What's Worse? Fake Tank or Fake Healer.
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Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?0 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingSalvas_Aren wrote: »How about two fake DDs?
Especially when my tank+heal teamup is not fake.
Nothing is fake dd, it do not exist only in the head of a "fake tank". DD=damage dealer. So! Mr Eienstein if a player deals 200 dps it`s still damage.
You choose to enter que as a tank and not a dd as you should. Bad attitude rude against other player`s and = to trolls
Cool, I'll slot Inner Fire and use it once on the first trash pack. See, now I'm not a fake tank. I just wasn't made aware that you have to taunt more than once.
If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
Even tanks and healers do some "guaranteed damage" just by playing their intended role. Around 4-5k for tanks and 10k or so for healers. If a DD is not able to break 5k he can be replaced by another tank with no detriment to the group (he does the same damage but brings more survivability to the field). This is definitely a fake DD.
You're missing the point. It's a *** DD, not a fake. Their intentions is to do damage. They did not queue themselves into the wrong role (just shouldn't have queued at all).They know what role they chose and are trying to do exactly that. They are really bad at it. The fact that 90% of players of any role could do it better than them doesn't change that.
To me their intent is irrelevant. They are not performing their role, thus they are a "fake".
Exactly! A fake DD would be one that doesn't perform their job, which is to deal damage. And a bad DD is still fulfilling their role, as they're doing damage to enemies to kill them. Slowly. Painstakingly, for the rest of the group.
The only situations where this does not apply is in a fight that is a legitimate DPS check, which ESO has very few of. And at that point, given that a DD can be capable of clearing any other content and this is a specific challenge that the game has not demanded them to fulfill in most content, it can't really apply to their general status as a DD.
We are going in circles now. If a player of a different role deals more damage than a "DD" while performing their intended role, the "DD" is not actually performing theirs.
That's just unrealistic. We both know I can run a full heal build with Fetcher Infection + Blockade for debuffing (CP on spell pen + thaumaturge cause healers have blue CP to spare), or just be a damn Sap/Funnel Health spamming NB heal and do more damage with it than some low CP with a bad rota. That doesn't mean they queued themselves as a fake DD. You can't deny what the word fake means.Edited by Raisin on November 28, 2019 6:21PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Salvas_Aren wrote: »How about two fake DDs?
Especially when my tank+heal teamup is not fake.
Nothing is fake dd, it do not exist only in the head of a "fake tank". DD=damage dealer. So! Mr Eienstein if a player deals 200 dps it`s still damage.
You choose to enter que as a tank and not a dd as you should. Bad attitude rude against other player`s and = to trolls
Cool, I'll slot Inner Fire and use it once on the first trash pack. See, now I'm not a fake tank. I just wasn't made aware that you have to taunt more than once.
If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
Even tanks and healers do some "guaranteed damage" just by playing their intended role. Around 4-5k for tanks and 10k or so for healers. If a DD is not able to break 5k he can be replaced by another tank with no detriment to the group (he does the same damage but brings more survivability to the field). This is definitely a fake DD.
You're missing the point. It's a *** DD, not a fake. Their intentions is to do damage. They did not queue themselves into the wrong role (just shouldn't have queued at all).They know what role they chose and are trying to do exactly that. They are really bad at it. The fact that 90% of players of any role could do it better than them doesn't change that.
To me their intent is irrelevant. They are not performing their role, thus they are a "fake".
Exactly! A fake DD would be one that doesn't perform their job, which is to deal damage. And a bad DD is still fulfilling their role, as they're doing damage to enemies to kill them. Slowly. Painstakingly, for the rest of the group. The only situations where this does not apply is in a fight that is a legitimate DPS check, which ESO has very few of. And at that point, given that a DD can be capable of clearing any other content and this is a specific challenge that the game has not demanded them to fulfill in most content, it can't really apply to their general status as a DD.
We are going in circles now. If a player of a different role deals more damage than a "DD" while performing their intended role, the "DD" is not actually performing theirs.
That's just unrealistic. We both know I can run a full heal build with Fetcher Infection + Blockade for debuffing (CP on spell pen + thaumaturge cause healers have blue CP to spare), or just be a damn Sap/Funnel Health spamming NB heal and do more damage with it than some low CP with a bad rota. That doesn't mean they queued themselves as a fake DD. You can't deny what the word fake means.
