Idea for In Game Tutorials on how to best play the different roles (DPS, Tank, Healer)

JusticeForJilarga · November 2019

This One has posted a question asking what's worse between a "Fake Tank" and a "Fake Healer". A Lot of people was mentioning people with "Bad DPS". So This One thought of an idea to help improve DPS and Tanks and Healer.

Some in game tutorials possibly simulations of Dungeons with 3 NPCs of other roles where it gives you tips on how to do the roles better. (With the NPCS roles changing depending on what your role is)

How would you implement these Tips and Tutorials?

L_Nici · November 2019

I wouldn't do that. A huge part of this is dependend on your teammates and how well you understand your role. No Tutorial could explain you that, its all experience.

idk · November 2019

Tutorials might help the fairly unskilled dps but that would be about it. Part of the reason is the best dps comes from a very refined delivery of a rotation that takes practice. The other part is Zos doesn’t define what the best rotation is. Players discover that with testing and practice.

Further, FF14 dies have getting out of stupid as part of their tutorial but avoiding damage in ESO is more complex that moving out of red.

Zos could developer a basic tutorial but that’s only going help so much. It certainly won’t teach how to best play this game.

JusticeForJilarga · December 2019

idk wrote: »

Tutorials might help the fairly unskilled dps but that would be about it. Part of the reason is the best dps comes from a very refined delivery of a rotation that takes practice. The other part is Zos doesn’t define what the best rotation is. Players discover that with testing and practice.

Further, FF14 dies have getting out of stupid as part of their tutorial but avoiding damage in ESO is more complex that moving out of red.

Zos could developer a basic tutorial but that’s only going help so much. It certainly won’t teach how to best play this game.

This One believes any Tutorial regardless of skill level it teaches, is better than none if it helps people get better.

CassandraGemini · December 2019

idk wrote: »

Tutorials might help the fairly unskilled dps but that would be about it. Part of the reason is the best dps comes from a very refined delivery of a rotation that takes practice. The other part is Zos doesn’t define what the best rotation is. Players discover that with testing and practice.

You're right, but then, many people don't even seem to know what a rotation is in the first place. I mean, why would they, if they play more on the casual side and don't specifically ask for it or look it up. The game itself doesn't tell you, like, ever. I actually think a basic tutorial about this wouldn't be a bad idea at all, it might help people to better grasp the concept of what is expected of them as a DD in group content.

CaffeinatedMayhem · December 2019

If would be nice if the game also explained that carrying a staff when most of your atribute points are in stamina is a very bad idea, and does not make you a "mage".

It might, but then, that would require players to *read* such an guide and apply reading comprehension. Something I find many people do not wish to apply to video games.

tomofhyrule · December 2019

I'd love a tutorial for these things.

My main is a tank, but I really don't know much about tanking beyond "taunt the enemy and keep him in one place." I'm really scared to start running dungeons, especially with all of the hate for fake tanks around - what if I'm just a noob?

I suppose I don't have to, but I do want to finish the MQ with him before I start trying dungeons, and then I'll probably see if there are any noob guilds I can join. Pity one of the things I want most in the game is not just a DLC dungeon drop, but I need to do hardmode AND speedrun AND no death for March of Sacrifices...

AgaTheGreat · December 2019

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

A tutorial in the game would be inferior to all the videos that are already on YouTube. People can also learn a lot in various discords and facebook group.

Most people don't want to play in such a way that doesn't make them a burden to their pick up group. They enjoy picking flowers, doing quests and being a werewolf. And that's actually the majority of the playerbase.

FierceSam · December 2019

ZOS’s tutorials are brief and rubbish (at best). The worst thing about them is that you can’t repeat them.

I would like to see the Fighters and Mages guilds being the home of tutorials. This would fit in with their lore roles and give players a reason to visit them.

Even if they only allowed players to repeat the existing, low grade tutorials it would be helpful. If they expanded it so that the tutorials gave a player some feedback on their performance, or introduced them slowly to basic gameplay mechanics (reinforcing block, dodge roll, interrupt and recognising enemy cues) they would be really useful for newer players.

