 -
sly007✭✭✭✭I dont understand this conclusion.
You get snipe with 25% longer cast time than dizzy which puts it at 1sec which is arguably worse than the cast time difference between flurry and dizzy all while doing only 14% more damage than dizzy.
And your conclusion is dizzy damage needs to be considerably increased? Really? What is considerable damage increase for ability like Uppercut (both morphs) which is currently literally and objectively one of strongest spammables in the game
I dont see how your comparison table reflects any of that therefore the conclusion can only be inaccurate at best but probably just simply wrong.
Snipe is ranged. Ranged abilities have lower damage than melee abilities0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If working properly, snipe is not a big deal to counter play.
I play stamDK with wings, so I don't worry much about snipe... And I don't tell that snipe should be nerfed. But it is not weak either. Everything is in comparison table - even without major breach applied, snipe will hit like dizzy. So if dizzy hits hard, this means snipe hits hard as well, but it doesn't require it's user to put his backside on the line. Of course snipe is pretty useless in resource towers and in BG maps with ton of buildings. But in open world/keeps..
Simply put, in my opinion dizzy should hit harder then snipe, at least in base tooltip.. (given that snipe tooltip is just a part of real snipe damage with bonuses from range, hawk eye, poisoned).3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I dont understand this conclusion.
You get snipe with 25% longer cast time than dizzy which puts it at 1sec which is arguably worse than the cast time difference between flurry and dizzy all while doing only 14% more damage than dizzy.
And your conclusion is dizzy damage needs to be considerably increased? Really? What is considerable damage increase for ability like Uppercut (both morphs) which is currently literally and objectively one of strongest spammables in the game
I dont see how your comparison table reflects any of that therefore the conclusion can only be inaccurate at best but probably just simply wrong.
Snipe is ranged. Ranged abilities have lower damage than melee abilities
And longer cast time abilities have higher damage, i dont see your point?MartiniDaniels wrote: »I dont understand this conclusion.
You get snipe with 25% longer cast time than dizzy which puts it at 1sec which is arguably worse than the cast time difference between flurry and dizzy all while doing only 14% more damage than dizzy.
And your conclusion is dizzy damage needs to be considerably increased? Really? What is considerable damage increase for ability like Uppercut (both morphs) which is currently literally and objectively one of strongest spammables in the game
I dont see how your comparison table reflects any of that therefore the conclusion can only be inaccurate at best but probably just simply wrong.
You may see from this table that even without going into bow-optimized build, snipe has higher damage even before hawk eye's stacks and distance bonus.. so that's ok that 35m+ ability has comparable damage (with defile and poisoned on top) as melee cast time? Snipe requires total re-work.. maybe it should hit really hard, but that should require skill and aim.. now snipe is auto-aimed unless target hide behind LOS. Just press snipe and turn to other side of screen without breaking LOS... snipe will fly to the target even with crosshair put 90 degrees out of target.
Anyway, of course I'm not advocating for 15k dizzy tooltip in no-CP on average build. I think 10-15% increase will be fair.
As for the jabs.. again, they were not overperforming before and there were no massive buffs to them.... it's just how meta turned out that they became so powerful.. because a whole lot of another abilities was nerfed. Dots - nerfed, stamDK - nerfed, NB - nerfed. Even sorc received a fair share of nerfs. So imo it is better to buff all those back instead of nerfing jabs to the ground.
Damage is not everything hence why I said your conclusion is simply wrong by coming from inaccurate data. One could make equally flawed argument that damage of dizzy swing (and flurry) has to be reduced because in one second of time (one GCD) it deals considerably more damage than many other spammables.4