Dragonknight wings
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Rahar✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Wings is a very specific ability that requires HIGH magicka sustain to run. Your nightblade would be better off spamming cloak since it does THE SAME THING but its %100 ranged mitigation since you're now invisible, oh and your next attack crits, oh and you're also completely immune to dot damage while in this state.
Your Sorc would end up slotting streak, which MOVES YOU AROUND, is either an unblockable stun, or a skill absorbtion for a shorter time+snare immunity. Basically Its wings but it also moves you around.
Your warden would end up slotting shimmering because It is many times cheaper and gives much needed ultgen, and since wings is too expensive it would mean you can't use stuff like lotus/leeching vines, or bird of prey effectively, rendering you useless as a warden.
So, what about Dks then? On stamina Dk I have already three magicka dumps. volatile armor, cauterize, fragmented shield. around 2700+2k+4050 magicks costs, If I remember correctly. What makes people think I could afford to slot wings without making a meme out of my build?
MagDks run wings but really even they are not a big fan of it. There's a reason sword and board is back on Dk meta. With old wings I was running dual wield / 2h.
So in a nutshell, wings is NOT an ability you would slot on every other class. Quite the opposite its an ability you would NOT touch on many other classes, outside of rare occasions like say you entered Bgs and there are 4 snipe spammers on the enemy team, that sort of thing.
It sounds like you're griping on a different issue, which is that stam dks rely on a lot of magicka-based skills that need stamina morphs. I would agree.
However, I would run wings on those classes, and here's why:
On a Nightblade (mag), I could give up shade and tank a detect pot if I had 50% mitigation in some circumstances, and outright brawl in others. If wings had the major expedition we want in this thread, I'd double run it, because then it'd just be better than shade all-around for escaping bad situations, AND better than RAT. If I was a stamblade, I'd slot it over shuffle in a heartbeat, too.
If I was a magsorc, I'm running streak. There's just no better way to get a good stun on the class. Additionally, the bar space is already pretty tight, but I might be able to fit it in over boundless storm with chudan as the monster set, where it would excel. As stamsorc, it's already better than anything else I have to remove snares (lol shuffle...? if not heavy), so it goes on the bar, at the very least in BGs, where ranged classes are very strong and I'm not always able to engage them. Mag would become pretty tight, so I might run shackle for the mitigation that skill offered alone. Can you imagine a team of stamsorcs in BGs with 50% mitigation to ranged damage, major/minor expo, snare immunity, and maybe 1 dedicated healer? Any bulky stam class, even.
Warden just has a better version. You're right. Rather, it returns mag and gives heroism.
On a templar, though... Imagine the devastation. On stam, not only would I have a powerful cleanse, but I now have 50% mitigation and snare immunity (and maybe major expo) on top of it with a resource I barely touch as it is. My enemies would fear the utterance of my name. Entire villages would burn. The world would be my oyster, and the gods would weep openly. It'd be nerfed in the first 24 hours.
All of that to simply say that I think it's less that wings aren't a powerful skill as-is, but I wanted to suggest that maybe the problem's source is stamDK's reliance on a lot magicka skills. And more on topic, major expo might make an actual good addition to something stamDK actually lacks. There is another side to this, though: should every class have every buff, or just different tools to deal with the same situation?NeRf MaGsOrC1 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
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Very reasonable. As stated above, I should have read the last sentence of his post. A lot of what I said in the post you quoted has to deal with the posters in here calling for the reflect to come back.
50% mitigation is already strong. If I had that skill available to me on any other class, I'd run it. What would you do to make the skill "good", then?
50% mitigation for how many seconds, and at what magicka cost?
THAT part I have an issue with.
It's our identity skill. At the cost as is, I expect the immunity to CC is on par with Race Against Time, or even med armor's skill (Elusive? 1 sec per med worn?), or at the very least DOUBLE the period. I expect wing to stay for at least 10 sec.
I think the old wing is a little unbalanced. Fine. But to take away the reflection AND take away 50% absorption AND shorten it up is just bad all around. There's too many better alternatives, and THAT's bad for a class skill.
A class skill should represent the class' identity. "Stand your groud" knights that's inherently tanky?
Our wings better work.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
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Wing is *** and no DK with a half a brain would use it and expect it to be beneficial.
It sounds like you're griping on a different issue, which is that stam dks rely on a lot of magicka-based skills that need stamina morphs. I would agree.
However, I would run wings on those classes, and here's why:
On a Nightblade (mag), I could give up shade and tank a detect pot if I had 50% mitigation in some circumstances, and outright brawl in others. If wings had the major expedition we want in this thread, I'd double run it, because then it'd just be better than shade all-around for escaping bad situations, AND better than RAT. If I was a stamblade, I'd slot it over shuffle in a heartbeat, too.
If I was a magsorc, I'm running streak. There's just no better way to get a good stun on the class. Additionally, the bar space is already pretty tight, but I might be able to fit it in over boundless storm with chudan as the monster set, where it would excel. As stamsorc, it's already better than anything else I have to remove snares (lol shuffle...? if not heavy), so it goes on the bar, at the very least in BGs, where ranged classes are very strong and I'm not always able to engage them. Mag would become pretty tight, so I might run shackle for the mitigation that skill offered alone. Can you imagine a team of stamsorcs in BGs with 50% mitigation to ranged damage, major/minor expo, snare immunity, and maybe 1 dedicated healer? Any bulky stam class, even.
Warden just has a better version. You're right. Rather, it returns mag and gives heroism.