Tutorials are not going to give you a perfect rotation, but they might introduce players to the concept of a rotation, the value of weaving and the difference between single player play (the enemy is always in your face) and group play (where you might be able to position yourself more advantageously).

They might also have low grade target dummies for players to practice on that might give them some basic feedback.

spartaxoxo · December 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

A tutorial in the game would be inferior to all the videos that are already on YouTube. People can also learn a lot in various discords and facebook group.

Most people don't want to play in such a way so they're not a burden to their pick up group. They enjoy picking flowers, doing quests and being a werewolf. And that's actually the majority of the playerbase.

It's not that they don't want to, it's that they think they cannot because they are doing their best with what they got and aren't getting results. They don't want to research, they want to learn by playing. And the game does a poor job of teaching people through gameplay even the basic things.

zvavi · December 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

ZOS’s tutorials are brief and rubbish (at best). The worst thing about them is that you can’t repeat them.

I would like to see the Fighters and Mages guilds being the home of tutorials. This would fit in with their lore roles and give players a reason to visit them.

Even if they only allowed players to repeat the existing, low grade tutorials it would be helpful. If they expanded it so that the tutorials gave a player some feedback on their performance, or introduced them slowly to basic gameplay mechanics (reinforcing block, dodge roll, interrupt and recognising enemy cues) they would be really useful for newer players.

Tutorials are not going to give you a perfect rotation, but they might introduce players to the concept of a rotation, the value of weaving and the difference between single player play (the enemy is always in your face) and group play (where you might be able to position yourself more advantageously).

They might also have low grade target dummies for players to practice on that might give them some basic feedback.

This is actually a super great idea. With mage guild being teachers for mag+heal and fighters for stam+tank.

Lessons could be for example:

Dd:
Keeping up Self buffs + group buffs
Base rotation
Equipment explanation

Heal:
Keeping up group buffs + HoT heals
Watching environment for incoming damage on group for burst heals
Resource help to group.

Tank:
Taunt+keep boss in place+ watch for heavy attacks
Debuff boss
Maintain resources+health, use heals efficiently.
Chains and add control, with the explanation of "taunt priority enemies" and ignoring low trash that doesnt deal damage.

zvavi · December 2019

@tomofhyrule dont worry man, normal and even vet dungeons are kinda joke (more or less) as long as you taunt, hold still and avoid damage (red circles+block/dodge heavy attacks).
I will recommend getting a friendly guildmates that are ready to die a lot on voice before going vDLC the first few times, because it can be a bit overwhelming all of the sudden.
Because thats where tanking truly begins. Thats where you actually learn to tank for the first time.

tsaescishoeshiner · December 2019

L_Nici wrote: »

I wouldn't do that. A huge part of this is dependend on your teammates and how well you understand your role. No Tutorial could explain you that, its all experience.

While I think you're right about how important experience is, I wouldn't underestimate how many people straight don't know the basics about roles or combat.
There's a LOT that the game doesn't explain to people who know nothing about combat or group roles. And a lot of basics that people need reinforcement of. Just for normal dungeons (vet is more experiential or from reading guides)

The other day, I had to teach a tank how to bash. Like this is in the tutorial, but some people don't remember because you can get by without it. They also didn't know about taunts (and why would they?)

- New tanks don't know what a taunt is. The game never ever explains that this is absolutely necessary
- New healers don't get their role of providing synergies and heals-over-time
- New players of all roles don't always know about heavy attack indicators (interruptible vs uninterruptible) and other basics
- DPS don't know about survival skills
- I want to say light attack weaving, using goodish sets, and DoT's would be good DPS tutorials, but really starting with the basics would be fine

I don't think there's a strong argument for NOT having a basic, basic dungeon tutorial, because "learn it from people" also applies to everything in the original tutorial: light attacks, blocks, heavy attacks, sprinting.

The Volendrung tutorial is pretty good. One like that for dungeons would be awesome, especially for tanks and DPS. Just for the basics!