Exactly. If a healer in healing sets and two offence skills can deal more damage, the DD is fake.2 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.2 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingSalvas_Aren wrote: »How about two fake DDs?
Especially when my tank+heal teamup is not fake.
Nothing is fake dd, it do not exist only in the head of a "fake tank". DD=damage dealer. So! Mr Eienstein if a player deals 200 dps it`s still damage.
You choose to enter que as a tank and not a dd as you should. Bad attitude rude against other player`s and = to trolls
Cool, I'll slot Inner Fire and use it once on the first trash pack. See, now I'm not a fake tank. I just wasn't made aware that you have to taunt more than once.
If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
Even tanks and healers do some "guaranteed damage" just by playing their intended role. Around 4-5k for tanks and 10k or so for healers. If a DD is not able to break 5k he can be replaced by another tank with no detriment to the group (he does the same damage but brings more survivability to the field). This is definitely a fake DD.
You're missing the point. It's a *** DD, not a fake. Their intentions is to do damage. They did not queue themselves into the wrong role (just shouldn't have queued at all).They know what role they chose and are trying to do exactly that. They are really bad at it. The fact that 90% of players of any role could do it better than them doesn't change that.
To me their intent is irrelevant. They are not performing their role, thus they are a "fake".
Exactly! A fake DD would be one that doesn't perform their job, which is to deal damage. And a bad DD is still fulfilling their role, as they're doing damage to enemies to kill them. Slowly. Painstakingly, for the rest of the group. The only situations where this does not apply is in a fight that is a legitimate DPS check, which ESO has very few of. And at that point, given that a DD can be capable of clearing any other content and this is a specific challenge that the game has not demanded them to fulfill in most content, it can't really apply to their general status as a DD.
We are going in circles now. If a player of a different role deals more damage than a "DD" while performing their intended role, the "DD" is not actually performing theirs.
That's just unrealistic. We both know I can run a full heal build with Fetcher Infection + Blockade for debuffing (CP on spell pen + thaumaturge cause healers have blue CP to spare), or just be a damn Sap/Funnel Health spamming NB heal and do more damage with it than some low CP with a bad rota. That doesn't mean they queued themselves as a fake DD. You can't deny what the word fake means.
Exactly. If a healer in healing sets and two offence skills can deal more damage, the DD is fake.
Generally speaking, the word 'exactly' implies you're agreeing with someone, so it doesn't make much sense to follow it up by directly contradicting what the other person said.
You say we're going in circles, but literally the only way for me to respond to this would be to just copy paste the post you're replying to, where I just explain why your statement is (subjectively if you wish) wrong. The fact that you're willing to say that any low CP DD is just fake because max CP cap tanks and heals can deal damage is ridiculous. Think of it this way: if they queued as a fake DD, it means they should have queued as another role instead. What different role should they have queued for? If the role they chose is still the best suited and they just suck, they aren't fake. If they are using the wrong role indicator, they are fake.
I mean just say it's a difference if opinion if you want.
Edit: And now I finally ended up with a dumb double post. Sorry guys.Edited by Raisin on November 28, 2019 6:35PM3 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
Tanks to wear things they can survive in. Healers to wear... Some sets. Damage dealers to wear sets that boosts the speed the boss dies.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
Edit: and neh, they are not using the wrong role indicator, they are queuing for something they ain't qualified in as ANY role.Edited by zvavi on November 28, 2019 6:49PM1 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. and you dont need outside sources for it. Just to read the *** skills. It is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.Edited by zvavi on November 28, 2019 7:14PM0 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They as both as bad as each other.If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Dude, aggro isn’t tanking. Tanking involves taunting, which holds a boss’ attention on you solely for 15 seconds. Guaranteed*. That is the fundamental distinction.
Everything else is window dressing. Without taunting, your activities are undone by a single mag player with an ice stick. Because their heavy attacks will always take the boss away from you. And you’ve lost control of the room.
If you don’t have the tools to taunt, you aren’t a tank. You may be fulfilling some of the requirements of a tank, you might be behaving like a tank, you may be the world’s best at it, but you aren’t a tank.
* unless the boss cannot be taunted obvs.0 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭In my opinion this topic didn't specify exactly what kind of content "fake" roles shouldn't be used. The poll is also biased because there's no "Other" option.
BTW. Tanking is not just holding aggro, but also buffing and debuffing. But that's beside the point.
I'll still queue to random normal dungeons as a tank or healer on my DD and I don't care. DLC or non DLC dungeons, you don't need a tank in any normal one. Everything dies in three seconds max.