On a templar, though... Imagine the devastation. On stam, not only would I have a powerful cleanse, but I now have 50% mitigation and snare immunity (and maybe major expo) on top of it with a resource I barely touch as it is. My enemies would fear the utterance of my name. Entire villages would burn. The world would be my oyster, and the gods would weep openly. It'd be nerfed in the first 24 hours.
All of that to simply say that I think it's less that wings aren't a powerful skill as-is, but I wanted to suggest that maybe the problem's source is stamDK's reliance on a lot magicka skills. And more on topic, major expo might make an actual good addition to something stamDK actually lacks. There is another side to this, though: should every class have every buff, or just different tools to deal with the same situation?
Making it a stam morph does not fix how so many other non-class is better at countering ranged attacks.
are you on PC NA? If yes, visit Kaalgron where it's the most populated campaign and I GUARANTEED you 110% that if you see DK flapping it's wing, it'll be Davadin playing EP faction, coz that dumb *** loves cosplaying "Fire and Fury".August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
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It sounds like you're griping on a different issue, which is that stam dks rely on a lot of magicka-based skills that need stamina morphs. I would agree.
However, I would run wings on those classes, and here's why:
On a Nightblade (mag), I could give up shade and tank a detect pot if I had 50% mitigation in some circumstances, and outright brawl in others. If wings had the major expedition we want in this thread, I'd double run it, because then it'd just be better than shade all-around for escaping bad situations, AND better than RAT. If I was a stamblade, I'd slot it over shuffle in a heartbeat, too.
If I was a magsorc, I'm running streak. There's just no better way to get a good stun on the class. Additionally, the bar space is already pretty tight, but I might be able to fit it in over boundless storm with chudan as the monster set, where it would excel. As stamsorc, it's already better than anything else I have to remove snares (lol shuffle...? if not heavy), so it goes on the bar, at the very least in BGs, where ranged classes are very strong and I'm not always able to engage them. Mag would become pretty tight, so I might run shackle for the mitigation that skill offered alone. Can you imagine a team of stamsorcs in BGs with 50% mitigation to ranged damage, major/minor expo, snare immunity, and maybe 1 dedicated healer? Any bulky stam class, even.
Warden just has a better version. You're right. Rather, it returns mag and gives heroism.
On a templar, though... Imagine the devastation. On stam, not only would I have a powerful cleanse, but I now have 50% mitigation and snare immunity (and maybe major expo) on top of it with a resource I barely touch as it is. My enemies would fear the utterance of my name. Entire villages would burn. The world would be my oyster, and the gods would weep openly. It'd be nerfed in the first 24 hours.
All of that to simply say that I think it's less that wings aren't a powerful skill as-is, but I wanted to suggest that maybe the problem's source is stamDK's reliance on a lot magicka skills. And more on topic, major expo might make an actual good addition to something stamDK actually lacks. There is another side to this, though: should every class have every buff, or just different tools to deal with the same situation?
Well my bad. I forgot about templar. I agree they're monstrous enough as they are already.
Regarding stamDks, you nailed the issue, overreliance on magicka abilities to get what others get for cheaper or even free in some cases. So I use volatile armor, caut and fragmented shield right? What do I get out of these three magicka abilities? Good self healing and class passives. Yeah thats right. I waste around 8k magicka to have.... healing passives, class passives and a heal over time. I can use another 4350 magicka to have major brutality with my earthen heart passives. I mean sure these are all very cool looking abilities but they are all designed for MAGICKA FIRST unfortunately. spiked armor is a magicka dot+magic dmg return, fragmented shield is a 1k damage shield in PvP, igneous weapons is major brutality/sorcery, the most common buff in the game.
There are SOO MANY weapon/guild abilities that I find interesting and want to use on my Dk to make it more diverse and interesting, but I can't because at the end of the day I have to slot spiked armor and frag shield , otherwise I literally don't have access to my passives.
Some may argue that it procs minor brutality therefore the costs are justified, which is BULL****. You don't charge warden heals 4k magicka costs just because they proc minor toughness on every tick of healing or they passively proc mending when low hp. In what world class passives are even an excuse for ridicilously expensive abilities? This question also applies to class dots-world in ruin passive relationship, and also helping hands passive-stonefist situation too. In all cases you have overly expensive ability tied to a cost reduction/sustain mechanic. It doesn't make any sense.
Let me ask you a question this time. If I have great cost reduction+sustain passives, but in return all my ability costs are ridicilously expensive, doesn't that make those passives just placeholders?
Meanwhile stamden netch is free, and they get mending by slotting an actual healing skill. nightblades don't have to slot a resistance ability, they get it free out of passives. These are a few examples that enable great flexibility for stamina classes to diversify their builds and give them room for more.
With all being said, that last bold part , is a question I can't answer, honestly both options have pros and cons. I'd choose the latter but the way developers handle it makes me wish if my class was just a fire themed replica of stamden. That way I wouldn't have to suffer this much trying to make a fun build.
So If they're gonna do the ''unique tools'' approach poorly, they might aswell not do it at all since it will only encourage people to play the class that actually works and is fun. (in this case stamden over stamDk.)
I've thought a lot about your perspective over these issues, however I still find it very hard to trust the developers when they don't acknowledge these problems, as problems.Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 22, 2019 11:30PM2 -
Rahar✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Well my bad. I forgot about templar. I agree they're monstrous enough as they are already.