Varana · December 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

Heh, Leeching Plate is great for dungeon pugs.

Royaji · December 2019

Varana wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

Heh, Leeching Plate is great for dungeon pugs.

That's part of the problem. If your average dungeon pug wasn't as bad as they currently are tanks wouldn't need Leeching Plate.

But yeah, I doubt that in-game tutorials would help since people just won't read them anyway.

redgreensunset · December 2019

idk wrote: »

Tutorials might help the fairly unskilled dps but that would be about it. Part of the reason is the best dps comes from a very refined delivery of a rotation that takes practice. The other part is Zos doesn’t define what the best rotation is. Players discover that with testing and practice.

Further, FF14 dies have getting out of stupid as part of their tutorial but avoiding damage in ESO is more complex that moving out of red.

Zos could developer a basic tutorial but that’s only going help so much. It certainly won’t teach how to best play this game.

Considering that people are complaining about unskilled dps then... idk maybe this could begin to address that. As for avoiding damage a in game explanation that you can in fact block spells, which makes no sense to me but whatever, would have been nice early on. Yeah I learned eventually, but considering the complexity a tutorial of the basics beyond get out of stupid would really be beneficial.

FierceSam · December 2019

zvavi wrote: »

@tomofhyrule dont worry man
I will recommend getting a friendly guildmates that are ready to die a lot on voice before going vDLC the first few times, because it can be a bit overwhelming all of the sudden.
Because thats where tanking truly begins. Thats where you actually learn to tank for the first time.

That is so true, the step up to vet DLC is a big one. The very best thing you can have is a patient group that will let you practice (ie die repeatedly) on final bosses. It's like degree level tanking..

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I wouldn't do that. A huge part of this is dependend on your teammates and how well you understand your role. No Tutorial could explain you that, its all experience.

While I think you're right about how important experience is, I wouldn't underestimate how many people straight don't know the basics about roles or combat.
There's a LOT that the game doesn't explain to people who know nothing about combat or group roles. And a lot of basics that people need reinforcement of. Just for normal dungeons (vet is more experiential or from reading guides)

The other day, I had to teach a tank how to bash. Like this is in the tutorial, but some people don't remember because you can get by without it. They also didn't know about taunts (and why would they?)

- New tanks don't know what a taunt is. The game never ever explains that this is absolutely necessary
- New healers don't get their role of providing synergies and heals-over-time
- New players of all roles don't always know about heavy attack indicators (interruptible vs uninterruptible) and other basics
- DPS don't know about survival skills
- I want to say light attack weaving, using goodish sets, and DoT's would be good DPS tutorials, but really starting with the basics would be fine

^This

We all easily forget how much we didn't know when we started. This game has <b>no</b> structured teaching whatsoever. Given that progression as a tank or healer is almost non-existent (you simply won't advance fast enough) and there is no instruction at all about group playing, it's no surprise that players have no idea about bashing, interrupting, taunting, positioning or, frankly, anything at all.

Some kind of in-game instruction would be stupidly helpful to newer players, who might read these forums and be discouraged from ever trying to be healers or tanks.

redgreensunset · December 2019

Royaji wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

Heh, Leeching Plate is great for dungeon pugs.

That's part of the problem. If your average dungeon pug wasn't as bad as they currently are tanks wouldn't need Leeching Plate.

But yeah, I doubt that in-game tutorials would help since people just won't read them anyway.

If the game bothered to provide basic instructions and people didn't bother with them that'd be one thing, but as it stands this game doesn't provide the most basic instructions on roles or how things work in team play. How can you blame people for not knowing stuff the game never tells them?
And don't tell me they should go elsewhere to look it up. For one thing that's messed up beyond anything and for another how the flying **** are you supposed to look something up that you don't even know exist. Idk about you but I do not regularly go searching for information I'm not aware I need because I have no idea it's a thing (see: the fact that you can freaking block spells in this game.)
I can't speak for older tutorials but the Elsweyr one provided me with absolutely no information on anything practical really that I wouldn't have learned within 20 minutes of playing the game without it.