Edited by AgaTheGreat on November 28, 2019 8:39PMPS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat0 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Dude, aggro isn’t tanking. Tanking involves taunting, which holds a boss’ attention on you solely for 15 seconds. Guaranteed*. That is the fundamental distinction.
Everything else is window dressing. Without taunting, your activities are undone by a single mag player with an ice stick. Because their heavy attacks will always take the boss away from you. And you’ve lost control of the room.
If you don’t have the tools to taunt, you aren’t a tank. You may be fulfilling some of the requirements of a tank, you might be behaving like a tank, you may be the world’s best at it, but you aren’t a tank.
* unless the boss cannot be taunted obvs.
Dude, dealing damage isnt being a damage dealer, to have a rotation and sets that supports that damage is being a damage dealer.
If you don't have the tools to deal damage, you aren't a damage dealer. You may be fulfilling some of the requirements of a damage dealer, you might be behaving like a damage dealer, you may be the world’s best at it, but you aren’t a damage dealer.
Spamming lightning flood doesn't make you a damage dealer.
*Unless the boss cant be hurt right now and then you are excused for using heavy attacks for resources.Edited by zvavi on November 28, 2019 8:48PM0 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Fake TankingFake Tanks are by far the worst.
We have enough healing and utility to make healers in 4-man content obsolete. But one-shotting and kited bosses, especially in DLC-vets, are sometimes impossible to enjoy.
Fake DDs are as bad as fake tanks when I am playing my tank. Every trash group takes ages, and playing the boss mechanics over half a dozen times makes the dungeon a chore.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.2 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
They don't, and that's why you have a crap ton of people that think they're tanks but are just buff damage dealers. But those people are doing something else instead of taunting, not doing a *** job at taunting.
Anyway, it sounds like you're a bit salty at DDs now and I have to say I strongly agree with this. No one in a pug gives a flying *** whether a healer debuffs, buffs, wears good sets etc. Its appreciated, but they don't expect any more than the heals. Same goes for debuffing as well as chaining/stacking. As long as the tank taunts and stays alive, people will deal with it. DPS is so *** competitive. DPS are the most likely to get flak or even kicked for not being good enough, even when they're doing more than the completely insane lows we've talked about. They get kicked because the group wants things to go faster, and DD replacements come fast. There is no way healers and tanks are held to a higher standard in PUGs than DDs.
The 'theyre doing their best' just applies to every one for me. They're not fake just because they're crap, and IMO this is also just very weighted against inexperienced players. Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.Edited by Raisin on November 28, 2019 8:08PM2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake TankingI voted fake tank but I’d actually say fake dps. I can deal with wipes, but as a healer long dungeons are a snooze fest. No idea why dps feel like they should get a free ride.Edited by Iskiab on November 28, 2019 8:08PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingIf you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
They don't, and that's why you have a crap ton of people that think they're tanks but are just buff damage dealers. But those people are doing something else instead of taunting, not doing a *** job at taunting.
Anyway, it sounds like you're a bit salty at DDs now and I have to say I strongly agree with this. No one in a pug gives s flying *** whether a healer debuffs, buffs, wears good sets etc. Its appreciated, but they don't expect anymore than the heals. Same goes for debuffing as well as chaining/stacking. As long as the tank taunts and stays alive, people will deal eithbit. DPS is so *** competitive. DPS are the most likely to get flak or even kicked for not being good enough, even when they're doing more than the completely insane lows we've talked about. They get kicked because the group wants things to go faster, and DD replacements come fast. There is no way healers and tanks are held to a higher standard in PUGs than DDs.
The 'theyre doing their best' just applies to every one for me. They're not fake just because they're crap, and IMO this is also just very weighted against inexperienced players. Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
No noooo i aint talking about 20k dps damage dealers i get for vet dlc, dont get me wrong, i am all for people trying their best to fight content they are on the edge with, i even stay till the end, trying to help and tank/heal to the max! Even manage a lot of runs like that.
I specifically have something against damage dealers that dont have a "what skills should i use and how" in mind. As you said, they should use whatever the game is throwing at them. And since skill advisor exists, and the page with skills and what they do exists, chosing skills from there specifically to deal damage, and refreshing them, makes them real damage dealers. Same way chosing taunt, and taunting the big guy.
