deLioncourt wrote: »

I simply switched out Bloodthirst on my DW skills for Rapid Strikes, and now I do more dps on my stamdk with Rapid Strikes than I do the Stone Giant. Stone Giant is useless garbage.

Yeah... no it isn't.. Just because you got a couple more 1% dps compared to Rapids on a dps test solo doesn't mean it's worse, it just serves a different purpose which peeople seem to not understand. The damage bonus is effective for EVERYONE in your party and is also one of, if not the easiest ways for a Stam DK to proc Minor Brutality and Ult Gen consistantly.

Cost? Why do people think it costs more then other spammables? It's one of the cheapest for a Medium Stam DK in the right conditions. Add more ult gen and you're also getting sustain from more ultimates.

Rapid Strikes, 7 Med, DW Passive = 2700 * 0.86 * 0.85 = 1974
Stone Giant, 7 Med, Earthen Heart Passive = (3443 * 0.86) - 990 = 1971

Practically the same cost in 7 Medium. Where it falls behind is Heavy Armor.

Rapid Strikes, 0 Med, DW Passive = 2700 * 0.85 = 2295
Stone Giant, 0 Med, Earthen Heart Passive = 2453

Consider Helping Hands + Mountain's Blessing now: 3ult/6sec = 0.5ult/sec, that means your also getting + 22.5 stam, mag, health back a second on average. To make this clearer. Let's use Standard of Might.

250 ult cost / 3 ult a second = 84 seconds. 11250 stamina on use. 11250/ 84 = 134 stam/s.

250 ult cost / 3.5 ult a second = 72 seconds. 11250 stamina on use. 11250/ 72 = 156 stam/s

So not only do you get your ult ready 12 seconds earlier, but you get an additional 22 stamina a second. Which while minor, offsets some of the additional cost if you weren't using 7 Medium.

This also means you get a higher average uptime on Standard of Might which gives + 15% damage done. If the duration online is correct, that is 16s/72s for 22% uptime vs 16s/84s for 19% uptime.

Finally, if you're looking at this ability like it should be the BIS for everything PVE and PVP, you're mistaken. It's okay for the ability to be outclassed in PVP or PVE depending on the situation.. that's the intent of every ability in the game. This ability does practically everything MILDLY well. The ability was specifcially designed as a way to offer Stam DK's a spot in a raid as well as class idenity, exactly the same reason they changed Engulfing Flames to be more useful for High Mag/Spell Damage DK's.. AKA DK Healers or Mag DKs. It's a unique buff that they can only utilze to it's max potential instead of just DK Tanks. It should be evident with the cost equalizing identically in a 7 Medium build with a spammable like Rapid Strikes. That should give you a clue that it was designed mostly for PVE.

You should be happy it even includes a stun since they shouldn't be tied to high damage abilities anymore as per ZOS's design philosophy. It only remains because it's tied to a condition.

As far as it stands, you make anything about this ability better and it's going to lose something somewhere else so take your pick.

The only change I can see coming is changing it to a Melee ranged ability. Which I mean is pretty hilarious that people are asking for. Why would you want to lose 8m of range is beyond me, maybe they would up the damage, maybe they wouldn't. Do you really want to risk that :P ? DK's have been asking for a dedicated spammable and a way to proc Minor Brutality reliably since the conception of the game. All this tells me is people will never be satisfied, it does so much. Animations aside, they already said it is a work in progress, so if you want to suggest anything, make it clear what the animation should be like.

Davadin wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

deLioncourt wrote: »

I simply switched out Bloodthirst on my DW skills for Rapid Strikes, and now I do more dps on my stamdk with Rapid Strikes than I do the Stone Giant. Stone Giant is useless garbage.

Yeah... no it isn't.. Just because you got a couple more 1% dps compared to Rapids on a dps test solo doesn't mean it's worse, it just serves a different purpose which peeople seem to not understand. The damage bonus is effective for EVERYONE in your party and is also one of, if not the easiest ways for a Stam DK to proc Minor Brutality and Ult Gen consistantly.

Cost? Why do people think it costs more then other spammables? It's one of the cheapest for a Medium Stam DK in the right conditions. Add more ult gen and you're also getting sustain from more ultimates.

Rapid Strikes, 7 Med, DW Passive = 2700 * 0.86 * 0.85 = 1974
Stone Giant, 7 Med, Earthen Heart Passive = (3443 * 0.86) - 990 = 1971

Practically the same cost in 7 Medium. Where it falls behind is Heavy Armor.

Rapid Strikes, 0 Med, DW Passive = 2700 * 0.85 = 2295
Stone Giant, 0 Med, Earthen Heart Passive = 2453

Consider Helping Hands + Mountain's Blessing now: 3ult/6sec = 0.5ult/sec, that means your also getting + 22.5 stam, mag, health back a second on average. To make this clearer. Let's use Standard of Might.

250 ult cost / 3 ult a second = 84 seconds. 11250 stamina on use. 11250/ 84 = 134 stam/s.

250 ult cost / 3.5 ult a second = 72 seconds. 11250 stamina on use. 11250/ 72 = 156 stam/s

So not only do you get your ult ready 12 seconds earlier, but you get an additional 22 stamina a second. Which while minor, offsets some of the additional cost if you weren't using 7 Medium.

This also means you get a higher average uptime on Standard of Might which gives + 15% damage done. If the duration online is correct, that is 16s/72s for 22% uptime vs 16s/84s for 19% uptime.