Regarding stamDks, you nailed the issue, overreliance on magicka abilities to get what others get for cheaper or even free in some cases. So the I use volatile armor, caut and fragmented shield right? What do I get out of these three magicka abilities? Good self healing and class passives. Yeah thats right. I waste around 8k magicka to have.... healing passives, class passives and a heal over time. I can use another 4350 magicka to have major brutality with my earthen heart passives. I mean sure these are all very cool looking abilities but they are all designed for MAGICKA FIRST unfortunately. spiked armor is a magicka dot+magic dmg return, fragmented shield is a 1k damage shield in PvP, igneous weapons is major brutality/sorcery, the most common buff in the game.
There are SOO MANY weapon/guild abilities that I find interesting and want to use on my Dk to make it more diverse and interesting, but I can't because at the end of the day I have to slot spiked armor and frag shield , otherwise I literally don't have access to my passives.
Some may argue that it procs minor brutality therefore the costs are justified, which is BULL****. You don't charge warden heals 4k magicka costs just because they proc minor toughness on every tick of healing or they passively proc mending when low hp. In what world class passives are even an excuse for ridicilously expensive abilities? This question also applies to class dots-world in ruin passive relationship, and also helping hands passive-stonefist situation too. In all cases you have overly expensive ability tied to a cost reduction/sustain mechanic. It doesn't make any sense.
Let me ask you a question this time. If I have great cost reduction+sustain passives, but in return all my ability costs are ridicilously expensive, doesn't that make those passives just placeholders?
Meanwhile stamden netch is free, and they get mending by slotting an actual healing skill. nightblades don't have to slot a resistance ability, they get it free out of passives. These are a few examples that enable great flexibility for stamina classes to diversify their builds and give them room for more.
With all being said, that last bold part , is a question I can't answer, honestly both options have pros and cons. I'd choose the latter but the way developers handle it makes me wish if my class was just a fire themed replica of stamden. That way I wouldn't have to suffer this much trying to make a fun build.
So If they're gonna do the ''unique tools'' approach poorly, they might aswell not do it at all since it will only encourage people to play the class that actually works and is fun. (in this case stamden over stamDk.)
I've thought a lot about your perspective over these issues, however I still find it very hard to trust the developer them when they don't acknowledge these problems, as problems.
Thinking on this a bit more, while I agree with the first half of your post and that DKs should have more stam morphs on mag-based skills, this isn't a problem that DK suffers from exclusively, even though they might suffer the most from it. Classes like Templar are nearly immune, but a lot of other stam classes (such as sorc) need a few bones thrown to them so they can afford more investment in these class skills that are supposed to be lending them their identity. Personally, I think that a good place to start would be making buff skills (such as DK's armor, or warden's ice fortress) have both a stam and mag morph that provided decent benefits to each. Since this topic is a little out of the thread's scope, though, I'll move on; however, you have a lot of excellent points here. Getting passives from each class skill line and choosing skills shouldn't feel like a stretch for your class, and where it feels like it is, skills and passives should be rearranged to be better structured. To more directly answer the question you posed to me: Yes, it does make them placeholders. But more importantly, it makes them limiting and not very fun or exciting.
50% mitigation for how many seconds, and at what magicka cost?
THAT part I have an issue with.
It's our identity skill. At the cost as is, I expect the immunity to CC is on par with Race Against Time, or even med armor's skill (Elusive? 1 sec per med worn?), or at the very least DOUBLE the period. I expect wing to stay for at least 10 sec.
I think the old wing is a little unbalanced. Fine. But to take away the reflection AND take away 50% absorption AND shorten it up is just bad all around. There's too many better alternatives, and THAT's bad for a class skill.
A class skill should represent the class' identity. "Stand your groud" knights that's inherently tanky?
Our wings better work.
50% mitigation for 6 seconds is extremely strong on it's own. I think you're really underestimating that because of what wings used to be. I don't disagree that the snare immunity might be due for an increase because of other existing options for that effect, but consider for a second another class's defensive ability: Hardened Ward.
In a CP environment, this maxes out at around ~9-10k if you really build for it (max mag build; limiting), and costs 800 more base magicka while lasting the same amount of time. It does nothing but absorb damage and doesn't grant any sort of snare immunity. 9-10k is around 1.5 frags or snipes worth with 50% mitigation with med-to-high (22k+) resistances. When the ward goes, it's gone. Wings lasts the full 6 seconds no matter what. That's why it's pretty good and often underestimated. The problem comes when you compare it with what it used to be or try to keep it up constantly with other mag skills. You could buff wings, but I'm not sure that would deal with the core issue.NeRf MaGsOrC0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wing is *** and no DK with a half a brain would use it and expect it to be beneficial.
Making it a stam morph does not fix how so many other non-class is better at countering ranged attacks.
are you on PC NA? If yes, visit Kaalgron where it's the most populated campaign and I GUARANTEED you 110% that if you see DK flapping it's wing, it'll be Davadin playing EP faction, coz that dumb *** loves cosplaying "Fire and Fury".
You are sure that fragmented is not over-hyped? I was using it as a default always, but dropped this patch for wings and have no regrets. Cauterize+Vigor+Rally is pretty good healing and source of snare removal and projectile neutering in jabs&glass cannon sorcs meta is good to have. I agree that wings were rather useless in U22-U23... but now they are good counter to many meta builds.