U dont have to have mmo experience to chose to play a tank. And if u ignore skill advisor you dont have access to taunt. And EVERYONE here agreed that taunting the big guy is bare minimum for being a tank. So why excluding damage dealers? Why do they deserve a "free role" for existing? What if a damage dealer doesn't understand he is playing with real people cause it is his first mmo, so he goes away on the loading screen? I mean, if we decide, that all human beings are dumb as f***, and dont even want to look at what their advised skills and what the skills do, before going into GROUP content, where you have to fulfill a role, why do you expect tanks to do so, and dds to not do so?0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭They as both as bad as each other.If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
@zvavi
That's exactly the thing. I would know because ESO was my first MMO (it's still the only one, I usually do solely single-player), and when I first started out I actually treated it mostly like a single-player game, ignoring the group content. Then at some point I thought "Welp, let's just try that group finder thingy, why not", ended up in a dungeon as a DD with no real clue what to do and why everyone was rushing ahead all of a sudden, while I didn't even really know where I was (it was nFG 1).
I probably sucked hard because I didn't even have a clue what a rotation was at this point, never mind LA weaving or Animation Cancelling. Luckily though, at least I didn't die and managed to stick with the group and grasp the concept of "group dungeons" and the different roles (somewhat). It got me interested and I decided to actually start treating the game like the MMO it is, meaning that I wanted to actively do my part. So I started to research some stuff and got better eventually.
I'm certainly not a top notch DD, because I don't care enough about the meta for that, but all my toons can at least reliably pull somewhere between 30 and 40k damage. And that's the point, you have to give people the opportunity to improve. I'm willing to bet there are more players like me out there, who are not used to MMOs and mostly took up ESO because it is a part of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I don't know how I would have reacted if people would have kicked me for being bad when I was learning, and I'm probably lucky that that wasn't the case.
It's different when I find that people are just being obnoxious when you try to give them advice, or completely ignore everything. That gets me annoyed as well. Most are grateful for tips, though, so don't just dismiss someone just because they do low dps. Most want to improve.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!4 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingCassandraGemini wrote: »If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
@zvavi
That's exactly the thing. I would know because ESO was my first MMO (it's still the only one, I usually do solely single-player), and when I first started out I actually treated it mostly like a single-player game, ignoring the group content. Then at some point I thought "Welp, let's just try that group finder thingy, why not", ended up in a dungeon as a DD with no real clue what to do and why everyone was rushing ahead all of a sudden, while I didn't even really know where I was (it was nFG 1).
I probably sucked hard because I didn't even have a clue what a rotation was at this point, never mind LA weaving or Animation Cancelling. Luckily though, at least I didn't die and managed to stick with the group and grasp the concept of "group dungeons" and the different roles (somewhat). It got me interested and I decided to actually start treating the game like the MMO it is, meaning that I wanted to actively do my part. So I started to research some stuff and got better eventually.
I'm certainly not a top notch DD, because I don't care enough about the meta for that, but all my toons can at least reliably pull somewhere between 30 and 40k damage. And that's the point, you have to give people the opportunity to improve. I'm willing to bet there are more players like me out there, who are not used to MMOs and mostly took up ESO because it is a part of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I don't know how I would have reacted if people would have kicked me for being bad when I was learning, and I'm probably lucky that that wasn't the case.
It's different when I find that people are just being obnoxious when you try to give them advice, or completely ignore everything. That gets me annoyed as well. Most are grateful for tips, though, so don't just dismiss someone just because they do low dps. Most want to improve.
Exactly, first dungeon you did, you maybe queued as a damage dealer, but you weren't one. When you first looked at your skills, and decided how to use them, only then i can call you a damage dealer. Even if you get 5k dps from it, screw the dmg aint the point. The point is, damage dealers, that dont even try to sort out their skills, are not damage dealers.Edited by zvavi on November 28, 2019 8:27PM0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭They as both as bad as each other.CassandraGemini wrote: »If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
@zvavi
That's exactly the thing. I would know because ESO was my first MMO (it's still the only one, I usually do solely single-player), and when I first started out I actually treated it mostly like a single-player game, ignoring the group content. Then at some point I thought "Welp, let's just try that group finder thingy, why not", ended up in a dungeon as a DD with no real clue what to do and why everyone was rushing ahead all of a sudden, while I didn't even really know where I was (it was nFG 1).