BlueRaven · December 2019

Their are several issues with this idea. Chief amongst them is currently combat has become the weakest part of ESO.

Yes dps is all over the place because ZoS designed it that way. They have (outdated) build guides in the game. And they have essentially made dots and aoes extremely weak.

And then there is the traps of misleading promises.

“Hi, I am new. I want to make a cool battle mage like the one in the cinematic. With a spell in one hand and a sword in the other?”

That does not exist in game. (It did in Skyrim though.)

“Well then I want to make a cool Breton night blade like in the cinematic.”

Psych! You picked the wrong race!

“Well how about a nice bow build?”

Well, pure bow builds don’t exist either...

And shall we address the main elephant in the room? Animation canceling. The combat bug/exploit that ZoS decided to embrace instead of fixing.

The question I have is if animation canceling is something we all need to do to be effective in combat, why is their animations in the game at all. Just eliminate them so there is a common base for combat.

Right now there is two combat systems in the game. Ones that utilize animation canceling and everything else.

So AFTER ZoS figures out what they want dots and aoes to be. And they address the false promise of diversity in builds. And they figure out how to make animation canceling base or not. AND they figure out a way to keep whatever build guides they do implement in game to stay relevant. THEN they can actually put in some game tutorials.

Royaji · December 2019

redgreensunset wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

It won't change anything. People already have access to many resources and you still see tanks in leeching plate and plague doctor or dds who have zero idea what they're doing.

Heh, Leeching Plate is great for dungeon pugs.

That's part of the problem. If your average dungeon pug wasn't as bad as they currently are tanks wouldn't need Leeching Plate.

But yeah, I doubt that in-game tutorials would help since people just won't read them anyway.

If the game bothered to provide basic instructions and people didn't bother with them that'd be one thing, but as it stands this game doesn't provide the most basic instructions on roles or how things work in team play. How can you blame people for not knowing stuff the game never tells them?
And don't tell me they should go elsewhere to look it up. For one thing that's messed up beyond anything and for another how the flying **** are you supposed to look something up that you don't even know exist. Idk about you but I do not regularly go searching for information I'm not aware I need because I have no idea it's a thing (see: the fact that you can freaking block spells in this game.)
I can't speak for older tutorials but the Elsweyr one provided me with absolutely no information on anything practical really that I wouldn't have learned within 20 minutes of playing the game without it.

I haven't done Elsweyr tutorial but base game one definitely goes through things like blocking, interrupting and heavy attacking. Morrowind one did as well. The idea to start people at the newest chapter is bad and I agree with that.

But at the same time, how often do people say "I didn't know that max stamina increases stamina abilites damage!" even though this information is actually in the game, right on the character screen? Those who do not want to look for information won't look for it even if it was available in-game.

idk · December 2019

redgreensunset wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tutorials might help the fairly unskilled dps but that would be about it. Part of the reason is the best dps comes from a very refined delivery of a rotation that takes practice. The other part is Zos doesn’t define what the best rotation is. Players discover that with testing and practice.

Further, FF14 dies have getting out of stupid as part of their tutorial but avoiding damage in ESO is more complex that moving out of red.

Zos could developer a basic tutorial but that’s only going help so much. It certainly won’t teach how to best play this game.

Considering that people are complaining about unskilled dps then... idk maybe this could begin to address that. As for avoiding damage a in game explanation that you can in fact block spells, which makes no sense to me but whatever, would have been nice early on. Yeah I learned eventually, but considering the complexity a tutorial of the basics beyond get out of stupid would really be beneficial.

@redgreensunset

I did not agrue that tutorials should not happen so not sure why you seem to have gotten that from my post. I suggested a tutorial could help unskilled players which is exactly what you are advocating.

BTW, blocking is already in the starting tutorial iirc. Granted it has been awhile since i completed the starting tutorial so maybe I am not remembering correctly.

karekiz · December 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcBzqZV72TM

TSW had a requirement for Nightmare dungeons <Our version of Vet>. Wasn't 100% perfect, but worked decently on the DPS part <Tank version was meh, but heal was amusing with burst healing AI players running into AoE's etc>.