Also consider bewitched skulls.. yes, you'll have notably less WD as a result, but notably more max magicka/stamina (you might afford several stamina glyphs instead of tri-stat glyphs with it). So far I can sustain fossilize+wings (on incoming burst/snare removal, not 100% uptime ofc)+cauterize+volatile with zero investment in magicka recovery. Only basic 515 + constitution + tri-pots/ detect pots +battle roar. Downside is that I receive minor brutality only after fossilizing.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You are sure that fragmented is not over-hyped? I was using it as a default always, but dropped this patch for wings and have no regrets. Cauterize+Vigor+Rally is pretty good healing and source of snare removal and projectile neutering in jabs&glass cannon sorcs meta is good to have. I agree that wings were rather useless in U22-U23... but now they are good counter to many meta builds.
Also consider bewitched skulls.. yes, you'll have notably less WD as a result, but notably more max magicka/stamina (you might afford several stamina glyphs instead of tri-stat glyphs with it). So far I can sustain fossilize+wings (on incoming burst/snare removal, not 100% uptime ofc)+cauterize+volatile with zero investment in magicka recovery. Only basic 515 + constitution + tri-pots/ detect pots +battle roar. Downside is that I receive minor brutality only after fossilizing.
The moment you drop fragmented shield is the moment you become completely inferior to stam warden. Wings against ranged damage , you will have no issues but against everything else you'll just become an easy kill.1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still run wings. Though, I sometimes switch it out for RAT. The mitigation vs all projectiles is noticeably good. Just not good as it used to be as a skill in general minus reflect...Edited by JumpmanLane on November 22, 2019 11:45PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
The moment you drop fragmented shield is the moment you become completely inferior to stam warden. Wings against ranged damage , you will have no issues but against everything else you'll just become an easy kill.
Just look at tooltips with/without fragmented and calculate GCD and you'll see that fragmented will be notably better then extra cast of cauterize only if you had rally at 15+ stacks. And after battle spirit difference will be less then 2k HP (accounting 1k shield) if rally was at max stacks.
In the same time the most bursty classes like magsorc are countered by wings. Wardens... tbh I don't remember any death to them in 1v1 as of late... maybe there are simply no good wardens at PC EU no-CP in my playtime. Most danger for me comes from stamplars and against those snare removal is must have. So in heavy armor it's either wings or FM, but imo lost of burst heal from rally is incomparable to slightly less heal from lack of fragmented.
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Just look at tooltips with/without fragmented and calculate GCD and you'll see that fragmented will be notably better then extra cast of cauterize only if you had rally at 15+ stacks. And after battle spirit difference will be less then 2k HP (accounting 1k shield) if rally was at max stacks.
In the same time the most bursty classes like magsorc are countered by wings. Wardens... tbh I don't remember any death to them in 1v1 as of late... maybe there are simply no good wardens at PC EU no-CP in my playtime. Most danger for me comes from stamplars and against those snare removal is must have. So in heavy armor it's either wings or FM, but imo lost of burst heal from rally is incomparable to slightly less heal from lack of fragmented.
I run rally, cauterize and vigor. I'm pretty sure fragmented shield DWARFS wings when it comes to utility, just mending alone. Forget every other benefit, lets look at how much healing I get out of it in no-cp. Just to give a quick example, vigor goes from roughly 14k to 19k in tooltip, caut goes from 5300 to 6800 and well, it only goes better with rally obviously. This difference on healing only grows as I charge up fury.
And If you don't mind me asking, how do you even get minor brutality without slotting fragmented shield? Stonefist?
Edit : Okay I agree if you can afford it, running wings is better than cauterize. But can you really afford it? What makes caut good is how cheap it is, not how good the heals are.Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 23, 2019 2:34AM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
I run rally, cauterize and vigor. I'm pretty sure fragmented shield DWARFS wings when it comes to utility, just mending alone. Forget every other benefit, lets look at how much healing I get out of it in no-cp. Just to give a quick example, vigor goes from roughly 14k to 19k in tooltip, caut goes from 5300 to 6800 and well, it only goes better with rally obviously. This difference on healing only grows as I charge up fury.
And If you don't mind me asking, how do you even get minor brutality without slotting fragmented shield? Stonefist?
Edit : Okay I agree if you can afford it, running wings is better than cauterize. But can you really afford it? What makes caut good is how cheap it is, not how good the heals are.
For no-CP increase from major mending is exactly 25%, I just checked.
Let's take that average tooltip of vigor and rally will be 15k each and 6k from cauterize. All together 36k over 4 seconds. 25% from this is 9k extra healing. Also fragmented gives ~2k shield. One extra cast of cauterize (instead of fragmented) will bring just a 6k. So after battle spirit difference will be ((9-6)*1.2 (healing received) + 2)/2 = 1.8k HP +1k shield after battle spirit - in case rally was at 15+ stacks. But fragmented costs almost double of cauterize. So basically ~3k extra HP out of execute zone for 1.9k more magicka. vs snare removal and 50% protection from frags, bow procs, snipes, poison injections etc.
Overall in case of resource tower/closed BG maps/keep internal fights fragmented shield is better. But in open world, open BG maps, keep outsides wings are very handy. I guess it depends of playstyle of specific build.
I receive minor brutality from fossilize. I don't know how it works but with 14k maxmagicka (4 tri-stat glyphs+bewitched skulls) basic regen is enough if I use pots with magicka - i.e. tri-pot or detection pot (magicka+cc-immunity+detection). If I won't use pots with magicka then yes, I can't sustain all this.
Edited by MartiniDaniels on November 23, 2019 3:45AM0 -
MizoreReyes✭✭✭Just give Wings major expedition, it will cause less harm to the community than giving it back it's ability to reflect. By doing this we won't really need Race Against Time anymore in PvP. There are so many threads about DK Wings already, this shows us how much of an impact the butcher job of a nerf ZoS did. Also don't base off balance from CP Dueling.4 -
StShoot✭✭✭✭People here act like old wings was balanced.