I probably sucked hard because I didn't even have a clue what a rotation was at this point, never mind LA weaving or Animation Cancelling. Luckily though, at least I didn't die and managed to stick with the group and grasp the concept of "group dungeons" and the different roles (somewhat). It got me interested and I decided to actually start treating the game like the MMO it is, meaning that I wanted to actively do my part. So I started to research some stuff and got better eventually.
I'm certainly not a top notch DD, because I don't care enough about the meta for that, but all my toons can at least reliably pull somewhere between 30 and 40k damage. And that's the point, you have to give people the opportunity to improve. I'm willing to bet there are more players like me out there, who are not used to MMOs and mostly took up ESO because it is a part of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I don't know how I would have reacted if people would have kicked me for being bad when I was learning, and I'm probably lucky that that wasn't the case.
It's different when I find that people are just being obnoxious when you try to give them advice, or completely ignore everything. That gets me annoyed as well. Most are grateful for tips, though, so don't just dismiss someone just because they do low dps. Most want to improve.
Exactly, first dungeon you did, you maybe queued as a damage dealer, but you weren't one. When you first looked at your skills, and decided how to use them, only then i can call you a damage dealer. Even if you get 5k dps from it, screw the dmg aint the point. The point is, damage dealers, that dont even try to sort out their skills, are not damage dealers.
Yeah, but how often do you actually come across people who try so exceedingly little? Is that even a thing? I mean, that doesn't even have anything to do with MMO or not, if you've played ANY game before, you'd know that if you get skills, use them, don't just randomly push the attack button and expect to succeed. I don't know, maybe I'm just really lucky with my PUGging experience, but I might have had that happen once or twice or something - that I really felt like a DD was pretty much just standing there looking pretty, but not really doing anything worthwhile, like, at all.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake TankingCassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
@zvavi
That's exactly the thing. I would know because ESO was my first MMO (it's still the only one, I usually do solely single-player), and when I first started out I actually treated it mostly like a single-player game, ignoring the group content. Then at some point I thought "Welp, let's just try that group finder thingy, why not", ended up in a dungeon as a DD with no real clue what to do and why everyone was rushing ahead all of a sudden, while I didn't even really know where I was (it was nFG 1).
I probably sucked hard because I didn't even have a clue what a rotation was at this point, never mind LA weaving or Animation Cancelling. Luckily though, at least I didn't die and managed to stick with the group and grasp the concept of "group dungeons" and the different roles (somewhat). It got me interested and I decided to actually start treating the game like the MMO it is, meaning that I wanted to actively do my part. So I started to research some stuff and got better eventually.
I'm certainly not a top notch DD, because I don't care enough about the meta for that, but all my toons can at least reliably pull somewhere between 30 and 40k damage. And that's the point, you have to give people the opportunity to improve. I'm willing to bet there are more players like me out there, who are not used to MMOs and mostly took up ESO because it is a part of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I don't know how I would have reacted if people would have kicked me for being bad when I was learning, and I'm probably lucky that that wasn't the case.
It's different when I find that people are just being obnoxious when you try to give them advice, or completely ignore everything. That gets me annoyed as well. Most are grateful for tips, though, so don't just dismiss someone just because they do low dps. Most want to improve.
Exactly, first dungeon you did, you maybe queued as a damage dealer, but you weren't one. When you first looked at your skills, and decided how to use them, only then i can call you a damage dealer. Even if you get 5k dps from it, screw the dmg aint the point. The point is, damage dealers, that dont even try to sort out their skills, are not damage dealers.
Yeah, but how often do you actually come across people who try so exceedingly little? Is that even a thing? I mean, that doesn't even have anything to do with MMO or not, if you've played ANY game before, you'd know that if you get skills, use them, don't just randomly push the attack button and expect to succeed. I don't know, maybe I'm just really lucky with my PUGging experience, but I might have had that happen once or twice or something - that I really felt like a DD was pretty much just standing there looking pretty, but not really doing anything worthwhile, like, at all.
Uh tbh, usually, it is the ones that queue as fake tanks that are not even qualified as damage dealers xd. Thing is, there are many of them, we just dont notice them. Aint like the boss start running around if they dont do their job. Or the tanks health doesn't go up. And usually the other dd is carrying just fine. it doesn't mean they dont exist. I had a player in a dungeon that spammed lightning flood till they are out of resources. Thats the last one i noticed, and thats because of the excessive noise it makes. If fake dds didn't exist in queue, maybe you would see more real tanks and healers in queue.0 -
nickl413✭✭✭✭Fake HealerHow are we defining "fake" because I have slapped a taunt on a dps and tanked many a vet dungeons. Can't really slap a burst heal on a dps and call your self a healer IMO, it's gonna be a rough run if you don't have any HoTs or shards/orbs.
