Buff dizzy&flurry (stamina spammables comparison table)

MartiniDaniels

That's why there are so many threads to nerf something and little to none to buff something.

Because:

- DK's stone fist is mediocre and NB's SA is mediocre, and they will prefer to buff class ability instead of weapon ability
- magicka receives nothing good from dizzy buff, it's better for them just to ditch stamplar
- bow users didn't like it either because dswing builds are probably most effective against bow users
... ???
- NERF JABS

Shaloknir

Just read the original post again and it hit me. Is the OP comparing tooltips only?

Tooltips can be misleading. Every class has passives and other active abilities that contribute to dps. In example dk/necro has strong dots, Templar has burning light, Warden has minor berserk etc. All im saying is - this needs to be look at as a part of a bigger picture and skills toolkit.

As for nerfs/buffs, i like to think buffing is a better way to balance things now that the round of skills audit has concluded. So I hope nerfing is over. Instead we need abilities buffed so that overall performance of classes and skills is somewhat equal.

MartiniDaniels

Shaloknir wrote: »

Just read the original post again and it hit me. Is the OP comparing tooltips only?

Tooltips can be misleading. Every class has passives and other active abilities that contribute to dps. In example dk/necro has strong dots, Templar has burning light, Warden has minor berserk etc. All im saying is - this needs to be look at as a part of a bigger picture and skills toolkit.

As for nerfs/buffs, i like to think buffing is a better way to balance things now that the round of skills audit has concluded. So I hope nerfing is over. Instead we need abilities buffed so that overall performance of classes and skills is somewhat equal.

Those tooltips are with all passives/optimal bar setup and damage buffs active. And stamDK/stamcro dots are not strong, they are stronger then other dots but they are still much weaker then dots were in Elsweyr, U22 (before U23 buffs). As general dots now have same tooltip as in Elsweyr but much longer duration. Noxious breath for example received whopping increase to cost, nerf to direct damage part and nerf to dot part. On same setup as in OP, dot part of noxious will be ~9k over 14 seconds. 9k over 14 seconds, lol. The only useful things about this ability is major fracture and fact that weak dot is added to active effects, so when purging it increase chances that valuable debuffs will remain on target.

So yes, dots (all dots) should be returned to Elsweyr tooltips.. what they have now is just makes attrition type of gameplay not viable for stamina... magDK is another story. He stacks both major breach and engulfing, plus good half of Cyro is vampires...

Hotdog_23

Ok for argument sake….

What is a DK’s Noxious Breath tool tips on a StamDK which hits all enemies for the full amount and applies major fracture and a 30% reduced movement speed as well as a DOT?

Stamsorc has no class spammable.

NB’s also get major fracture on target as well with the use of Surprise attack. Plus, you get free Major Resolve and Major Ward when other classes must press a button and use a GCD to get it.

Necros, you have blastbones in your numbers with is not right for a 2.5 second skill when you did not use Subterranean Assault which has a 3 seconds timer for the warden. You should have used Venom Skull. What are the numbers for it?

Wardens you did not talk about the bleed or off-balance possibility with cutting dive.

Sorry but it looks like a nerf thread for jabs because you only included its passives and not the others. Plus you did not mention the light attack that is easier to pull off in one seconds on dizzy and flurry vs jabs and snipe and light attacks do a good amount of damage.

Zer0_CooL

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

... nerf... jabs

Yes please!!

MartiniDaniels

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Ok for argument sake….

What is a DK’s Noxious Breath tool tips on a StamDK which hits all enemies for the full amount and applies major fracture and a 30% reduced movement speed as well as a DOT?

Stamsorc has no class spammable.

NB’s also get major fracture on target as well with the use of Surprise attack. Plus, you get free Major Resolve and Major Ward when other classes must press a button and use a GCD to get it.

Necros, you have blastbones in your numbers with is not right for a 2.5 second skill when you did not use Subterranean Assault which has a 3 seconds timer for the warden. You should have used Venom Skull. What are the numbers for it?

Wardens you did not talk about the bleed or off-balance possibility with cutting dive.

Sorry but it looks like a nerf thread for jabs because you only included its passives and not the others. Plus you did not mention the light attack that is easier to pull off in one seconds on dizzy and flurry vs jabs and snipe and light attacks do a good amount of damage.

Both Surprise Attack and Noxious were severely nerfed (SA doesn't apply major fracture anymore and Noxious got huge cost increase and damage reduced, because it was standartized as AOE). About free major resolve on shadow, this maybe valuable in PVE, but in PVP each other class has decent and must have ability which provides same buffs in pack with other useful features. Also NB receives this buff from Cloak/Shade/Fear anyway. SA is mediocre nowadays. Not trash or useless, just mediocre.

