zvavi wrote: »

For what content? Why no fake dds in equation? If "fake tank" holds agro on boss and doesn't die, is it a fake tank? If healer provides eledrain and burst heals, but mainly deals damage, is it a "fake healer"? Please answer the questions above for me to understand the poll better, cause right now i have no idea what it is about

Because fake tanking and fake healing are binary issues - if you can’t taunt and hold aggro (and have a certain amount of robustness) you aren’t a tank; if you don’t heal and buff/debuff you aren’t a healer. There isn’t a middle ground. You can be a new/novice tank or healer or you can be really experienced, but there are still skills and requirements you have to meet.

In your examples they aren’t a fake tank or a fake healer. They are probably right on the limit, and very ‘basic’ examples, but they aren’t ‘fakes’. Ideally, I would expect the tank to also control the room, I would expect the healer to ensure no one died unnecessarily before either did any damage. There is no bar on the tank or healer also doing damage, but being able to do damage does not absolve them of their primary tanking/healing roles. It doesn’t matter how much/little damage they do, if they don’t fulfil those primary responsibilities they are cheating their group. Try going into vet Moongrave Fane or Bloodroot Forge as a tank with no taunt and see how much respect you’re going to get for your damage dealing.

Damage dealing, in contrast, is a quantifiable issue, you can’t be a fake dd if you do damage. You can be a great one or a lousy one, but you’re still a dd. 1k or six million, you’re still a dd. Your group might not like it, but you haven’t cheated them with your 5k damage, you queued as a dd (and you’ll probably die as one).

(And again, if you want to form your own group with no tank or healer and 4 dds and do your randoms that way with one of you signing up as ‘tank’ and one of you signing up as ‘healer’, that’s totally fine and you’re not cheating anyone).

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Fake DD is the worst...

No such thing.. everyone who attacks does damage. There is no dps requirement. The role just requires damage.

You mean ‘low dps’? Why don’t you just say so?

@FierceSam it was a question to @JusticeForJilarga , as the creator of the poll.
Other than that, i will inform you that i have actually created a 4 dd group for vet depths of malathar for fun. It took us 3 hours, but we managed. So u know. Saying "you have to have a tank and a healer for all content" seems like a stretch to me.
Other than that, dds DO have damage requirement. Lets take your same examples. Moongrave fane if dds cant kill adds and plants fast enough, you cant finish the dungeon. Bloodroot forge? If they cant kill the stonesbthat are being summoned every half a minute or so, will get overwhelmed and dead. So yes. they have a role, to deal damage, and if they dont have enough damage as the dungeon REQUIRES you will never pass the dungeon they are FAKE damage. Especially with actual full fledged tanks and healers that focus only on tanking and healing

zvavi wrote: »

@FierceSam it was a question to @JusticeForJilarga , as the creator of the poll.
Other than that, i will inform you that i have actually created a 4 dd group for vet depths of malathar for fun. It took us 3 hours, but we managed. So u know. Saying "you have to have a tank and a healer for all content" seems like a stretch to me.
Other than that, dds DO have damage requirement. Lets take your same examples. Moongrave fane if dds cant kill adds and plants fast enough, you cant finish the dungeon. Bloodroot forge? If they cant kill the stonesbthat are being summoned every half a minute or so, will get overwhelmed and dead. So yes. they have a role, to deal damage, and if they dont have enough damage as the dungeon REQUIRES you will never pass the dungeon they are FAKE damage. Especially with actual full fledged tanks and healers that focus only on tanking and healing

First, gratz on vDoM.

The issue isn’t really ‘do you need a tank/healer for group content’, because clearly you don’t. And anyone is free to form their own group of 4 with any roles, to do any content.

The issue is ‘should you sign up for a PUG as a tank/healer when you can’t/don’t want to fulfil these requirements’. If you are queuing for a PUG, you are queuing with the expectation that someone will fulfil the role of tank, while another will fulfil the role of healer. You aren’t queuing for ‘a quick dungeon’ or ‘a super dps who will run ahead and kill everything for me’. Being a great dps doesn’t mean you can queue as a tank, not fulfil any of the tank roles and claim it’s not cheating your group simply because you can do arsepounding dps. That’s fake tanking. You’re either a tank or you aren’t.

You cannot have fake dds unless they do zero damage. ‘Rubbish’, ‘low’, ‘inadequate’, ‘useless’ are all qualitative judgements. You might not like my dps, whether it’s 6 or 6 million. But it’s still dps. Damage dealing is a continuum. Now you can argue that low dps dds in random vet content let down their group (you can’t in normal, because it shouldn’t be an issue and everyone has to start somewhere), but you can’t say they have cheated them.

seerevaloc wrote: »

I'm a MagSorc DD and yes, I'm replacing Mystic Orb with Inner Rage & spamming Hardened Ward and using Bloody Mara to reach 38-40K HP with Shield for fake-tanking in 4-keys only (the calendar is already known, so I'm aware if I can hold agro without needing to kite of that specific boss or not). And almost always I'm leaving a happy team behind. Provided with I'm also contributing DPS nicely, it's like 1 semi-tank, 1 healer, 2 dds + 1 semi-dd.

The most important thing is that I'm telling the team what I'll do at the entrance. I also learned almost all base-game boss behaviors, when to bash, what to interrupt etc. already when I was DD'ing them. Fake tanking is -OK- if you know your job in Base Game veteran (incl. HM for many) dungeons. e.g. I'm aware I can't hold Selene's bear which hitting 60k on me. I don't fake tank there. But CoH2, etc. easy to go through. So it's very much content specific issue.
.

Dude, in what world could that be considered ‘fake’ tanking?

That sounds like rather excellent tanking to me.

(And the thing with Selene’s bear is almost no one can hold it, you have to dodge roll it)

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

With a tank and a healer it would take you 45min-1hour max. Which means that you do need a tank and a healer.

Or we could take 1 tank and no healer and blast through it for less than half an hour :roll eyes: need is totally subjective. We did it with 4 dd not to make it faster, but for fun (one of us left the game ) so again, unless i missed anything, we didnt "need" a tank nor healer.

FierceSam wrote: »

You cannot have fake dds unless they do zero damage. ‘Rubbish’, ‘low’, ‘inadequate’, ‘useless’ are all qualitative judgements. You might not like my dps, whether it’s 6 or 6 million. But it’s still dps. Damage dealing is a continuum. Now you can argue that low dps dds in random vet content let down their group (you can’t in normal, because it shouldn’t be an issue and everyone has to start somewhere), but you can’t say they have cheated them.

First, thanks for the congrats, even though we didnt do it for achievement, or managing it tbh, just for fun (honestly i just dragged them all in)

second of all, again, a tanks job is to hold agro and survive. If he cant do it, it is a fake tank (exactly like you agreed with me). If the person has 12k hp, and agro on his bar, and he dies to boss light attacks, thats a fake tank.
Same way, if a damage dealer, which has NOT ENOUGH DAMAGE TO DEAL WITH MECHANICS is not managing through mechanics, he cant fulfill his role, he is a fake damage dealer, and he is, by fact, cheating on his role in group finder (because he doesnt fulfill the role he signed up to).

The same way, full of fledged dds, and tanks, fully specced to their role, but die because their skill level is not enough for the place, are still fake roles. Because dead tanks dont taunt, and dead dds dont deal damage.

Edit: all my answers are about of course vet DLC dungeons, the only fun dungeons.