Now if we're talking people who don't even try to play the roles, I'd say they both are just as bad.0 -
xenowarrior92eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Fake DDs are the worst. when they queue up and they cant pull 40k flat out dps is the real nightmare.1 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭They as both as bad as each other.CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »If you legitimately run into DDs that only attack the first enemy once and then wait, then sure. They are fake DDs. Hell let's be generous, you run into a DD that only attacks any enemy once and you may call them a fake DD. But if they continuously attack anything, no matter how low the dps, to kill it, then they are only comparable to you also continuing to taunt things.
They're horrible DDs and no one expects you to tolerate them, but they are not the same as a DD purposefully queuing as Tank or Heal to skip queue wait. They're also not the same as someone who somehow doesn't understand what the purpose of a tank is and comes in as a DD for that reason, because they understand that their job is to kill the thing. They just can't kill the thing.
A fake DD for me would be someone that doesn't understand that it's not their role to tank or heal. So a DD with a resto staff using several resto skills (or just generally feeling responsible to flash heal anyone who takes minor damage) and barely attacking would qualify. Or a DD in sword and board using puncture. Obviously a tank or heal purposefully queuing as DD qualifies too, but I don't think that's very common.
you just called all my tanks fake tanks because they heal, and my healers fake healers cause they deal damage, and my main(up till nerfweyr), which is a dd, fake dd because he heals. Also you agreed that "barely attacking" makes you unqualified as a damage dealer, tata
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're just on edge because s lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that you didn't really mean to be purposefully obtuse. Please don't be passive aggressive @ me when we both know you're completely misconstruing what I said to suit your own agenda.
Anyway I said that a DD who neglects focusing on their duty to do damage to heal instead would be a fake DD. Of course if you're saying your tank neglects to tank to heal, you're a fake tank? And if your healer neglects their duty to heal and does damage instead, they are a fake heal. If your main chooses to heal over doing damage despite queuing as DD, it's a fake DD. It's not very difficult. If you do not fulfill your own role and do another one instead, you queued as a 'fake (role)'.
(Just in case it needs to be said, this also addresses your last point. I didn't say 'barely attacking makes you a fake DD', I said 'barely attacking because you're focusing on healing instead makes you a fake DD'.)
So to get your point, you are saying that as long as you try to fulfill your role, you are not a fake?
Pretty much, yes, with the caveat that they also have to know what their role entails. So 'I thought DPS means I heal people and light attack and that's what I'm doing' or 'I thought having heavy armor and high health but I'm not taunting anything is tanking and I'm trying really hard to do this', while not the same as straight-up queuing as the wrong role on purpose, are still things that would qualify as fake to me. Fake comes with the connotation of deception, and being something else instead. A bad DD, if they're not fulfilling another role, isn't something else.
In the end, it's difficult to compare the roles on this because they function differently. DPS has a much, much higher ceiling to hit. A tank and heal will much sooner fulfill the bare minimum requirement... But technically, the only bare minimum for a DD is that it's their job to kill the thing. The fact that they can kill it much faster is a concept you can't apply to tanking and healing. If a healer does the bare minimum and keeps you alive, that's it.
Uh, so you agree that they have to be able to kill things. What about vet dlc dungeons, where there are dps checks? Dds that dont qualify damage wise are not fake? They have bare minimum damage they need tp provide so the group wont wipe.
Sorry for double post, just saw this. They have to be able to kill things, yes, but being too slow for our standards doesn't mean they aren't killing things. Which DPS checks do you mean? I'm not saying there are none, I just think ESO has very little true DPS checks (also I have some personal experience that leads me to argue that Tempest Island HM is a DPS check, but that's a mildly irrelevant horror story).
Anyway, because of the scarcity of DPS checks I don't think it can really be considered a general requirement for the role itself. If someone can fulfill their DPS duty in 90% of content, and there's a few specific situations where they're not good enough at it, that doesn't really make them fake rather than bad.
I can keep agro with my dds and survive on 90% of the content without agro skill or actually being tanky, i assume i am not a fake tank?