Req:
Min DPS: X
All those AoE's are one shots. Wouldn't change that honestly.
Swap the DPS purge for either CC break or bashing him to stop a cast.

There was one for Tank/Heal too.
I'm all for Gatekeeper type System for Vet que.

RebornV3x · December 2019

My idea is an Advanced Tutorial that unlocks at lv 45 along with getting the Undaunted Enclave Invitation and a new NPC called "The Trainer" appears at each Undaunted Enclave in the alliance capitals this Trainer would be another NPC you would meet during the initial invitation quest like you do for the pledge givers

The Trainer offers 3 repeatable and optional quests each quest includes a quick 30-45sec cutscene that outlines what each role does this could be narrated by a popular youtuber or class rep or whatever and then.

the quest for dps would have you weave light attacks and skills and other things
like weave light attacks 0/3
And go over best practices to do as a dps like don't stand in red 0/3 times and so on.
Healer quest would go over some resto staff skills and have you heal an NPC for X seconds.
Tank would go over the taunt skills and would demonstrate what good tanks do like turn boss away from groups dps etc

Put a good reward for a 1st time complete and a decent reward for the 1st daily complete each day maybe make it a ingame, Steam,Xbox,PS4 achievement and a ingame Title for completing the training like 15 times.

Also I forgot to add you would be teleported to a training ground/arena upon accepting a quest

Dusk_Coven · December 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Well then I want to make a cool Breton night blade like in the cinematic.”[/i]

Psych! You picked the wrong race!

Only meta says that is the "wrong race", though.

Gythral · December 2019

Is the needed tutorial not a raid progression group (guild)...

BlueRaven · December 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Well then I want to make a cool Breton night blade like in the cinematic.”[/i]

Psych! You picked the wrong race!

Only meta says that is the "wrong race", though.

If ZoS designed the races correctly, race would not be a meta factor.

Varana · December 2019

redgreensunset wrote: »

I can't speak for older tutorials but the Elsweyr one provided me with absolutely no information on anything practical really that I wouldn't have learned within 20 minutes of playing the game without it.

The Elsweyr tutorial teaches blocking, how a heavy attack looks like, and interrupting (including the red lines). That's just what I remember.
And judging from experience, interrupting red lines seems to be surprisingly arcane knowledge, so people certainly don't find out about it all by themselves. (Yeah, I know, we did, because we're awesome and human memory is nice enough to adapt to what we want to believe.

)

FierceSam · December 2019

Varana wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

I can't speak for older tutorials but the Elsweyr one provided me with absolutely no information on anything practical really that I wouldn't have learned within 20 minutes of playing the game without it.

The Elsweyr tutorial teaches blocking, how a heavy attack looks like, and interrupting (including the red lines). That's just what I remember.
And judging from experience, interrupting red lines seems to be surprisingly arcane knowledge, so people certainly don't find out about it all by themselves. (Yeah, I know, we did, because we're awesome and human memory is nice enough to adapt to what we want to believe. )

Yes the Elsweyr tutorial does teach this and goes over it 3 times in a pretty basic way. However, once you have done the tutorial, you can never return to it.

Weirdly, the red lines (along with pretty much all the enemy cues in the game) take ages to actually recognise, even if you are looking for them. IIRC, ZOS even accentuated them a few updates ago to help users recognise (or at least see) them.

I get that a great part of playing a game is learning how it's novelties and intricacies work, but most video games do include some sort of ongoing tutorial mechanism to help players improve. I imagine the reason ZOS hasn't done it is not that they don't care, or don't recognise the importance of some kind of structured learning system for their game, but that they see how many players speed through the existing one or don't even bother to complete it and view adding something like this as an uneconomic frivolity.

And telling a new player that the solution to their learning issues is to "just join a raid guild and git gud" is really not the best way of doing things.