It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.
Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.
The arguments used here are really dumb.
For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.
If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.
And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.
So you say that the old wings were broken because of the snipe cheese ? great argument....
i cant see why magsorcs were affected it was 1 skill that got countered (frags), with that logic you should also complain about templar ritual (it purges your curse !!!) tbh they are worse off with the current wings.
And i agree with the fact that it was a total counter against magblades, but they should have buffed the magblade instead of nerfing the wings.
I dont know if you have noticed but the wings are gone and magblades are nowhere to be seen in cyro. I said it back in the time when they changed the wings and i say it now, the magblade had AND has other problems than reflects.
To be clear there is a reason why noone is using chains, you sacrifice to mutch and gain to little by slotting it, meanwhile you can stack Marauder's Haste+ steed mundus+rat/boundless on the class with streak (witch btw gives you IMMUNETY [not only a 50% reduction] against projectiles. And outrun even the fastest melee stamina classes with ease2 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
For no-CP increase from major mending is exactly 25%, I just checked.
Let's take that average tooltip of vigor and rally will be 15k each and 6k from cauterize. All together 36k over 4 seconds. 25% from this is 9k extra healing. Also fragmented gives ~2k shield. One extra cast of cauterize (instead of fragmented) will bring just a 6k. So after battle spirit difference will be ((9-6)*1.2 (healing received) + 2)/2 = 1.8k HP +1k shield after battle spirit - in case rally was at 15+ stacks. But fragmented costs almost double of cauterize. So basically ~3k extra HP out of execute zone for 1.9k more magicka. vs snare removal and 50% protection from frags, bow procs, snipes, poison injections etc.
Overall in case of resource tower/closed BG maps/keep internal fights fragmented shield is better. But in open world, open BG maps, keep outsides wings are very handy. I guess it depends of playstyle of specific build.
I receive minor brutality from fossilize. I don't know how it works but with 14k maxmagicka (4 tri-stat glyphs+bewitched skulls) basic regen is enough if I use pots with magicka - i.e. tri-pot or detection pot (magicka+cc-immunity+detection). If I won't use pots with magicka then yes, I can't sustain all this.
I would agree that fragmented shield is a bit overrated, since a lot of stamDK players claim that it is 100% required to run. Imo, this is true in some cases, but not in all. Fragmented shield is by far the best choice if you play with resolving vigor and rally in medium armor with shuffle as your snare removal.
In heavy armor however, you usually can't run rally plus fragmented shield, unless you have a lot of magicka sustain to get snare removal from RAT or wings on top of that. There are basically three options:
a) Run fragmented shield with resolving vigor and cauterize and use forward momentum for snare removal
b) Run rally and resolving vigor (I would still advice to run cauterize on top) with RAT or wings as your snare removal
c) Run fragmented shield with rally and vigor with RAT or wings as your snare removal (requires a lot of mag sustain)
Right now I'm still playing 'classic' stamDK with option a), but I will definitely try out option b) with RAT for mobility. I already played a bit with stonefist, and its definitely viable, so I won't have any problems getting the earthen heart passives.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
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It sounds like you're griping on a different issue, which is that stam dks rely on a lot of magicka-based skills that need stamina morphs. I would agree.
However, I would run wings on those classes, and here's why:
On a Nightblade (mag), I could give up shade and tank a detect pot if I had 50% mitigation in some circumstances, and outright brawl in others. If wings had the major expedition we want in this thread, I'd double run it, because then it'd just be better than shade all-around for escaping bad situations, AND better than RAT. If I was a stamblade, I'd slot it over shuffle in a heartbeat, too.
If I was a magsorc, I'm running streak. There's just no better way to get a good stun on the class. Additionally, the bar space is already pretty tight, but I might be able to fit it in over boundless storm with chudan as the monster set, where it would excel. As stamsorc, it's already better than anything else I have to remove snares (lol shuffle...? if not heavy), so it goes on the bar, at the very least in BGs, where ranged classes are very strong and I'm not always able to engage them. Mag would become pretty tight, so I might run shackle for the mitigation that skill offered alone. Can you imagine a team of stamsorcs in BGs with 50% mitigation to ranged damage, major/minor expo, snare immunity, and maybe 1 dedicated healer? Any bulky stam class, even.
Warden just has a better version. You're right. Rather, it returns mag and gives heroism.
On a templar, though... Imagine the devastation. On stam, not only would I have a powerful cleanse, but I now have 50% mitigation and snare immunity (and maybe major expo) on top of it with a resource I barely touch as it is. My enemies would fear the utterance of my name. Entire villages would burn. The world would be my oyster, and the gods would weep openly. It'd be nerfed in the first 24 hours.
All of that to simply say that I think it's less that wings aren't a powerful skill as-is, but I wanted to suggest that maybe the problem's source is stamDK's reliance on a lot magicka skills. And more on topic, major expo might make an actual good addition to something stamDK actually lacks. There is another side to this, though: should every class have every buff, or just different tools to deal with the same situation?
Wings is bad on any class, even mDK. The 6 secs 50% mitigation on projectiles do not help you as much as you think because the amount of ranged projectiles is not as big as you think. Besides it doesn't help you against melee, or non projectile ranged skills. If you compare 50% mitigation on ranged projectiles with 100% mitigation on all single target sources that cloak provides, or the 100% mitigation on melee skills that streak provides, or even the 100% mitigation shields provide, Wings is a bad skill.