Not sure why you switched topic focus here. As I mentioned earlier, ESO's aggro system cannot be reliably manipulated by players without taunt. But yeah, if you keep aggro and survive, and prioritize both of those over your damage done, then you're tanking. Not good obviously, since you're not debuffing or buffing and ESO generally treats tanks as a support role, but you are meeting the bare minimum.
Aint prioritizing anything, just need to deal more dmg than the low lvl guys i get, and get into the fight first... So i am the bosses priority...
Thing is, you say, that as long as they are trying to do their role, it is good enough, with the bare minimum of tanks keeping agro and being tanky, and healers healing, i say, that damage dealers have a bare minimum too. Which is a rotation. It doesnt take brains to figure out you need to refresh wall of elemenals every 14 seconds for it to be efficient, same way it doesnt take brain to understand that taunt skills are essentially to keep agro. If the damage dealer, queues for a damage dealer, in content he doesn't have enough damage for because he doesn't understand how dots work, he ain't a damage dealer. If he is spamming lightning flood, he aint a damage dealer.
If tank queues as a tank, and he doesn't use ranged agro in fights that require it, it is a fake tank. Accidentally, an agro is required in MOST fights, with exception of some where it doesn't work, then it's work is to lower the damage output of the boss. If a tank doesnt have an agro in fights the boss cant be agroed, he aint fake.
You are correct, people need to know the bare minimum they need to know to complete their role. Tanks to hold agro and survive, healers to heal, damage dealers to have a rotation.
I still believe that saying that healers and tanks have something they have to do, to qualify as not fake, while insisting that dds dont have to do anything but exist, and slowly light attack every 5 seconds or so, is hypocritical. Correct me if i am wrong.
If you're paired with a bunch of low levels then yeah, high damage usually does the trick. But if you're SOL if you lose aggro for whatever reason and can't purposefully get it back, then ain't a tank. :P My point with the priority is that if, when you lose aggro your reaction is 'well sucks' and you keep parsing, then you're not a tank.
Listen. I firmly believe that rotations are part of ESOs intended playstyle and that the game should be teaching it to people. Even just the concept of 'put on a bunch of DOTs and use a spammable while keeping them up'. The game doesn't. Not in any way. Even light attack weaving gets hinted at in a loading screen tip, but rotation does not. You cannot blame bad DDs for that. It is not their duty to use outside resources to just meet the bare minimum requirements of anything. Saying that a rotation if the bare minimum requirement is more comparable to saying that debuffing/buffing/stacking adds are requirements for the other roles. They are required to be a GOOD heal or tank. Not to be a *** one.
What about healers that are completely heal specced, don't do a lot of damage, have healed a lot of group content, but just cannot seem to keep people alive in some vDLC fights? Are they suddenly fake, I stead of just bad? What about tanks with taunt, survivability, full tank specc that cannot seem to keep up aggro or keep themselves alive in a particularly demanding fight? They also suddenly stop being a real tank, rather than just realizing they're not as good as they thought they were? Why are DDs suddenly fake just because they cannot perform well enough in a situation that is particularly demanding of their role? Why does not being good enough for that one DPS check equal the not being a DD at all? Being underqualified and being a fake are not the same thing.
I believe that saying that healers and tanks only have to do the bare minimum that is in the name and short in-game info of the role to be qualified as not fake, while DDs have to actually be good at it just to not be considered a fraud is hypocritical.
Also, I believe it was the first of my responses to you specifically, I did agree that if you have some completely exaggerated horrible DD who legitimately takes breaks in-between doing a light attack and is just not putting in the effort of killing things then sure, call them fake. I'd just call them an idiot at that point.
I didn't mean a polished rotation, i meant some, refreshing wall of elemenals and lightning flood every 10 seconds while heavy attacking between the refresh times is a rotation as well. Is equivalent to using agro on boss once then standing there like a scarecrow blocking, reapplying agro after 15 seconds.
Except it's really not the same IMO. The tank is doing the bare minimum. For a DD, the absolute bare minimum is to attack things. It really shouldn't be and if the game itself had any interest in teaching players to keep up some dots and then spam a direct damage attack I think I'd actually at least somewhat agree with you here... But in the end, asking a DD to not absolutely suck for me is just one step up higher from defining them as a DD. A tank that doesn't refresh taunt often enough and had little aggro gaps, and dies because they mess up is still a *** tank. A DD with bad deeps (outside of the super unrealistic we talked about) is still a *** DD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The tank has his agro skill introduced in the skill advisor. Dots are introduced in the same skill advisor.