Finally, if you're looking at this ability like it should be the BIS for everything PVE and PVP, you're mistaken. It's okay for the ability to be outclassed in PVP or PVE depending on the situation.. that's the intent of every ability in the game. This ability does practically everything MILDLY well. The ability was specifcially designed as a way to offer Stam DK's a spot in a raid as well as class idenity, exactly the same reason they changed Engulfing Flames to be more useful for High Mag/Spell Damage DK's.. AKA DK Healers or Mag DKs. It's a unique buff that they can only utilze to it's max potential instead of just DK Tanks. It should be evident with the cost equalizing identically in a 7 Medium build with a spammable like Rapid Strikes. That should give you a clue that it was designed mostly for PVE.

You should be happy it even includes a stun since they shouldn't be tied to high damage abilities anymore as per ZOS's design philosophy. It only remains because it's tied to a condition.

As far as it stands, you make anything about this ability better and it's going to lose something somewhere else so take your pick.

The only change I can see coming is changing it to a Melee ranged ability. Which I mean is pretty hilarious that people are asking for. Why would you want to lose 8m of range is beyond me, maybe they would up the damage, maybe they wouldn't. Do you really want to risk that :P ? DK's have been asking for a dedicated spammable and a way to proc Minor Brutality reliably since the conception of the game. All this tells me is people will never be satisfied, it does so much. Animations aside, they already said it is a work in progress, so if you want to suggest anything, make it clear what the animation should be like.

i don't mind the range, but the flight time often treated similarly (or worse than) to casting time.

so while it might work well for PvE, it sure ain't gonna work for pvp....

and @Xvorg have given out LOTS of examples in PTS threads that everybody likes, with details too. it's simply better to have instantenous reaction; like rocks coming out of the ground, or your fist teleported to the target, etc...


as for cost, I compare this skill with other "spammables"; Rapid Strike and Dizzying. Since those two other have casting time, it's actually slower than stonefist. Which is great news for SF, but it also means SF eats your stamina a lot faster.... even if it costs "only marginally higher".


i still stand my ground that for PvE, the cost still needs reduction, at least 20 - 30% less. At least.
as for PvP, that flight time gotta go.

or else, i guarantee you, 110%, ZOS can confirm the usage of this skill over the next few months will be ridiculously low..... nobody will *** touch it.

edit: just to clarify, i'm willing to lose BOTH the range and the damage, just to make this a true "spammable".

cheap, effective, instantaneous. like Reverse Strike. That would've passed as a nice spammable, but the damage is low for the first 50% of your enemy's health.....

If you read my part about cost, the cost is actually slightly cheaper than Rapid Strikes in 7 medium, 6 medium would probably break even. If you understand that their design decisions had to include the 990 stamina return (they didn't account for ult gen and stamina return, thus why it's actually cheaper) you will see why the ability costs as much as it does. They balanced it almost entirely for pve group idenity, not pvp. Now that doesn't mean it can't work better for pvp with some minor changes, but if you reduce the cost any further, it will be BIS for everything, and they don't want that.

So yes, in heavy, it ends up +200 more costly than something like Rapid Strikes, but it also does a lot more than Rapid Strikes for pvp.

I believe cost is in a solid position and shouldn't be touched unless the aim is to make heavy more sustainable. Only way to do that is to decrease the base cost to something like 3100, but also decrease the stamina return from 990 to something like 700 as a quick example. From their perspective it must of made more sense to keep it the same 990 for that entire skill line, but instead up the cost of the base ability to even it out in a scenario of 6 or 7 medium, which is where it's designed to be used.

Animation, travel time and distance are all things I'm sure they're working on since they mentioned with the patch it is still a work in progress and they're actively taking in feedback. I think it would still be a solid ability as an instant spammable 5m (7m) range for Stam DK's as you mentioned.

My point: If you want the ability changed, cost is the wrong approach, it is already in a great position and talking about reducing it's cost by 20-30% is dishonest to how the skill actually functions for the purpose it was designed for. As mentioned earlier, the only way is to reduce the passive stamina return (which hurts all abilities in the skill line), while also reducing the base cost.

Focus on the animation and ZOS may listen. (Don't even talk about the utility of the stun every 3rd hit), if it becomes instant with no travel time ZOS may realize how over budgeted the skill really is. You add reduced cost in to the equation and they won't take you seriously.

Idealy, it keeps the stun every 3rd hit as well as damage done to the target, it changes to instant melee to avoid travel time, damage and cost stays the same. That is the best you can hope for. If you ask for too much like reducing the cost, you will lose the stun. If you ask for more damage, you will lose damage done.

Also consider the forums are a vocal minority, just because you think no one will use it, doesn't make it true. I really love the ability for pve and I'm happy they added it. I stand by their decision to make it Earth based as I feel it's a pillar of Stam Dragonknight not explored enough. There is 3 skill lines, not just 1 that make up the idenity of every class.

honestly i dont think it will be BIS just because it will be cheaper than most other spammable BUT I agree, I would wait until the dev are done working with the animation/function.

As for identity, perhaps it's not an issue for MagDK, but as a StamDK I'm really lost to what they want to picture, and StoneFist doesn't help their case.

and hell no on nerfing the passive to 700 stam.

come on, if u play other classes too (and i see from your sig, you do) then u understand DK's passives already hanging by a thread.... nerfing any of those will be the nail in the class' coffin.

Back to cost, I'd still stand by having 200-300 stam cost reduction will be a step in the right direction for this ranged skill. But if ZOS really concerned on making it BIS (personally, every class should have a BIS class-based spammable), sure, nerf the damage by the same proportion. its now, what, 10k on average for 3.4k cost?

make it 9k (10% less) for 3k cost (also 10% less).