On top of that, being a 6 secs skill with a CD makes it weaker than cloak and streak because it cannot be spammed. If you put a CD on cloak or streak or shields you kill both skills. Imagine you got a shield with 20k life, but you cannot recast it after 6 secs...
The so called 50% mitigation is just a meme. Any DK would do it much better just by blocking, without using magicka for a skill that does not provide anything close to mitigation. Sure, if it was a 50% mitigation to all sources, maybe it could have an interesting use.
And I've not even started mentioning how stupid is to have a 50% projectile mitigation on a class that lacks ranged dmg skills. and that has extra melee range. As a DK you cannot trade ranged attacks against sorcs or NBs, since any weapon ranged attack is much weaker than any sorcs/NBs/ and even templar ranged attacks.
DKs have a much better mitigation option than wings in dodge roll or blocking, and those are not class skills. Both of them are worse than streak and cloak, which are class skills.... is there any logic behind that?Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".
They need to rework chains, both morphs. The pull chain should stun at least long enough to proc lash, the gap closer could as well. I'd gladly drop fossilize for this and run Maim talons.
Chains gap closer was good when empower added 20% damage.0 -
StShoot✭✭✭✭
They need to rework chains, both morphs. The pull chain should stun at least long enough to proc lash, the gap closer could as well. I'd gladly drop fossilize for this and run Maim talons.
Chains gap closer was good when empower added 20% damage.
Nah cc on chain would ruin this game, because than you could just pull ppl into a zerg allday long and they wouldnt have a chance to escape (there are allready players who complain about this )0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
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Nah cc on chain would ruin this game, because than you could just pull ppl into a zerg allday long and they wouldnt have a chance to escape (there are allready players who complain about this )
Chains should have worked like the opposite of bow CC. Instead of blowing you away it should pull you closer, just not completely into melee range. That would have been both cool and fair.
Would allow for some great ''get over here'' moments against ranged playstyles , and allow for a longer CC, without making it broken.
Its also stupid that chains is unblockable/undodgeable, it gives major expedition and also refunds the cost if your target has CC immunity. Overall they brute forced this ability to be viable but it just isn't going to work. Its just an Xv1 skill, nothing else.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Speaking of chains and cc's, this game needs different length of cc-immunity after different effects. For example only 3 seconds after chains, 5 seconds after stun, 6 seconds after knockback, 8 seconds after fear. Fact that chains for free grant same cc-immunity as break free from fear is.. puzzling.1 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭
Nah cc on chain would ruin this game, because than you could just pull ppl into a zerg allday long and they wouldnt have a chance to escape (there are allready players who complain about this )
True. I always forget zerg abuse. Then off-balance would be cool, yea? As is Its kinda buggy and not worth it.Edited by Lokey0024 on November 24, 2019 1:14AM0 -
TrinityBreaker✭✭✭✭✭People here act like old wings was balanced.
It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.
Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.
The arguments used here are really dumb.
For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.
If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.
And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.
Son that skill reflected 4 projectiles for 6 seconds, whichever came first. It also costed 3780 magicka for a class that already has doo doo sustain. Nevermind mind the stamina version of the class. It could cast that skill exactly 3 times before it was OoM. Not to mention there were limitations to what old wings could reflect.Ebonheart for life.
Xbox NA
I am Dog Star.
Khajiit Stam Sorc - Ji'saad Ranajiradh AR 30
Khajiit Mag DK - Kesjhad
Khajiit Magblade - Ji'sava Ak'nir
Fat Khajiit Stamplar - Dro'haniAk'nir - AR 36
Khajiit Stam Dk - Diego Ri'jhad - AR 49
Khajiit Magplar - Dro'nara Ak'nir
Khajiit StamBlade - Ri'artharr Ak'nir
Fat Khajiit Stamden - Dro'hani Warbreaker
Argonian Stam DK - Tiberius Demetros
Khajiit Stamplar - Diëgo Ri'jhad
Fat Khajiit Stam DK - Drö'hani Ak'nir/Dances-With-Alkosh
Khajiit Magden - Arctic Mayhem2 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭People here act like old wings was balanced.
It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.
Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.
The arguments used here are really dumb.
For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.
If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.
And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.
so your saying any of those classes couldn't stun then when wings was not active. wings cost a lot i'm sorry that a abilities makes people think and not just spam one skill. it was not a hard counter it was a medium counter that made range think when fighting. dks don't complain saying purge needs to be removed from the game because it negates 90% of our dmg.
old wings was a completely l2p issue but zos doesn't care about skill thoughtful gameplay. wings is now useless only reason a dk would slot wings now is if they don't have RaT yetEdited by lucky_Sage on November 24, 2019 6:03AMDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc2 -
Shaloknir✭✭✭
True. I always forget zerg abuse. Then off-balance would be cool, yea? As is Its kinda buggy and not worth it.
I agree,
Change empowering chains to trigger off-balance. It would compliment once again the dk playstyle synergizing with whip.
Also major expedition would be a good additional effect on wings. It wont jeopardize the class balance.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Since there is already a source of snare removal and expedition (Race Against Time) I don't think it needs to be duplicated.
As long as they are handing out free purges -- especially to a class which already has nearly every buff in game -- if I were to buff Wings I'd give it 1 free purge on cast. Or Major Evasion. Either would benefit a melee playstyle on a class with no disengage mechanic.lucky_Sage wrote: »wings is now useless only reason a dk would slot wings now is if they don't have RaT yet
People still think it reflects, and most people never really understood how little it DID reflect. So a lot of times it becomes 100% ranged mitigation.