About Noxious tooltip, here it is (in same conditions as another abilities from table):


So noxious breath deals just 1.5k more damage then jabs, but over 14 seconds. Btw, you are rooted in place when using noxious, so it's hardly a spammable in mobile fight. Tooltip may look like not bad one for no-CP, but that is over FOURTEEN seconds. 14 seconds... that damage from dot part is barely noticeable in practice.

About light attacks etc - I am comparing cast time against cast time. Yeah, in PVE it's much easier to weave on wreckling blow then on jabs (though stamplars use jabs nevertheless, which is another proof that jabs are better then dizzy). But in PVP on ever moving target it's hardly a big difference.

And I stated several times - I am against nerf of jabs. I am for buffing all those abilities which were nerfed in last patches back to U21-U22 versions. Dizzy damage was decreased because it had knockback and ZOS reduced cast time. Now they removed knockback, but damage remained the same. Yeah, dizzy procs Truth... yes, off-balance is more powerful in CP. But good half or even more of PVP happens in no-CP, where off-balance is much weaker then knockback.

ThePedge

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Ok for argument sake….

What is a DK’s Noxious Breath tool tips on a StamDK which hits all enemies for the full amount and applies major fracture and a 30% reduced movement speed as well as a DOT?

Stamsorc has no class spammable.

NB’s also get major fracture on target as well with the use of Surprise attack. Plus, you get free Major Resolve and Major Ward when other classes must press a button and use a GCD to get it.

Necros, you have blastbones in your numbers with is not right for a 2.5 second skill when you did not use Subterranean Assault which has a 3 seconds timer for the warden. You should have used Venom Skull. What are the numbers for it?

Wardens you did not talk about the bleed or off-balance possibility with cutting dive.

Sorry but it looks like a nerf thread for jabs because you only included its passives and not the others. Plus you did not mention the light attack that is easier to pull off in one seconds on dizzy and flurry vs jabs and snipe and light attacks do a good amount of damage.

Surprise Attacks 5% resistance debuff is significantly worse than Major Fracture, unless someone has 106k resistances.

Hotdog_23

ThePedge wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Ok for argument sake….

What is a DK’s Noxious Breath tool tips on a StamDK which hits all enemies for the full amount and applies major fracture and a 30% reduced movement speed as well as a DOT?

Stamsorc has no class spammable.

NB’s also get major fracture on target as well with the use of Surprise attack. Plus, you get free Major Resolve and Major Ward when other classes must press a button and use a GCD to get it.

Necros, you have blastbones in your numbers with is not right for a 2.5 second skill when you did not use Subterranean Assault which has a 3 seconds timer for the warden. You should have used Venom Skull. What are the numbers for it?

Wardens you did not talk about the bleed or off-balance possibility with cutting dive.

Sorry but it looks like a nerf thread for jabs because you only included its passives and not the others. Plus you did not mention the light attack that is easier to pull off in one seconds on dizzy and flurry vs jabs and snipe and light attacks do a good amount of damage.

Surprise Attacks 5% resistance debuff is significantly worse than Major Fracture, unless someone has 106k resistances.

My mistake I forgot about the nerf to Suprise Attack>

Ragnarock41

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Ok for argument sake….

What is a DK’s Noxious Breath tool tips on a StamDK which hits all enemies for the full amount and applies major fracture and a 30% reduced movement speed as well as a DOT?

Stamsorc has no class spammable.

NB’s also get major fracture on target as well with the use of Surprise attack. Plus, you get free Major Resolve and Major Ward when other classes must press a button and use a GCD to get it.

Necros, you have blastbones in your numbers with is not right for a 2.5 second skill when you did not use Subterranean Assault which has a 3 seconds timer for the warden. You should have used Venom Skull. What are the numbers for it?

Wardens you did not talk about the bleed or off-balance possibility with cutting dive.

Sorry but it looks like a nerf thread for jabs because you only included its passives and not the others. Plus you did not mention the light attack that is easier to pull off in one seconds on dizzy and flurry vs jabs and snipe and light attacks do a good amount of damage.

Noxious breath is in line with 2h cleave.

Valykc

The biggest “oof” of this thread is seeing “N/A” next to StamSorc class spammable lol

EtTuBrutus

There are a lot of downsides to jabs. Those are definately factors in addressing its balance. It's a very powerful skill with very exploitable counterplay. Rarely do all 4 attacks hit me, especially back to back. That reduces its effectiveness tremendously.