That's actually an interesting point, I forget skill advisor exists. That said, unfortunately I still think it doesn't really teach people how to use/combine the different types of skills. I mean the proof's in the pudding. But I do agree that using any resource the game itself throws at you is a minimum requirement for any role.
They dont teach people to taunt the big guy now do they? Thing is, my whole point, is that community as a whole, unfair to tanks and healers. They are forcing on them responsibilities, while shrugging their own. When you are heading into group content, it is unfair tp be all like "ye tanks should agro and survive, healers should heal, and dds should...exist, they are trying their best, give them a cookie!"
Dealing damage means taking your role seriously, or at least base refreshing damage skills on cooldown and wearing sets that help damage, like obviously in EVERY mmo, same way it is common knowledge that to tank is to agro the big guy and survive, ridding them of that responsibility is being hypocritical.
if you dont do that bare minimum, if you dont do the bare minimum of ANY of the 3 roles you are not qualified for group content. As any role. It means u aint a tank dk, neither heal dk, nor stam dk, nor mag dk, not even hybrid dk, you are just dk. Nothing more.
Most bad DDs are people without MMO experience at all. They're people learning the world of group content, being told it's their job to kill things and they do it the way they think is right. Again, I agree 100% that they're not qualified to run the content, but that doesn't make them fakes. There's no deception, no fraud, no nothing.
@zvavi
That's exactly the thing. I would know because ESO was my first MMO (it's still the only one, I usually do solely single-player), and when I first started out I actually treated it mostly like a single-player game, ignoring the group content. Then at some point I thought "Welp, let's just try that group finder thingy, why not", ended up in a dungeon as a DD with no real clue what to do and why everyone was rushing ahead all of a sudden, while I didn't even really know where I was (it was nFG 1).
I probably sucked hard because I didn't even have a clue what a rotation was at this point, never mind LA weaving or Animation Cancelling. Luckily though, at least I didn't die and managed to stick with the group and grasp the concept of "group dungeons" and the different roles (somewhat). It got me interested and I decided to actually start treating the game like the MMO it is, meaning that I wanted to actively do my part. So I started to research some stuff and got better eventually.
I'm certainly not a top notch DD, because I don't care enough about the meta for that, but all my toons can at least reliably pull somewhere between 30 and 40k damage. And that's the point, you have to give people the opportunity to improve. I'm willing to bet there are more players like me out there, who are not used to MMOs and mostly took up ESO because it is a part of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I don't know how I would have reacted if people would have kicked me for being bad when I was learning, and I'm probably lucky that that wasn't the case.
It's different when I find that people are just being obnoxious when you try to give them advice, or completely ignore everything. That gets me annoyed as well. Most are grateful for tips, though, so don't just dismiss someone just because they do low dps. Most want to improve.
Exactly, first dungeon you did, you maybe queued as a damage dealer, but you weren't one. When you first looked at your skills, and decided how to use them, only then i can call you a damage dealer. Even if you get 5k dps from it, screw the dmg aint the point. The point is, damage dealers, that dont even try to sort out their skills, are not damage dealers.
Yeah, but how often do you actually come across people who try so exceedingly little? Is that even a thing? I mean, that doesn't even have anything to do with MMO or not, if you've played ANY game before, you'd know that if you get skills, use them, don't just randomly push the attack button and expect to succeed. I don't know, maybe I'm just really lucky with my PUGging experience, but I might have had that happen once or twice or something - that I really felt like a DD was pretty much just standing there looking pretty, but not really doing anything worthwhile, like, at all.
Uh tbh, usually, it is the ones that queue as fake tanks that are not even qualified as damage dealers xd. Thing is, there are many of them, we just dont notice them. Aint like the boss start running around if they dont do their job. Or the tanks health doesn't go up. And usually the other dd is carrying just fine. it doesn't mean they dont exist. I had a player in a dungeon that spammed lightning flood till they are out of resources. Thats the last one i noticed, and thats because of the excessive noise it makes. If fake dds didn't exist in queue, maybe you would see more real tanks and healers in queue.
Okay, what I can gather - correct me, if I'm wrong - from what you said is that we can actually agree on most things here: People who don't even try are the worst, no matter what role, DD included. I probably still wouldn't call someone who only just continuously spams a skill while doing little or nothing else "fake", I'd stick to saying they're just "bad", but that really seems to be more of a formality at this point.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!1
