Dragonknight wings

Shaloknir

In my opinion, wings should give us major expedition. Currently wings is a bit costly in comparison to the benefits. It would help the playstyle, because you could close thep gap to melee range better. Its not too much, right?

WillhelmBlack

They should just give it the reflect back.

NBrookus

What if DK had a gap closer that also had major expedition?

MartiniDaniels

NBrookus wrote: »

What if DK had a gap closer that also had major expedition?

MagDK - yes, because chains are synergizing with molten whip.
For stamDK empowering chains are just a trash. When I look at toppling charge I am so jealous. Why one class has stun and off-balance on gap closer, and another has empower and major expedition. Cost is the same lol.

I don't call for templar nerfs, I just think DK needs more juice either to wings or to chains.

Davadin

I'm struggling to put Wings back on my back bar. stamDK here.

there's just so many better options. shield line, fighters line, psijic line....

kalunte

nice try dks...

Ragnarock41

The combat team are one nightblade and one templar main, sooo.. not happening.

Its also very cute of them to completely ignore stamina Dks while reworking the thing. Just as expected from our great dev team. Reworking an iconic Dk skill based on what MAGBLADE mains think.

Shanehere

I would love that. The only reason I use race against time over wings is because of the expedition it gives. I can't handle the mobility without it.

Snare removal, expedition, and reduced ranged damage? Excellent. The expedition also fits the aesthetic of the skill. People would definitely complain though.

Shaloknir

Shanehere wrote: »

I would love that. The only reason I use race against time over wings is because of the expedition it gives. I can't handle the mobility without it.

Snare removal, expedition, and reduced ranged damage? Excellent. The expedition also fits the aesthetic of the skill. People would definitely complain though.

I totally agree 😊

Vlad9425

If you want expedition on your Wings play a warden lol

Banana

Sorcerers would probably find a reason to cry about it.

Zacuel

I miss wings. They should do something with it. I don't care what. Just make it more viable.

MartiniDaniels

Vlad9425 wrote: »

If you want expedition on your Wings play a warden lol

Minor berserk for being slotted will do too

jadarock

Honestly it's on my bar now and against anything other than potatoes or some brain dead npc
Its garbage

Ozazz

yeah right lolllllllllllllll

Shaloknir

Vlad9425 wrote: »

If you want expedition on your Wings play a warden lol

Reasonable opinion. It is currently part of warden class identity. In my opinion though both classes could have wings as a mobility skill. Both wings have another unique element in addition to expedition: warden has minor berserk, dk has ranged mitigation.

Anyway, playing warden is not something i want because i like magdk.

Expedition is just something that would fit dk class identity and playstyle. It wont affect too much class balance. At least i dont think it does.

hakan

make it reflect if enemy is further than 12 meters

Xvorg

NBrookus wrote: »

What if DK had a gap closer that also had major expedition?

Quite useful when you are trying to run away from combat, or your class is labelled as the "stay your ground" class

NBrookus

Xvorg wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

What if DK had a gap closer that also had major expedition?

Quite useful when you are trying to run away from combat, or your class is labelled as the "stay your ground" class

And I run RaT instead of both Chains and Wings for that reason. But the OP asked for Wings to give expedition so they could "close the gap to melee range." That function already exists in the class.

Ragnarock41

NBrookus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

What if DK had a gap closer that also had major expedition?

Quite useful when you are trying to run away from combat, or your class is labelled as the "stay your ground" class

And I run RaT instead of both Chains and Wings for that reason. But the OP asked for Wings to give expedition so they could "close the gap to melee range." That function already exists in the class.

You're acting as if classes have infinite bar space. An ability sometimes needs to fill more than one need to be worth using.

Victor_Blade

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The combat team are one nightblade and one templar main, sooo.. not happening.

Its also very cute of them to completely ignore stamina Dks while reworking the thing. Just as expected from our great dev team. Reworking an iconic Dk skill based on what MAGBLADE mains think.

Stamblade and magplar. I mean look at magicka Nightblade lmoa

Kadoin

Yes, please buff DK more because it's not already the secret #1 go to class stam or mag this patch

Davadin

Kadoin wrote: »

Yes, please buff DK more because it's not already the secret #1 go to class stam or mag this patch

no it's not.

Aedaryl

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

MartiniDaniels

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

Rahar

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

MartiniDaniels

Rahar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

Topic was not about returning reflect to wings, but to give 4 seconds of major expedition to them. Basically if you run typical 2H/S&B stamDK setup there is no source of major expedition. Wings could provide them, that seems logical. As for the warden wings, they give longer major expedition as well as huge boost to damage for simply being slotted.

Rahar

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

Topic was not about returning reflect to wings, but to give 4 seconds of major expedition to them. Basically if you run typical 2H/S&B stamDK setup there is no source of major expedition. Wings could provide them, that seems logical. As for the warden wings, they give longer major expedition as well as huge boost to damage for simply being slotted.