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Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
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Thinking on this a bit more, while I agree with the first half of your post and that DKs should have more stam morphs on mag-based skills, this isn't a problem that DK suffers from exclusively, even though they might suffer the most from it. Classes like Templar are nearly immune, but a lot of other stam classes (such as sorc) need a few bones thrown to them so they can afford more investment in these class skills that are supposed to be lending them their identity. Personally, I think that a good place to start would be making buff skills (such as DK's armor, or warden's ice fortress) have both a stam and mag morph that provided decent benefits to each. Since this topic is a little out of the thread's scope, though, I'll move on; however, you have a lot of excellent points here. Getting passives from each class skill line and choosing skills shouldn't feel like a stretch for your class, and where it feels like it is, skills and passives should be rearranged to be better structured. To more directly answer the question you posed to me: Yes, it does make them placeholders. But more importantly, it makes them limiting and not very fun or exciting.
50% mitigation for 6 seconds is extremely strong on it's own. I think you're really underestimating that because of what wings used to be. I don't disagree that the snare immunity might be due for an increase because of other existing options for that effect, but consider for a second another class's defensive ability: Hardened Ward.
In a CP environment, this maxes out at around ~9-10k if you really build for it (max mag build; limiting), and costs 800 more base magicka while lasting the same amount of time. It does nothing but absorb damage and doesn't grant any sort of snare immunity. 9-10k is around 1.5 frags or snipes worth with 50% mitigation with med-to-high (22k+) resistances. When the ward goes, it's gone. Wings lasts the full 6 seconds no matter what. That's why it's pretty good and often underestimated. The problem comes when you compare it with what it used to be or try to keep it up constantly with other mag skills. You could buff wings, but I'm not sure that would deal with the core issue.
yes and no. i consider its previous version and to be completely honest with you, it's not a staple on my bar anyway. It's functional to stop ranged attacks but when I'm in Cyro full CP, worrying about ranged attacks is at most 30% of my concern. I'm more scared of melee or semi-ranged folks stunning and unleashing combos on me.
Wings was best to shut down bow ganker, and very functional for survavibility when you're bombarded by a dozen sorc (ie. sitting on a RAM while taking a shower of hot oil and a barrage of fire-rings...
So it was great, but IMHO it's not as OP as everybody's been screaming about, and I was not even a Wing-DK back then.
Then comes the nerf, and regardless of the cost and what other classes' skills look like, 50% for 6 sec is GOOD at best. It ain't great or OP. Now consider it's Magicka cost on StamDK and now Wings is completely undermined by lots of other options.
That's what pisses me the most. It's our "signature identity" skill, but ANY class now can do better. Buff wings as mentioned above and it'll deal with the core issue of DK having a signature skill that's effective in supporting the idea of the "tanky class".TrinityBreaker wrote: »
Son that skill reflected 4 projectiles for 6 seconds, whichever came first. It also costed 3780 magicka for a class that already has doo doo sustain. Nevermind mind the stamina version of the class. It could cast that skill exactly 3 times before it was OoM. Not to mention there were limitations to what old wings could reflect.
there it is.MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You are sure that fragmented is not over-hyped? I was using it as a default always, but dropped this patch for wings and have no regrets. Cauterize+Vigor+Rally is pretty good healing and source of snare removal and projectile neutering in jabs&glass cannon sorcs meta is good to have. I agree that wings were rather useless in U22-U23... but now they are good counter to many meta builds.
Also consider bewitched skulls.. yes, you'll have notably less WD as a result, but notably more max magicka/stamina (you might afford several stamina glyphs instead of tri-stat glyphs with it). So far I can sustain fossilize+wings (on incoming burst/snare removal, not 100% uptime ofc)+cauterize+volatile with zero investment in magicka recovery. Only basic 515 + constitution + tri-pots/ detect pots +battle roar. Downside is that I receive minor brutality only after fossilizing.
i use bewitched skulls and New Moon Acolyte. I'm OK on my Magicka with zero mag recover too.
Additionally, i use molten armament (another 4k mag skill) and it triggers both major and minor brut.
no Cauterize coz i play PvE too and FOO is too good to skip.
i use RAT for snare removal.
Heavy armor StamDK btw.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber1 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I literally cringe at all the comments rationalizing old wings. All I can say is: play other classes. I really don't believe any of you actually played magblade/magsorc to be able to objectively judge the skill. Once you actually start playing other classes, your perspective widens and judgement is more grounded.
Like, the most silly thing is how cloak is being used as a way to justify the skill. Let me start by saying cloak is cheesy, and too strong in some situations where it gives 100% immunity against targetted attacks, granted it is not being countered by AoE, unavoidable damage or detect pots. This last bit is important.
I have played both magblade and magdk extensively and can say the comparison is just not justifyable. You can whine all you want, but if you objectively assess both skills, the 3 most important differences become clear, especially when looking at magblade vs magdk. Just set aside your red zone nb hate for a minute. I hate fighting cloaktards too, just as I hated fighting wing spammers on my magblade.
1. Cloak doesn't enable you to keep attacking your opponent, while preventing them from returning any form of counter pressure. When you are in cloak, thats that. Any offensive action breaks it. Old wings would shut down any meaningful offense from the magblade, which means you barely have to heal yourself and as a results it is easy to sustain wings while dishing out non stop damage.