Flurry needs some help though.

evoniee

stop it, weapon skill are superior to class skill atm.
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also everybody who whine puncturing strike is op are bad and l2p issue.
the damage is spread between 1sec+ and everybody can see it easily instead a smack in your face.

remember ppl sloting Surprise attack, that skill inferior in pvp

Ariades_swe

Inth

evoniee wrote: »

stop it, weapon skill are superior to class skill atm.
-
-


also everybody who whine puncturing strike is op are bad and l2p issue.
the damage is spread between 1sec+ and everybody can see it easily instead a smack in your face.

remember ppl sloting Surprise attack, that skill inferior in pvp

Agreed and dizzying got a huge buff that wasn't in the patchnotes making it very easy to land these days.
Surpised noone mentioned that buff tbh.

Kadoin

Valykc wrote: »

The biggest “oof” of this thread is seeing “N/A” next to StamSorc class spammable lol

I just use flurry on both my sorc and DK, and despite the misleading chart by the OP and forum claims, its not as bad as they claim when I use bloodthirst and even face-to-face v. stam builds. Then again not everyone knows how to move to prevent people from abusing targeting bug...Wait, "feature"

Snatchez

I’ve always thought flury could use a dog increase but if dizzy is buffed people will instantly cry nerf. As it sits now it hits hard and is t to painful to land with themed attack follow up for the stun.

Mason_Cane

Nerf sorc

Goregrinder

Dizzy is fine where it is, people still run it so it's viable, and you actually have to actually manually use it instead of just spam it over and over and over until you land a stun, which is better for everyone. Flurry I guess could use a little buff.

Mason_Cane

Using dizzy with the stun was just fun. Stop taking the fun from this darn game with your Nerf this Nerf that. This game will never be balance.

ThePhantomThorn

remember when in scale i said sweeps were op?
you all said l2p.

look at that table and say its fine

Canned_Apples

dizzy is fine.
flurry is garbage.

Ragnarock41

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

remember when in scale i said sweeps were op?
you all said l2p.

look at that table and say its fine

It was in line with hard hitting dots then. Now Its not.

ecru

I'm 99% positive your calculation for Flurry's damage is wrong if you're going by the tooltip description and you increased the damage of the last hit by 300% to arrive at your number. The final damage is increased by 226%, not 300% like the tooltip suggests (don't ask me why), which makes it much weaker than you suggest it is in your table.

Iskiab

This may sound like it’s derailing the thread, but really it’s dots being too weak that’s the issue. Everyone’s concerned about spammables because everyone’s using direct damage. If dots were stronger everyone wouldn’t be so reliant on having a strong spammable.

Ragnaroek93

Looking at Surprise Attack in that picture really makes me angry. A class without any stamina class dot isn't even allowed to have a good direct dmg spammable anymore. Balance in this game is at it's absolut worst point in history and it's hilarious how it's just going to be even worse next patch.

I'm glad that I uninstalled this meme game. Wrobel was just a scapegoat and the true issue is that they have monkeys in the key positions most likely.

Casul

Fascinating read, I figured that warden would be lower on the ranks for damage. Nice work.

butterrum222

Is this a secret nerf Templar thread... I’m ok with that

MartiniDaniels

Well, I played stamplar few weeks and may say that jabs are very unstable ability. If opponent stands in one place (or runs in straight line) and doesn't have major evasion, jabs are devastating. I even removed execute sometimes and can finish players with jabs after onslaught (if they block heal standing in one place)... but if player is very mobile and runs shuffle or brp... jabs are mediocre and if game lags hard they might become absolutely useless.

wheem_ESO

I've seen Stamina-Jabs hit for ~7.5k over 1 second in no-CP BGs, which is utterly ridiculous and needs to be nerfed (pretty substantially, at that). That said, I've also seen some really high damage on both Dizzying Swing and Flurry, and would be 100% against damage buffs for either ability.

ecru

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I've seen Stamina-Jabs hit for ~7.5k over 1 second in no-CP BGs, which is utterly ridiculous and needs to be nerfed (pretty substantially, at that). That said, I've also seen some really high damage on both Dizzying Swing and Flurry, and would be 100% against damage buffs for either ability.

Flurry does 15% less damage than Dizzy as it is. If you saw high damage from Flurry, it was probably due to one or both damage increasing passives (adding up to 35% increased damage) being active, but that's entirely situational. It could have also been a DK with Corrosive up.

dazee

Solariken wrote: »

The only egregious outlier is of course Jabs, which basically goes without saying for anyone who has gotten caught in a Potl Onslaught Jabs combo lol.

I'd like to see Jabs/Templar adjustments personally; I hate that ZOS has locked SOOO much of the class power behind spamming one skill. It feels really bland and severely limits build options.

if they gave us another good option I wouldn't mind adjusting jabs, looks lame anyway since it makes your weapon dissapear. but templar as it is, jabs is the only good thing it has for stam, unless you give it other things, leave it the F alone.