Yup, which is fine. I can see major expo being added.

I guess I replied too fast and missed the last sentence of your original post -- my bad. But a lot of people here are calling for the reflect to come back, which is a terrible idea.

Ragnarock41

Rahar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

His point is that abilities like streak&cloak also fill defensive purposes however they can also be used offensively, and shimmering shield is VERY cheap while offering strong benefits.

So asking for major expedition to be moved from chains to wings is a reasonable thing at this point.

I highly doubt it would make the skill ''good'' for stamDk though, since the issue is that stamDk has other, more expensive magicka dumps already and really can't give up on those.

Rahar

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

His point is that abilities like streak&cloak also fill defensive purposes however they can also be used offensively, and shimmering shield is VERY cheap while offering strong benefits.

So asking for major expedition to be moved from chains to wings is a reasonable thing at this point.

I highly doubt it would make the skill ''good'' for stamDk though, since the issue is that stamDk has other, more expensive magicka dumps already and really can't give up on those.

Very reasonable. As stated above, I should have read the last sentence of his post. A lot of what I said in the post you quoted has to deal with the posters in here calling for the reflect to come back.

50% mitigation is already strong. If I had that skill available to me on any other class, I'd run it. What would you do to make the skill "good", then?

Ragnarock41

Rahar wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

People here act like old wings was balanced.

It wasn't, it was literally the most broken hard counter to bow build, magicka NB and magicka sorc.

Let's add a skill that reflect melee damage then I will agree to buff again reflect hard counter wings.


The arguments used here are really dumb.

For some reason dk decided to need to "have a range counter" while there is other classes that are as mobile as DK and hwo have not, and doesn't complain/struggle without it.

If you want to close the range, use your class gap closer or the weapons one.

And if you want to counter range, slot wings - 50% damage reduction is like permablocking without a shield. This is already huge.

There is one very simple argument. Ball of lightning provides exactly the same as wings but with gap closer/escape tool on top of that. Toppling charge provides stun and off-balance while empowering chains provide 2 empowers (lol) and major expedition. Cost is the same. Many DK abilities are for unknown reason less "juicy" then Sorc's or Templar's. Without calling for nerfs of 2 those classes, we want a slight buff to ours, so our abilities will have same "power budget".

This isn't an argument to buff DK; you're completely off the mark. This is an argument to nerf Ball of Lightning and Toppling.

While all skills should feel sufficiently powerful, many skills overperform to such a degree that it becomes oppressive. BoL is like the old wings, just with a lot of additional effects attached; and the old wings were oppressive enough already.

The only way I ever see wings getting a complete projectile immunity back is if it only lasts for a certain amount of projectiles and damage, a lot like Warden's Crystalline Shield. And even then, while the old wings (kind of) did this, it shouldn't reflect for full damage.

His point is that abilities like streak&cloak also fill defensive purposes however they can also be used offensively, and shimmering shield is VERY cheap while offering strong benefits.

So asking for major expedition to be moved from chains to wings is a reasonable thing at this point.

I highly doubt it would make the skill ''good'' for stamDk though, since the issue is that stamDk has other, more expensive magicka dumps already and really can't give up on those.

Very reasonable. As stated above, I should have read the last sentence of his post. A lot of what I said in the post you quoted has to deal with the posters in here calling for the reflect to come back.

50% mitigation is already strong. If I had that skill available to me on any other class, I'd run it. What would you do to make the skill "good", then?

Wings is a very specific ability that requires HIGH magicka sustain to run. Your nightblade would be better off spamming cloak since it does THE SAME THING but its %100 ranged mitigation since you're now invisible, oh and your next attack crits, oh and you're also completely immune to dot damage while in this state.

Your Sorc would end up slotting streak, which MOVES YOU AROUND, is either an unblockable stun, or a skill absorbtion for a shorter time+snare immunity. Basically Its wings but it also moves you around.

Your warden would end up slotting shimmering because It is many times cheaper and gives much needed ultgen, and since wings is too expensive it would mean you can't use stuff like lotus/leeching vines, or bird of prey effectively, rendering you useless as a warden.

So, what about Dks then? On stamina Dk I have already three magicka dumps. volatile armor, cauterize, fragmented shield. around 2700+2k+4050 magicks costs, If I remember correctly. What makes people think I could afford to slot wings without making a meme out of my build?

MagDks run wings but really even they are not a big fan of it. There's a reason sword and board is back on Dk meta. With old wings I was running dual wield / 2h.

So in a nutshell, wings is NOT an ability you would slot on every other class. Quite the opposite its an ability you would NOT touch on many other classes.


Edit: I have no suggestions to make wings better, since its now an ability that lost its original identity. Its not my job to balance classes without absolutely destroying what makes them unique, Its the developer's job. I'm not getting paid for this mess.