2. Cloak doesn't reflect damage back at the opponent. It just mitigates it. This is why no one ever cried about shimmering shield. Old wings didn't only shut down any meaningful offense, but it also reflected it all back at you. Literally the only choice you had was stay on defensive, tapping resto light attacks while keeping heals + buffs up, and then hoping for that lucky soul harvest + fear + will combo to miraculously 1 shot the dk, just for them the reapply wings and things are gucci again.
3. Cloak can be countered in numerous ways, while old wings could not. If your main damage is centered around projectiles, you were ***. Thats it. Have fun tapping resto light attacks waiting for a lucky burst combo before going back to tapping resto light attacks again.
Any competent dk/magblade just knows this is true. If any magdk ever lost to a magblade in the old wings times, they were honestly hot effing garbage.3 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭People here act like old wings was balanced.
It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.
Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.
The arguments used here are really dumb.
For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.
If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.
And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.
And ball of lightning doesn't hard counter ranged builds either?Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
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sustaining wings is only for magDK.1. Cloak doesn't enable you to keep attacking your opponent, while preventing them from returning any form of counter pressure. When you are in cloak, thats that. Any offensive action breaks it. Old wings would shut down any meaningful offense from the magblade, which means you barely have to heal yourself and as a results it is easy to sustain wings while dishing out non stop damage.
stamDK can't do this.
but for both, at that cost I can't say it's "easy to sustain" for the general population.
what, you're going to tweak the skill based on the 1%
A. I agree for build that can sustain it, having 100% reflect is OP on certain situation.2. Cloak doesn't reflect damage back at the opponent. It just mitigates it. This is why no one ever cried about shimmering shield. Old wings didn't only shut down any meaningful offense, but it also reflected it all back at you. Literally the only choice you had was stay on defensive, tapping resto light attacks while keeping heals + buffs up, and then hoping for that lucky soul harvest + fear + will combo to miraculously 1 shot the dk, just for them the reapply wings and things are gucci again.
B. there's not many build can sustain it. but if you feel like it's too OP, go ahead increase the cost even further.3. Cloak can be countered in numerous ways, while old wings could not. If your main damage is centered around projectiles, you were ***. Thats it. Have fun tapping resto light attacks waiting for a lucky burst combo before going back to tapping resto light attacks again.
by that time the DK will do a gap-closer and you're in trouble. I agree. but im not here to compare wings with cloak though.....August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I literally cringe at all the comments rationalizing old wings. All I can say is: play other classes. I really don't believe any of you actually played magblade/magsorc to be able to objectively judge the skill. Once you actually start playing other classes, your perspective widens and judgement is more grounded.
Like, the most silly thing is how cloak is being used as a way to justify the skill. Let me start by saying cloak is cheesy, and too strong in some situations where it gives 100% immunity against targetted attacks, granted it is not being countered by AoE, unavoidable damage or detect pots. This last bit is important.
I have played both magblade and magdk extensively and can say the comparison is just not justifyable. You can whine all you want, but if you objectively assess both skills, the 3 most important differences become clear, especially when looking at magblade vs magdk. Just set aside your red zone nb hate for a minute. I hate fighting cloaktards too, just as I hated fighting wing spammers on my magblade.
1. Cloak doesn't enable you to keep attacking your opponent, while preventing them from returning any form of counter pressure. When you are in cloak, thats that. Any offensive action breaks it. Old wings would shut down any meaningful offense from the magblade, which means you barely have to heal yourself and as a results it is easy to sustain wings while dishing out non stop damage.
2. Cloak doesn't reflect damage back at the opponent. It just mitigates it. This is why no one ever cried about shimmering shield. Old wings didn't only shut down any meaningful offense, but it also reflected it all back at you. Literally the only choice you had was stay on defensive, tapping resto light attacks while keeping heals + buffs up, and then hoping for that lucky soul harvest + fear + will combo to miraculously 1 shot the dk, just for them the reapply wings and things are gucci again.
3. Cloak can be countered in numerous ways, while old wings could not. If your main damage is centered around projectiles, you were ***. Thats it. Have fun tapping resto light attacks waiting for a lucky burst combo before going back to tapping resto light attacks again.
Any competent dk/magblade just knows this is true. If any magdk ever lost to a magblade in the old wings times, they were honestly hot effing garbage.
Cloak has ton of counters, but only counter to new wings is huge dps. If you are not a full glass cannon sorc you will do nothing to DK with properly timed wings. Another factor discussed is that there are only few sources of snare removal.. ok, RAT is another option but imo not greatest option for heavy armor.. you need decent crit chance to make it worthwhile. Or sacrifice Rally for FM.
Also game is not only 1v1. In XvX one clap of wings and everybody loses interest in you. Nobody wants to dump resources and see laughable numbers.
Block is most powerful DK's protection but it requires S&B. If you run 2H/DW, 2H/bow wings can be your only option to maintain ranged tankiness.
So though I 100% agree than wings need a buff, they are hardly useless. Depends on build, not everybody runs Fury+7th+BS.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
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And ball of lightning doesn't hard counter ranged builds either?
Ball of lightning is the bad morph of streak.
If a sorc is using BoL, he cannot stun proprely, that's why you almost never see it played, streak stun is simply the better morph.
And spamming BoL have a cost increase, so you need to be very carefull with ur mana when trolling.
But even with that, the projectile absorb is too long on streak. No one should be able to 100% counter, even for seconds, someone else gameplay.
DK shouldn't have exepedition on wings, because it would too much of a range counter.
Huge 50% mitigation + snare removal/immunity + major expedition coupled with increase melee range would be too many soft counter to range.
I think buffing the snare immunity duration from 2s to 4-5s would be better. It would make a solid alternative to FM and RaT (defensive version).2